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Re: Stoked

Path csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!mx02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Stoked
Date Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:18:48 -0800
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rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> This discussion is not really going anywhere.  You are picturing a
> very simple system that is self contained (of questionable value) with
> limited functionality as your entire development system.  You don't
> seem to appreciate the need for inter-working, communication or backup
> et. al.  Constructing a full blown development system is a big deal.
> That's why no one does it.  They use computers running an OS with tons
> of support software.

1. Back in the day (before my time) real development was done on such
systems and people gushed about how productive it was.  I have my doubts
but it sounds interesting.

2. I don't actually see such a system as the entire development
environment for complicated applications.  I see writing the app using a
PC and installing it on the little board along with the pure Forth dev
environment, and delivering it that way to users.  The users could then
configure and modify the code if they wanted, without needing specific
PC software.  This seems like a reasonable way to (e.g.) set parameters
or put in small patches, that might involve rebuilding the interpreter.
They could also use a PC environment if the internal Forth stuff got to
be too constraining.

> To me "PC" includes whatever platform you are running including a cell
> phone.  What software are you imagining?  There typically has to be a
> terminal emulator and a flash burner.  

There are terminal emulators for everything, e.g. type "terminal
emulator android" into a search engine.  There would be in-circuit
programming, so no flash burner.  There would have to be a way to
upload/download the flash contents through the terminal port, as hex
dumps or whatever, so you could back it up, use source control, etc.

>> my ARM board is in France... I'd rather... code the
>> non-hardware-specific parts as much as possible without the hardware.
>> I don't even own one of those fancy MSP430 boards at the moment.
> I'm not sure why there would be hardware specific stuff.  Isn't this
> under an OS?  Do they even let you access the hardware?

Sorry, two things conflated.  1) the ARM board runs Linux and I
basically use it as a small dedicated server, no special hardware.  I
might try to run Mecrisp on it (there is a Linux port) but am not yet
doing that.  2) The MSP430 (my app target) has no OS.  The idea is to
write the app under Linux or under emulation, then port it to the
Launchpad.

> That's great, but how "total" can it be?  Won't it need a PC to
> provide storage, etc?  How does the user back up the info and
> propagate it to other units?

Most terminal emulators have ways to upload and download files.  And
those boards are quite powerful!  The original Macintosh had 128k of ram
and a 400k floppy and 64k of rom, so a lot can be done with those
resources.

> The board appears to have no I/O and very little board level
> documentation. I guess the MOD-WIFI-ESP8266-DEV is more like what I
> need.  I would probably port Mecrisp to it if I can figure out what
> CPU it uses and how to use it.

The cpu uses a MIPS-descended architecture with a more compact
instruction set.  There is a GCC port for it.  You'll have to retarget
the Mecrisp compiler but that is probably doable.

You want to look up ESP8266, the chip type.  There are a lot of other
boards using it, including Chinese ones for around $2 each on ebay.  You
could also look at the Adafruit Huzzah breakout page
(www.adafruit.com/products/2471) which might point to better docs.  The
Huzzah board runs Lua I think someone even got Micropython running on
the 8266.  www.esp8266.com has a lot of other info about these systems.

Espressif is doing a follow-on to the 8266 that has both wifi and
Bluetooth:

  http://hackaday.com/2015/07/13/new-part-day-the-esp8266-killer/

The Mecrisp port for that one might be easier, since it uses a Cortex M4
core.

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Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:04 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:18 -0700
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 12:35 -0400
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:54 -0700
        Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 10:35 -0700
        Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 11:21 -0700
        Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 14:24 -0400
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:12 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:31 -0400
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 14:55 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 01:36 -0400
          Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 06:01 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:22 -0400
          Re: Stoked Marcos Cruz <use_the_contact_page@programandala.net> - 2015-11-07 17:50 +0000
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 13:04 -0500
              Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 10:19 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 08:29 -1000
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-07 13:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 13:33 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 16:40 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 14:25 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 18:03 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 15:22 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:13 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 22:35 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:58 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 23:17 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 02:49 -0500
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 00:06 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:40 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 15:18 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 13:31 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 17:19 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 20:49 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:57 -0500
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-11 22:24 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 23:34 -0800
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:03 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 19:37 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 15:24 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 13:18 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 16:40 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 20:59 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 01:50 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 23:11 -0800
                Re: Stoked forthisit@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 13:47 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 16:27 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-12 12:18 -1000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-13 00:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-11 22:37 -1000
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 23:37 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:19 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 07:47 +0100
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-23 11:27 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 13:43 +0100
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 12:49 -1000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 19:20 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:44 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:23 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:32 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:45 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:53 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 21:25 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 14:09 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-09 05:32 -0500
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:58 +0000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:42 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:11 -0800
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-15 12:50 +0100
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 23:56 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 03:24 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:31 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:57 -1000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 02:18 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 08:33 -1000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:07 -0500
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:49 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:06 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:20 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 22:51 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 02:22 -0500
                Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 04:32 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-10 13:48 +0000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 16:17 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-10 17:26 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 21:50 -1000
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-09 12:15 +0000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 15:09 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-24 09:47 +0100
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-24 12:54 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-24 15:03 +0100
                Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 13:18 +0100
                Re: Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 14:08 +0100
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:30 +0000
                Re: Stoked Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-11-09 18:27 +0100
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-10 00:50 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:52 -1000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:16 -1000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:07 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:58 +0000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 12:00 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:49 +0000
        Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-28 23:24 +0000
          Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 17:30 -0700
          Re: Stoked Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@antispam.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-10-29 02:40 +0000
            Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-29 10:11 +0000
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:07 -0700
            Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:16 -0700
            Re: Stoked franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-10-29 01:35 -0700
            Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-29 10:16 +0000
              Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 03:35 -0700
                Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 03:48 -0700
          Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 11:31 -0700
            Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 12:01 -0700
              Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-29 12:26 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 15:29 -0400
              Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 13:27 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 16:48 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 14:58 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 01:36 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-30 04:34 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:28 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-30 12:05 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:32 -0400
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-30 18:53 -1000
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-11-01 04:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 22:27 -0800
                Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 16:47 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 01:33 -0400
                Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-31 00:55 -0700
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:52 +0000
              Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 14:49 -0700
              Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:50 +0000
    Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 18:39 +0100
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 11:11 -0700
        Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 20:01 +0100
        Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-28 12:34 -0700
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:09 -0700
    Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-10-28 15:25 -0700
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:01 -0700
        Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-29 01:58 -0400
          Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 23:34 -0700
        Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-29 08:56 +0100
    Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-28 18:41 -0400
      Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 05:28 -0700
      Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-12 11:25 -0500
        Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-12 08:43 -1000
          Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-16 13:45 -0800
            Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-17 10:26 -0800
        Re: Stoked Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2015-12-13 23:29 -0500
          Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 22:31 -0800
    Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 15:52 -0700
      Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-29 16:57 +0000
        Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-29 12:36 -0700
          Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-31 14:57 +0000
            Re: Stoked Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 20:25 +0100
        Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 20:39 -0800
    Re: Stoked Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:27 -0700
    Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 05:57 -0700
    Re: Stoked "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-02 13:15 +1100
      Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-02 02:08 -0800
  Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 09:28 -0700
    Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:37 -0700
      Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 10:28 -0700
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    Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-28 18:14 +0000
  Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-10-28 15:20 -0700
    Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:16 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 12:13 -0700
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:34 -0400
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 13:57 -0800
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 17:19 -0500
  Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-09 00:10 -0800
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