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Re: Integer cosine function

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Integer cosine function
Date 2013-02-26 15:11 +0100
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <kgifrf$7ga$1@online.de> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <slrnkif6cd.db8.zbigniew2011REMOVE@Tichy.myhome.org> <kg87bo$ss9$1@online.de> <55e44f69-28e2-41ee-8248-4f0bd54b114a@l13g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <kg92jf$g5g$1@online.de> <eee0b2aa-c5f5-4303-86f3-6bfcadc9fa73@ru10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>

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Hugh Aguilar wrote:

> On Feb 22, 5:30 pm, Bernd Paysan <bernd.pay...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> I'm talking about Gforth EC, which is a "traditional" all Forth+assembler
>> controller Forth.  It reuses the Forth part of Gforth (slimmed down a
>> bit), and does the stuff that are primitives in C in a mixture of
>> assembler (real primitive) and Forth (replacement code).  The problem
>> with you is that you have some emotional reasons against Gforth, and
>> therefore you ignore all facts about it.
> 
> I had never heard of Gforth EC prior to your mention above. What
> threading scheme does it use? What processors is it for? The PIC24? Is
> it a cross-compiler or an on-board system?

Gforth EC is an on-board system.  The best-supported Gforth EC port is for 
the R8C, we have some other ports like to the 6502 and the 8086 (16 bit DOS 
program), which aren't tested regularly.  It uses classical indirect 
threading, but well, the threading scheme is actually up to the porter, you 
can also implement direct threading if you want.  Gforth EC requires a 
dozend primitives to get going, and a few more to get to acceptable speed.

> I have been strongly opposed to Gforth since the moment that I heard
> about it. I avoid Gforth like the plague.

You didn't really hear about it.

> I first heard about Gforth from C programmers. When I mentioned that I
> program in Forth, and that I think Forth is a better language than C,
> this was met with a lot of derisive laughter. I was informed by the C
> programmers that Gforth is written in C, which "proves" that C is
> superior to Forth --- that Forth is just a toy interpreter similar to
> Lua or Python or whatever.

Ah.  Well, this explains the bullshit you say about Gforth: You heard it 
from idiots; which explains your distorted view of reality.  They mocked you 
to have some fun.

Gforth (the non-EC-version) uses C as language for the "primitives", instead 
of using assembler.  The majority of Gforth is written in Forth, including 
the generator of the C code for the primitive, because those are actually 
written in "vmgen", a language that does the tedious task to create the C-
based primitives.  Most C people absolutely hate it when we tell them we use 
C as portable assembler.  They say "it's meant to be a high level language" 
- no, it's meant to be a portable assembler, it's absolutely no good at HLL.  
Go is probably the best approach at HLL from the C-like languages, and it 
has several Forthish things in it (multiple return values, fast compiles).

For Gforth EC, we simply leave the C part away, and replace it with hand-
written assemlber and Forth.  If C was such a good language, we couldn't 
easily replace it with pure Forth and assembler, and those big parts of 
Gforth which are written in Forth would be actually written in C, wouldn't 
they?  We probably wouldn't need this vmgen stuff, because writing the 
primitives completely in C would be a piece of cake, no intermediate 
language needed.

> I had never even heard of Gforth at that
> time. I was told that the "Forth leadership" (that means yourself,
> Anton Ertl, etc.) have determined that C is the best language in the
> world, which is why they wrote Gforth in C --- of course, the C
> community already knows that C is the best language in the world, so
> they don't really need you guys to agree with them, although they
> think that it is amusing that you do agree with them.

Each time the C leadership (the GCC compiler team) manages to break Gforth 
for no good reasons other than "this code isn't standard", we curse this 
design decision.  We then yell at Andrew Haley ;-).

> I just ignored Gforth for many many years because I considered Gforth
> to be a betrayal of everything that Forth is about. I only recently
> downloaded it (after I started visiting c.l.f.) so I could test my
> novice package on it --- Gforth has bugs

You know that you should report bugs, because otherwise, they will never get 
fixed.

> , but I worked around them in
> the novice package (this is also true of Win32Forth and SwiftForth,
> which are every thing that I've tested so far). I considered using
> Gforth as the platform for my cross-compiler, but it has too many
> serious problems that will never get fixed

Yes, because you don't report them.  How can we know what kind of problems 
you have if you don't tell us?  We might not listen to you, if your bug 
report is just full of diatribe, but if you can explain what's going wrong 
and what should be the right way to do it, we might see what's wrong.

> , and so it is unsuitable. I
> have no intention of ever using Gforth for anything --- I think it is
> crap --- it was written by and for C enthusiasts, for the purpose of
> promoting C as the "god language" (Rod Pemberton's term).

You are babbling bullshit.  I've killfiled Rod Pemberton a long time ago, 
his bullshit is clearly worse than yours.  I don't think C is a "god 
language".  It is just available everywhere, and helped us to get Gforth 
quickly up and running on the half a dozend RISC chip that were popular back 
when we started.

