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Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey

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On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 02:22:26 -0500, Elizabeth D. Rather  
<erather@forth.com> wrote:
> On 1/24/15 9:57 AM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 11:42:08 -0500, Julian Fondren
>> <julian.fondren@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> KMP: You are inquiring about something for which there is a
>>> lot known, and about which you can learn a lot, but it won't
>>> get you closer to "understand closures".
>>>
>>> Likewise, you can find exchanges in clf where one person will
>>> say "I'm implementing a forth so that I can better understand
>>> Forth" and people will point out that this is not exactly a
>>> direct route.
>>
>> As one in that position, it's more like "I'm implementing a forth
>> and I'm learning forth along the way, even though I don't care to
>> learn that much about forth" and people here will point out that
>> you don't need to understand how forth works in order to program
>> in forth therefore learning how forth works is useless. Which,
>> I think is somewhat absurd ...  At least, that's my grasp on what
>> others here have tendency to say.
>
> I use a lot of things I couldn't possibly build, and only have a general  
> idea of how they work: computers, for example; my iPhone; my car. Most  
> excellent pianists couldn't possibly build a piano. It is quite possible  
> to learn how to write excellent Forth applications without understanding  
> all the internals, and certainly without building one.
>
> I don't mean to discourage anyone from writing their own Forth. It's  
> just that the most successful path is:
>
> 1. Learn how to use Forth to write programs. Keep at it until you're  
> comfortable and your programs are pretty clean. You will then understand  
> how Forth is used.
>
> 2.  Dig further into the internals, by reading the source of the Forth  
> you use (as well as its documentation). You will then understand how  
> Forth works.
>
> 3. If you *then* want to write a Forth from scratch (either for a new  
> platform or just for the fun of it), you will find it a much more  
> rewarding and satisfying project. And what you produce will be much  
> better than anything you could have written before.

That's all fine advice for a novice who is intent on learning forth.

> I have some trouble understanding the motivation you describe as "I'm  
> implementing a forth and I'm learning forth along the way, even though I  
> don't care to learn that much about forth."

I guess you don't recall ...  It came about through another project.
At first, it was just a simple interpreter, not even remotely Forth-like
in C then NASM, both, finally C only.  Next, things progressed over
many years, in starts, stops, various spurts, numerous additions,
rewrites, etc.

> It sounds masochistic.

I've programmed many things without much reason because someone else
requested it, or paid for it, or setup a competition, or because
I wanted to, or because I needed to, or because I need something to
do, or to try out ideas new to me, or because it's a passion or impulse,
or simply because I can, etc.

Deciding to do something code-wise is one of the areas where
programming can be devoid of all logic or reason.  If you want
to call that masochistic, that's fine, but I suspect you've coded
for all those same reasons at some point and perhaps for others.
I.e., I think it's part of the definition of being a computer
programmer.


Rod Pemberton

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Thread

Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-24 01:14 +0000
  Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-01-23 20:55 -0500
    Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-24 07:52 -0800
      Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 08:42 -0800
        Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-24 09:10 -0800
        Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-01-24 14:57 -0500
          Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 14:32 -0800
            Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-01-25 01:37 -0500
              Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 23:32 -0800
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-25 21:23 +0100
          Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-24 21:22 -1000
            Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey empty-buffers <empty.buffersYOU-DONT-WANT-THIS@gmail.NEITHER-THIS.com> - 2015-01-25 17:52 +0000
              Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-26 14:15 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey empty-buffers <empty.buffersYOU-DONT-WANT-THIS@gmail.NEITHER-THIS.com> - 2015-01-26 19:59 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-01-28 22:30 -0500
              Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-26 18:24 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey empty-buffers <empty.buffersYOU-DONT-WANT-THIS@gmail.NEITHER-THIS.com> - 2015-01-26 19:58 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-26 11:27 -1000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey empty-buffers <empty.buffersYOU-DONT-WANT-THIS@gmail.NEITHER-THIS.com> - 2015-01-26 21:52 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-26 18:01 -1000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey empty-buffers <empty.buffersYOU-DONT-WANT-THIS@gmail.NEITHER-THIS.com> - 2015-01-27 10:47 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-01-27 19:08 -0800
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey empty-buffers <empty.buffersYOU-DONT-WANT-THIS@gmail.NEITHER-THIS.com> - 2015-01-28 12:06 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-01-28 13:18 +0100
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-28 08:14 -0800
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-01-28 18:53 +0100
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2015-01-28 22:14 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-01-29 08:14 +0100
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey empty-buffers <empty.buffersYOU-DONT-WANT-THIS@gmail.NEITHER-THIS.com> - 2015-01-29 00:21 +0000
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-01-28 20:05 -0500
                Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-01-29 03:33 +0100
              Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-05-09 02:15 +0200
            Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-01-25 17:35 -0500
        Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-25 00:37 +0100
          Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-24 21:08 -1000
        Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-25 15:36 +0000
      Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-01-26 17:24 +0100
  Re: Don't be a bit-twiddling monkey hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-23 21:56 -0800

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