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Re: Why smudge?

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On 04/10/2014 01:40, hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 3, 2014 4:30:47 PM UTC-7, Gerry wrote:

[...]

> I doubt that Pelc thought that this "was not considered important enough to fix." More likely, he purposely strives to undermine anybody's independent effort to write a cross-compiler, because cross-compilers are how he makes his money primarily. This is also why he made sure that SMUDGE was not in ANS-Forth --- the only people who need SMUDGE are those writing cross-compilers --- people writing Forth application programs are happy so long as : and ; behave as if they are internally using SMUDGE and UNSMUDGE (aka HIDE and REVEAL) --- weirdly enough, the ANS-Forth document requires : and ; to behave as if they are using SMUDGE and UNSMUDGE, but makes no mention at all of SMUDGE (not even in the section on porting programs from old standards to ANS-Forth).
>

You shouldn't ascribe machiavellian motives to everything that someone 
does. After all Stephen Pelc is not listed as a (presumably voting) 
member of the ANS Forth Technical Committee, only as a contributor. I 
prefer the cockup side of the cockup vs conspiracy theory (look up 
Hanlon's Razor that I hadn't previously heard of before. Off topic: as 
an aside that led me to Sturgeon's Law which I like).

> Are you writing a cross-compiler?

I wrote one in about 2005/6 which I have been using ever since. I used 
the ideas given in the Forth cross-compiler paper regularly mentioned on 
c.l.f. That uses wordlists. However other aspects of my cross-compiler 
are now over-complicated and it needs a simplifying re-write.

> I can't think of any other reason why you would be doing word-list manipulations at compile-time inside of a colon word.

I think I hit the problem in the quotations code you mention below. I 
worked around the problem so the details are a bit hazy now. I think it 
is during the scanning phase where words like ; [: ;] S" etc need to do 
something and they are (re)defined in a separate wordlist. I believe a 
similar technique is used in systems that have different wordlists for 
interpreter and compiler states. Wordlists are handy for a domain 
specific language that has words overlapping standard Forth word names. 
Also some people use wordlists to define private words in modules.

> I'm writing one for the ARM Cortex-M3 right now. If you are interested in getting involved, contact me by private email.

Thanks for the offer, I've got too many things on my plate in the 
foreseeable future.

> I liked your quotation code that you sent me

Thanks

[...]

> If your "it" referred to PREVIOUS, that is unlikely --- I don't think this is inconsistent --- more likely, it was QUIT that was called due to the crash, and it did an ONLY. I think that it is okay for QUIT to do ONLY because we want to get back to a rational state.

I prefer that QUIT does the minimum so that if a program hits a QUIT I 
can investigate the state of the system when it went wrong (if it did).

> I do wonder at why ONLY doesn't leave FORTH on the top of the search-order though --- putting us back in the REPL without FORTH in the search-order is not exactly putting us in a "rational state."

Dunno, but if it did it would be better with a different name. ONLY does 
the same thing as -1 SET-ORDER so it does seem redundant in a standard.

[...]

> all of the word-list jugglers have access to LOCALSVAR just like any other wid.
>
>> I agree that system wids should
>> not be placed in the search order.
>
> It would have actually be quite easy to implement this correctly. Pelc could have put his locals in LOCALVARS but not put LOCALVARS in the search order. He could have just written FIND so that it does a SEARCH-WORDLIST of LOCALVARS first (giving LOCALVARS the "privileged position" that ANS-Forth requires), and then done a normal FIND of the search-chain.

Yes that's essentially what my system does and is simple to implement.

[...]

> BTW: Gerry --- did you know Ray Duncan?

No, I've only seen his name mentioned on c.l.f, apart from what you say 
I have no idea what he did.

> He didn't fix two bugs in UR/Forth that I told him about. For the most part though, he was a good guy and his UR/Forth was a good system --- it would have been difficult for me to write MFX in any of the other Forth systems available at that time.

-- 
Gerry

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Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-09-30 19:25 -0700
  Re: Why smudge? november.nihal@gmail.com - 2014-10-01 08:54 -0700
    Re: Why smudge? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-01 19:09 +0000
  Re: Why smudge? november.nihal@gmail.com - 2014-10-01 10:16 -0700
    Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-01 18:54 -0700
  Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 15:31 -0700
    Re: Why smudge? Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-02 16:35 -0700
      Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 17:02 -0700
        Re: Why smudge? Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-02 17:51 -0700
          Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 18:50 -0700
        Re: Why smudge? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2014-10-04 00:30 +0100
          Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-03 17:40 -0700
            Re: Why smudge? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-10-03 23:00 -0700
              Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-04 21:14 -0700
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-05 03:42 -0500
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! Enoch <emc.consultants@gmail.com> - 2014-10-05 10:43 -0700
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-05 20:21 -0700
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-06 03:58 -0500
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-05 17:09 -0700
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-06 11:15 -0700
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-06 18:52 -0700
                More ranting Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-07 03:48 -0500
                Re: More ranting albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-07 12:43 +0000
                Re: More ranting Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-07 16:23 +0200
                Re: More ranting "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-16 01:03 -0400
                Re: More ranting Just Ian <superian@gmail.com> - 2014-10-16 07:14 -0700
                Re: More ranting Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-16 13:23 -0700
                uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-07 15:36 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-07 22:15 +0200
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) mhx@iae.nl - 2014-10-07 15:07 -0700
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-08 03:11 +0200
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-08 13:25 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-09 16:22 -0700
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-17 21:58 -0400
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2014-10-12 11:18 +0200
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals (was: More ranting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-08 12:35 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-07 15:27 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-08 12:56 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-08 08:24 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-08 15:32 +0000
                Simplified automatic scoping (was: uninitialized ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-08 16:06 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-08 11:57 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-08 12:18 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-09 14:19 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-09 14:42 -0700
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-09 14:07 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-09 10:44 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-10 16:03 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-10 13:35 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-11 10:53 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-12 11:34 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-15 12:44 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-15 14:34 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-15 15:03 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-15 11:10 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-16 12:19 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-17 03:56 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-17 07:48 -1000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-17 19:26 -0700
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-18 12:55 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-18 13:21 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-18 08:44 -1000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-19 09:53 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-20 12:48 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-20 16:24 -0400
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-20 10:30 -1000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-20 16:23 -0700
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-26 04:16 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2014-10-26 11:32 +0200
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-10-26 14:27 +0000
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-26 13:56 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2014-10-26 20:32 +0200
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-26 16:18 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-26 15:05 -0700
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-26 17:53 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-26 16:30 -0700
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-27 01:45 -0400
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-27 12:21 -0500
                Re: uninitialized and implicitly initialized locals Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-10-26 17:57 -0500
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2014-10-06 20:55 +0100
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-06 16:05 -0700
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2014-10-09 07:36 +0100
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-10-10 01:52 +0000
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-09 19:56 -0700
                Re: Pelc's effort to sabotage cross-compiler writing has a work-around now! "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-17 23:11 -0400
            Re: Why smudge? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2014-10-05 11:05 +0100
              Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-05 19:48 -0700
                Re: Why smudge? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2014-10-06 07:53 +0100
                Re: Why smudge? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-05 21:29 -1000
              Re: Why smudge? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-09 15:16 -0700
              Re: Why smudge? "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-16 01:03 -0400

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