> Also, I
> think that Gforth was purposely crippled so that it would be slower
> than SwiftForth --- because Forth Inc. would have kicked all of you
> off the Forth-200x committee if you wrote a publicly-available Forth
> system that was faster than SwiftForth ---

Haha.  Again, you are completely uninformed.  Anton Ertl strted the 
Forth200x effort, and it took some years until someone from Forth Inc. came 
over to participate.  Leon Wagner certainly doesn't dominate the Forth200x 
process, he's just one participant and has exactly one vote.  We try to 
reach rough consensus, but Forth Inc. certainly can't veto anything.  Or 
kick anybody out.

Your theory is just crazy.  Gforth's goal is to sacrifice spead over 
portability, but I'm thinking about adding an analytical backend for at 
least x64 and ARM (Anton has the idea to use C to generate the code for less 
popular platforms, but the compile speed will be really slow).  You have 
argued that I can't do that, because it's all written in C, but trust me, 
you are totally wrong here.

> so you cow-towed to
> Elizabeth Rather and crippled Gforth so as not to embarrass her. Forth
> Inc. only tolerates the Forth community so long as the Forth community
> is willing to suck --- I refused to publicly say that my code sucks,
> which is why Elizabeth Rather turned against me --- if I had publicly
> sucked, then I would have remained in Elizabeth Rather's good graces
> (she would praise me to the sky, just as she does Passaniti) ---
> sucking is what comp.lang.forth is really all about.

And so your rant turns against to Elizabeth Rather... come on, poor guy.  It 
helps to be nice to each others.  I wouldn't dare drink a beer with you, 
because I suppose it will soon end in a bar brawl.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Thread

Integer cosine function Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-16 07:35 -0800
  Re: Integer cosine function mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-17 13:57 +0200
    Re: Integer cosine function Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-17 09:40 -0600
      Re: Integer cosine function "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-17 07:51 -1000
        Re: Integer cosine function mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-17 19:06 +0200
          Re: Integer cosine function anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-18 14:46 +0000
          Re: Integer cosine function Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-19 20:01 +0100
            Re: Integer cosine function mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-19 21:34 +0200
              Re: Integer cosine function Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-19 21:46 +0100
            Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-19 15:55 -0800
              Re: Integer cosine function Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-02-21 00:59 +0100
        Re: Integer cosine function Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-18 09:19 -0800
          Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-18 14:27 -0500
          Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-18 20:53 +0100
            Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-18 19:10 -0800
              Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-19 13:13 +0100
              Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-19 23:04 -0500
            Re: Integer cosine function Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2013-02-20 10:00 -0800
              Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:04 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 19:03 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 02:45 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-22 02:32 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 16:01 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-22 22:07 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-23 10:27 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-22 03:59 -0600
                Re: Integer cosine function Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-22 02:30 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 15:56 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-22 16:13 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 17:45 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-22 18:44 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 19:19 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-22 14:43 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-23 01:30 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-22 21:51 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 01:43 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 17:55 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 21:01 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-25 23:22 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-26 15:11 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 08:05 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-27 22:14 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 22:56 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-01 21:37 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-03-07 13:12 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 08:00 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-01 21:38 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-02-28 16:55 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-01 21:38 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-03-04 11:08 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-04 03:39 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-04 20:49 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-05 10:20 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-07 00:12 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-08 04:21 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-04 20:50 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-03-05 07:16 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-06 17:56 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-07 00:24 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-07 07:34 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-02-28 12:57 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-28 17:07 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-28 19:37 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-01 10:56 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-01 13:52 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-05 17:48 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-03-13 17:44 -0400
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-01 21:36 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-01 19:14 -1000
                Re: Integer cosine function mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-02 09:34 +0200
                Re: Integer cosine function kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-03-02 09:06 -0600
                Re: Integer cosine function Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 08:53 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-26 16:59 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-27 00:52 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-27 04:07 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-05 20:51 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-05 17:58 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-06 16:39 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-06 14:21 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-07 00:11 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-06 23:44 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-06 16:24 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-07 01:59 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-06 19:48 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-07 16:22 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-06 23:37 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-23 09:54 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-05 21:03 +0000
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-05 15:59 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-05 16:38 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-22 12:07 -0600
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 19:39 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-22 09:23 -1000
                Re: Integer cosine function Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:44 -0600
                Re: Integer cosine function Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-22 13:00 -0800
                Re: Integer cosine function Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-23 01:09 +0100
                Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 21:16 -0500
                Re: Integer cosine function rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-22 20:28 -0500
  Re: Integer cosine function Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2013-02-27 07:59 -0800
    Re: Integer cosine function Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 08:48 -0800
      Re: Integer cosine function Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2013-02-27 10:23 -0800
      Re: Integer cosine function Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2013-03-15 10:14 -0700
        Re: Integer cosine function Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:19 -0700
          Re: Integer cosine function Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:28 -0700
            Re: Integer cosine function Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2013-03-15 21:13 -0700

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