Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design?

Date	2015-06-02 07:36 -1000
From	"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Organization	FORTH, Inc.
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design?
References	<mkjo13$ln0$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID	<DN-dnfbdXLgIdPDInZ2dnUU7-I2dnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink)

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On 6/1/15 10:05 PM, rickman wrote:
> I was thinking about a timing issue and recalled that Chuck Moore had to
> write code to test his idea that he could use timing loops in the GA144
> to control a video display.  The timing loops didn't work and he had to
> add a crystal oscillator.  I think instead he ended up using a ceramic
> resonator because he couldn't get the crystal to start up reliably.
> Neither of these results were unforeseeable.
>
> I also remember taking my swing at the GA144 and through analysis
> realized the bottleneck in the design would be the memory performance.
> So I tried to analyze a sync DRAM interface only to be limited by the
> timing data provided for the GA144.  When I asked for more detailed
> timing info on the instructions for comms and I/O I was told I didn't
> need that info, I should just build the design code it up and see if it
> works.  When I said that was not the way I work, rather I do analysis
> before I design I was told that was how that person had been doing Forth
> design for 40 years, by building and testing.
>
> To me, when I should be able to do analysis to determine limitations and
> feasibility, it just seems silly to spend time on building and testing
> only to find things don't work.  I know I would never try to use timing
> loops to generate video signals.  I think a simple analysis would show
> the lack of stability.  Timing data is just so basic to the definition
> of a digital device that I can't see any reason to not want to use it to
> save days or weeks of development and testing that might well prove
> fruitless.
>
> Is it typical in the Forth community to code things up rather than to
> think them through?
>

There are ways and ways of "thinking things through." Artists think with 
a brush or pencil in hand. Writers often just start writing to let their 
thoughts emerge, and then try to shape the result into something.

In the 70's and 80's it was fashionable to design software programs 
using huge modeling and design tools before writing any code, because it 
took so long to compile programs and they were difficult to change. A 
couple of times FORTH, Inc. was given extensively flow-charted programs 
to code, and every time we were able to come up with radically different 
designs that worked much faster and better.

Forth's interactivity and flexibility make it a great design tool. Many 
people who are constrained to use a "more mainstream" language in 
projects write a first version in Forth, as a proof of concept, because 
it's such a good design tool.

If you're basically a hardware guy, it's natural for you to "think 
things through" with circuit diagrams or a breadboard, but for a person 
like Chuck who "thinks in Forth," it's what works for him.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

Thread

Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 04:05 -0400
  Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 09:52 -0700
  Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 09:55 -0700
    Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-02 10:09 -0700
  Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-02 10:01 -0700
  Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-06-02 07:36 -1000
    Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2015-06-05 02:50 -0700
      Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-05 11:32 +0000
        Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2015-06-05 05:01 -0700
          Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 17:04 -0400
        Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-07 23:12 -0700
          Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-08 09:48 +0000
      Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-07 20:59 -0700
        Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2015-06-10 05:59 -0700
          Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-06-10 09:05 -0700
            Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-06-10 09:28 -0700
              Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-10 10:51 -0700
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-10 14:17 -0400
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-06-10 20:20 +0200
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-10 15:03 -0400
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-06-10 22:06 +0200
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-10 19:13 -0400
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-06-11 02:59 +0200
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-10 21:41 -0700
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2015-06-11 00:40 -0700
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-06-11 01:24 -0700
                Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-11 05:33 -0400
            Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-10 10:37 -0700
              Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-06-11 00:17 -0700
            Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-06-10 18:13 +0000
  Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-06-02 14:21 -0400
  Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-06-02 14:27 -0400
  Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? Bob <bob@none.com> - 2015-06-02 16:04 -0400
  Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-03 05:17 +0000
  Re: Is Forth About Tinkering Rather than Design? "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-06-03 03:07 -0400

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