Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick
Date	2016-05-09 19:03 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87d1ou6552.fsf@jester.gateway.pace.com> (permalink)
References	(16 earlier) <joKdnUlyBJ7aB7LKnZ2dnUU7-RvNnZ2d@earthlink.com> <87d1ow70zp.fsf@jester.gateway.pace.com> <slrnnj0pge.o0t.albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> <87posv5ckh.fsf@jester.gateway.pace.com> <slrnnj2bfq.260.albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl>

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Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> writes:
> If anything Forh applications are more compact, the interpreter
> consists for the most part of sensible library functions.

No I don't think so: you can write sensible library functions for C just
as well, and a lot of a Forth interpreter's code consists of the text
interpreter and its supporting machinery, which is completely absent
from a typical C application.  In the case of MSP430 Camelforth I think
that's around 8k or so of flash.  I don't know about Noforth.

> ByteForth is available for ages and has proven to be practical on
> DIP-8 chips.

Sounds interesting-- got a url?

> Noforth for the 2553 is a formidable development environment with
> indeed the interpreter running on the board. Running an editor on
> a Launchpad and storing files there, for Forth source? ... SD card...

An SD card is physically rather large compared to a tiny SPI flash
package, and decreases reliability because of yet another solderless
connector.  2553 Noforth does sound nice and I'd like to give it a try.
I notice that the V version (with namelists) uses more code space, which
wouldn't be an issue in a hypothetical larger 2553.

>> Cortex M4 cpu with 128k ram and 512M* flash... *[I meant 512K not M]
> So what you want is something like Linux, Android, in short Unix.

Not really; I'm imagining something closer to the Forth environments
that ran on old micro and minicomputers.  A text interpreter with an
editor and a simple file system, plus enough stuff to modify and
recompile the system, and also to back out of errors.  CPU speed for
most usage is probably irrelevant: 1 mhz would be more than plenty.

> But we have that in all kinds of shapes, starting with the Raspberry.

No that's an enormously more complicated system-- basically a PC on a
board.  Lots of software subsystems, high power consumption, long bootup
delay, etc.  It can't possibly go in the places where a 2553 can go.

> Why the obsession with the pin count?

To keep the packages small.  Here's a keychain flashlight with variable
brightness (PWM), blinky modes, SOS, etc.:

   http://www.ledmuseum.net/freedom.htm

It was first released in the early 2000's and I believe it uses a PIC12
microprocessor programmed in assembler.  Maybe we'd like to be able to
reconfigure or reprogram it, to change what the button actions do, etc.

The current hipster approach would be to have some stupid Iphone app
that connects to it and uploads all your personal usage patterns to a
cloud server run by some corporate octopus.  But surely 10+ years of MCU
advances would let us use a part that lets us program it in Forth.  Then
we could connect a tty to some UART pins, get an OK prompt, and
interactively tweak the device any way we like.  No non-portable host
side apps, no GUI, no Iphone--just a wholesome Forth text interpreter.

But a Raspberry Pi inside would be silly.  When you turn on a
flashlight, it has to light up immediately, not spend 30 seconds booting
and sending DHCP and NTP queries to the internet.  A 2553 with Camel or
Noforth for this would be fine.  

> In fact everybody is doing the same thing: think of an idea, count
> what is needed for it, then choose the smallest board that
> can accomodate the needs.

Of course they don't.  When was the last time you heard of a 4-bit MCU?
They used to be everywhere, since you didn't always need the power of an
8-bit.  And these days, the Cortex M0 is pushing out the 8-bit parts.
You could save a few cents of hardware with an 8-bit MCU, but unless the
quantity is huge, it's probably not worth the extra programming effort
to use a 25 cent part instead of a 35 cent part.

If we live in an era where every little gadget with a 35 cent MCU inside
can run an interactive Forth interpreter, shouldn't we embrace it and
put those interpreter in everything?

> I'm thinking about a digital sine generator currently. That requires
> fifteen to twenty I/O pins just to switch capacitors.  A chip with
> enough pins has almost certainly enough flash and RAM.

Not just a DAC?

Thread

New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-30 21:39 -0400
  Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-30 18:52 -0700
  Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-30 20:31 -0700
  Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 23:41 -0700
    Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 00:37 -0700
      Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 14:36 -0400
        Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-04-01 00:42 -0700
          Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 13:09 -0400
            Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-04-01 23:43 +0000
              Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-01 17:28 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-04-02 12:10 +0000
      Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-31 17:07 -0500
        Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-03-31 23:59 +0000
        Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-04-01 00:52 -0700
          Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 12:47 -0500
    Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 18:54 -0700
      Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 22:08 -0400
        Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 19:36 -0700
          Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 23:28 -0400
            Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 22:32 -0700
              Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 02:39 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 04:42 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick josv@planet.nl - 2016-04-01 04:48 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 05:50 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-04-01 13:35 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 13:11 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 01:58 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 10:15 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 08:02 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:39 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:54 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-02 15:14 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 22:14 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-02 23:08 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 02:11 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-03 22:54 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 02:50 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 16:37 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:15 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:21 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:01 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 03:17 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 01:15 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 12:50 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 23:21 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:29 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:02 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 02:07 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:12 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:12 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 03:22 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 01:22 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 02:12 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:15 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-05 17:14 -0500
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 03:03 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-04 19:51 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 20:18 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-04 20:44 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 22:39 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:25 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 16:23 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:18 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:22 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 13:34 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 21:28 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:34 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-01 15:52 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 01:55 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-04 22:38 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 23:10 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 16:28 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 22:35 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 21:40 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 22:13 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 22:44 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 02:41 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 01:26 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 02:02 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 09:06 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 05:09 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 03:50 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 19:23 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 16:29 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-07 11:32 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 15:38 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 09:45 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 11:04 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 17:36 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 17:39 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 14:08 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-08 10:52 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-05-08 14:57 -0500
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-08 13:23 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 09:26 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 10:26 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 09:38 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 12:58 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 22:53 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 22:41 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 11:08 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 13:21 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 23:39 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 19:03 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 21:44 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-10 08:28 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-10 12:34 -0400
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-10 22:27 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 09:16 +0000
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 14:01 -0400
            Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:26 -0700
      Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 19:09 -0700
        Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-31 21:41 -0500
          Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:10 -0700
            Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 12:37 -0500
              Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-01 15:35 -0700
                Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 18:11 -0500
        Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 19:47 -0700
          Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:23 -0700

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