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Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 10:47:20 -0400, Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:

> On 7/30/15 9:05 PM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 2015 21:56:55 -0400, Elizabeth D. Rather
>> <erather@forth.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/30/15 8:22 PM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 30 Jul 2015 01:40:11 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> Not intending to rain on anyone's parade, just asking a question.
>>>>
>>>> So, you're willing to reign on the people's parade? ...  ;-)
>>>>
>>>>> Why does the forth community care if the FPGA development tools are
>>>>> open source?
>>>>
>>>> No ...  It's not open source that the Forth community wants.  It's free.
>>>> Not "free" as in "free" beer like open-source software, but "free" as
>>>> in truly free.  No cost.  No money.  No license.  No encumbrances.
>>>>
>>>> Why?  Because, that's the way the Forth community has always done it.
>>>> Historically, they never copyrighted anything and gave everything they
>>>> created away for free.
>>>>
>>>> You don't have to believe me.  Go look for yourself.
>>>
>>> "Always done it"? FORTH, Inc was founded in 1973. FIG didn't come along
>>> until 1977-8, largely inspired by the success of FORTH, Inc. (figFORTH
>>> was based on FORTH, Inc.'s microFORTH, which was introduced in 1977). In
>>> the 1980's, there was a thriving market in commercial Forths, with a
>>> number of vendors producing products of varying quality, including MPE.
>>> MPE and FORTH, Inc. are the only remaining commercial vendors, but our
>>> roots go way back.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but, unfortunately, those are insignificant percentage of the
>> overall Forth community over time.  fig-Forth took over.  fig-Forth
>> code and interpreters are still working to this day.  Most of the
>> commercial programs from 1970's and 1980's disappeared when their
>> companies went bankrupt.
>
> What, exactly are you basing this on?

I'm basing that one the multiple hundreds of advertisements in Byte
magazine and Computer Shopper from the 1980's that sold the Forth
language and Forth solutions from companies that are no longer with us.

> Last I heard, California Municipal
> Statistics was not only still alive and well but still using the
> software Chuck and I wrote in the late 70's (which has been enhanced and
> ported to a succession of more modern computers than the original
> PDP-11). The Saudi airport software is still functioning, although their
> computers are long since obsolete. We are in touch with several thousand
> of our long-term customers, and are doing occasional projects for many
> of them. Most of the electrical grid in the US is controlled by a
> network of processors running SwiftX, just to give one example. I'm sure
> MPE can quote a similar track record.
>
> [...]
>
> Creative Solutions shut down due to Don Colburn's deteriorating health,
> but it was thriving. And LMI shut down to enable physician Ray Duncan
> (who always operated it as a part-time venture) to complete a residency
> in neonatology. I didn't actually hear of any bankrupcies.

Citing a few outlying cases of commercial Forth success doesn't change
the fact that the majority of Forth companies died or that the free
Forths are what survived and what people use.  It's like citing Apple as
proof the computer hardware industry from the 1980's is in good health
today, when numerous other computer companies died or exited that industry.

> As for figFORTH, it didn't really survive Forth94 except for hobbyists.
> The current widely used free systems (gForth and Win32Forth) are
> original implementations.

Yes, but a large portion of those fig-Forth systems are still with us
and available for x86 architecture.  I've collected 3 Forths for Windows
(gForth, Win32Forth, bigForth) and I think there is at least one other
free trial version I could get (MPE).  But, I have over a dozen for DOS,
mostly from the 1980's, e.g., from Tom Zimmer, Dr. C.H. Ting, Bill Muench,
etc and a bunch more as open-source C which compiles for Windows, Linux, DOS.


Rod Pemberton

-- 
Scientists now say we'll experience a mini-ice in 2030.
So, I guess we need more global warming today ...

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Open source CPU+open source toolchain foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 17:57 -0700
  Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain mentificium@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 18:36 -0700
    Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 19:15 -0700
  Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 01:40 -0400
    Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 07:11 -0700
    Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2015-07-30 09:39 -0700
    Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-07-30 21:22 -0400
      Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-07-30 20:56 -0500
        Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-07-30 22:05 -0400
          Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-07-31 09:47 -0500
            Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-07-31 23:57 -0400
              Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-01 13:07 +0000
              Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-08-01 10:37 -0500
  Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain mfanyikazi@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 01:46 -0700
    Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 07:55 -0700
      Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 12:06 -0400
        Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-08-04 08:10 -0700
          Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 12:05 -0400
            Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-08-04 14:21 -0700
              Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 18:24 -0400
      Re: Open source CPU+open source toolchain Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-08-06 09:12 +0100

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