Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #43812

Re: Question about checking the stack

Show key headers only | View raw

"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
> I guess those aren't the kinds of mistakes experienced programmers
> make. Conceptually, you're right, but it just doesn't happen that way
> in my experience.

I know I've made mistakes where a built-in word had a different stack
effect from what I thought it had, or where I typed + instead of f+ and
used the wrong stack.  But yeah, that probably gets better with
practice.

> We do different kinds of applications. Mostly equipment control & data
> acquisition, where data rates are pretty high and response times are
> critical. We compete against C and assembler, not Python.

I'd be interested in seeing an application like that sometime.  What I'm
used to in control systems is there's a bunch of configuration and setup
code, there's a user interface of some kind, there's some logging,
there's internal monitoring and failure recovery code, etc. etc., and oh
yes, there's that all-important i/o loop doing the actual data mangling.
That loop uses 99% of the CPU cycles but it's 1% of the code.  The rest
is not speed-critical at all.  In the old days code space was also
constrained, but these days that's less of an issue, even on MCU's.

>> Sure, so compile in optimized mode that turns off the checks.
> Having multiple modes is asking for trouble.

I don't find this at all.  Are we in the same world?  GCC generates up
to 3x faster code with optimization on, but the compile is slower and
it's harder to debug (because there's no longer a simple correspondence
between source lines and output code).  So it's completely normal to
develop/debug with optimization off, then turn it on for real builds (of
course you have to test those thoroughly).  The optimizer is very
complex and people sometimes worry about it introducing bugs, but I've
never heard of bugs coming from turning the optimizer OFF.

>> [simulator]
> That's not been our experience. We're usually called in about the time
> the hardware's ready for the first time, and help debug it.

Sure, to debug the hardware, you need the hardware, I can understand
that.  But lots of the code shouldn't be too hardware dependent.  If
your application needs you to write a math routine (no i/o, no special
registers etc), you should generally be able to develop it on a PC and
then transplant it to the target.

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Question about checking the stack Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 22:31 -0800
  Re: Question about checking the stack Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 07:46 +0100
    Re: Question about checking the stack Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 23:09 -0800
      Re: Question about checking the stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 09:16 +0200
  Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-24 23:19 -0800
    Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-24 22:05 -1000
      Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-25 13:17 -0800
        Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-25 13:58 -1000
          Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-25 18:00 -0800
            Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-25 17:44 -1000
              Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-25 23:05 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-25 21:38 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 09:49 +0200
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-25 22:42 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-26 14:51 +0000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-30 13:00 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-30 21:54 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 04:24 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 05:07 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 06:02 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-01 19:30 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-12-01 14:47 +0000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 11:56 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 05:48 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-03 09:24 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 21:10 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-03 20:52 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 06:08 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-12-01 20:32 +0000
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-01 19:32 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-12-01 08:18 +0100
                Re: Question about checking the stack Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 06:25 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-11-28 17:55 +0200
                Re: Question about checking the stack mhx@iae.nl - 2015-11-28 08:24 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-11-28 20:54 +0200
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-28 11:32 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-28 19:17 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-11-29 07:30 +0200
                Re: Question about checking the stack Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-29 09:41 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack minforth@arcor.de - 2015-11-30 01:48 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-30 08:03 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-28 19:09 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-26 00:03 -0800
                Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-25 22:49 -1000
                Re: Question about checking the stack hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-26 10:59 -0800
            Re: Question about checking the stack franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-25 21:03 -0800
          Re: Question about checking the stack Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 06:14 -0800
  Re: Question about checking the stack "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-25 04:54 -0500
  Re: Question about checking the stack François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-25 03:09 -0800
  Re: Question about checking the stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-25 12:53 +0000
    Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-25 09:02 -0800
      Re: Question about checking the stack Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-25 18:53 +0100
        Re: Question about checking the stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-25 12:01 -0800
      Re: Question about checking the stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-25 17:26 +0000
  Re: Question about checking the stack François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-25 13:51 -0800
  Re: Question about checking the stack Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-11-28 09:29 -0800
    Re: Question about checking the stack Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-28 12:03 -0800
  Re: Question about checking the stack François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-12-01 06:15 -0800
  Re: Question about checking the stack Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 14:05 -0800
    Re: Question about checking the stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-01 19:35 -1000
    Re: Question about checking the stack dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-12-03 03:40 +0000

csiph-web