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Re: Stoked

Path csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!mx02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Stoked
Date Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:34:42 -0800
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rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> F83 and Polyforth, very traditional.
> There is a reason why blocks are barely used these days.

Well ok, a simple file system is easy to implement and doesn't take much
code.  I've done it several times--it's not a big deal.

> The real issue is the myriad of support a PC provides.. How many times
> have people tried to boot one of the various native forths only to
> find they don't have the requisite hardware or that the forth doesn't
> support some hardware they wish to use?

That's because a PC is a complicated device with a lot of hardware that
simpler systems don't deal with.  I don't imagine this on a PC but
rather on an MCU or something like a Launchpad board.  There just
wouldn't be all that extra stuff from multiple vendors, no CD burner or
desktop scanner, etc.

> "Appeal" is the part I don't get.  It may be possible to implement a
> forth that can compile source from local flash, but where is the
> advantage?  The same PC connection that lets you use it as a terminal
> can just as easily provide a full set of functions.

What if there's no PC?  You might have a Mac instead, or a Chromebook,
or a mobile phone, or whatever.  Any software you wanted to run on the
PC now has to run on that other thing instead.  If it's a browser or a
terminal emulator you're probably ok.  Anything else: lots of luck.
Better to not depend on any special software.

> Ask Forth Inc why they don't support more processors.  I remember I
> tried to encourage MPE to support the ARM MCUs.  It was some time

Doing a commercially supported product that has to be qualified on lots
of disparate hardware, with a complicated optimizing compiler (written
in Forth even) that has to be targeted to the new cpu, is a lot more
complicated than porting a simple interpreter or STC compiler.

> Actually, I'm not sure why it would be any better to debug the code on
> a different platform.  Do you have some special debugging tools on the
> Linux box?  What makes this more convenient?

Well, I'm used to gforth and I've generally found that bigger systems
have more development and debugging conveniences.  Plus you don't have
to mess with the target hardware unless you're trying to test something
that actually uses special features that it has.  Even for embedded
Linux, I've preferred cross-developing to the extent possible.

> crashing the target required me to go to the other room since I was
> working remotely.

For the ARM stuff I'm currently messing with, I work remotely too--my
ARM board is in France (www.scaleway.com/pricing).  So I can't easily go
to the other room to muck with it.  I'd rather just be able to sit
around with my laptop and no internet, and code the
non-hardware-specific parts as much as possible without the hardware.  I
don't even own one of those fancy MSP430 boards at the moment.  I'm
resisting buying one until I've actually coded the app.

> I was very happy with Mecrisp...  In fact, the problem I had using it
> with the PC is the TI driver for flashing the launchpad...  So I
> decided to use a raspberry Pi as the "host" for the TI launchpad

How did you avoid similar problems with the RPi driver?  

See, I'm imagining something like 4e4th where there's no downloads, no
drivers, no installation.  You get a board (maybe a Stellaris launchpad,
maybe something like this (it could even be called 5e4th since the board
costs 5 euros):

  https://www.olimex.com/Products/IoT/MOD-WIFI-ESP8266/

with Forth already on it, including all the source code, editor, etc.
Then you just use it directly in a totally Forth environment.

Btw that 5 euro board has a 32 bit cpu (comparable to ARM CM3 I think),
96k of usable ram iiuc, and 2MB of SPI flash there on the board, plus
wifi (board is cheap enough that people use it for non-wifi things too)
and the usual MCU stuff (gpio etc).  There are many similar boards for
the same chip.  It would be neat to have a Forth system on one.  You
could bake it into some embedded thing, and then any time you wanted,
you could go up to it with your smartphone and connect to it and
configure or reprogram it any way you wanted, including total rebuild of
the software, all done right there on the board.  Who needs a PC?

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Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:04 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:18 -0700
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 12:35 -0400
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:54 -0700
        Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 10:35 -0700
        Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 11:21 -0700
        Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 14:24 -0400
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:12 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:31 -0400
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 14:55 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 01:36 -0400
          Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 06:01 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:22 -0400
          Re: Stoked Marcos Cruz <use_the_contact_page@programandala.net> - 2015-11-07 17:50 +0000
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 13:04 -0500
              Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 10:19 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 08:29 -1000
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-07 13:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 13:33 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 16:40 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 14:25 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 18:03 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 15:22 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:13 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 22:35 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:58 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 23:17 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 02:49 -0500
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 00:06 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:40 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 15:18 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 13:31 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 17:19 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 20:49 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:57 -0500
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-11 22:24 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 23:34 -0800
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:03 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 19:37 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 15:24 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 13:18 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 16:40 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 20:59 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 01:50 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 23:11 -0800
                Re: Stoked forthisit@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 13:47 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 16:27 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-12 12:18 -1000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-13 00:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-11 22:37 -1000
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 23:37 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:19 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 07:47 +0100
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-23 11:27 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 13:43 +0100
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 12:49 -1000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 19:20 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:44 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:23 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:32 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:45 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:53 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 21:25 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 14:09 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-09 05:32 -0500
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:58 +0000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:42 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:11 -0800
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-15 12:50 +0100
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 23:56 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 03:24 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:31 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:57 -1000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 02:18 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 08:33 -1000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:07 -0500
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:49 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:06 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:20 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 22:51 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 02:22 -0500
                Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 04:32 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-10 13:48 +0000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 16:17 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-10 17:26 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 21:50 -1000
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-09 12:15 +0000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 15:09 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-24 09:47 +0100
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-24 12:54 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-24 15:03 +0100
                Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 13:18 +0100
                Re: Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 14:08 +0100
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:30 +0000
                Re: Stoked Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-11-09 18:27 +0100
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-10 00:50 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:52 -1000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:16 -1000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:07 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:58 +0000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 12:00 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:49 +0000
        Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-28 23:24 +0000
          Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 17:30 -0700
          Re: Stoked Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@antispam.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-10-29 02:40 +0000
            Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-29 10:11 +0000
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:07 -0700
            Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:16 -0700
            Re: Stoked franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-10-29 01:35 -0700
            Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-29 10:16 +0000
              Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 03:35 -0700
                Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 03:48 -0700
          Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 11:31 -0700
            Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 12:01 -0700
              Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-29 12:26 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 15:29 -0400
              Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 13:27 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 16:48 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 14:58 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 01:36 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-30 04:34 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:28 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-30 12:05 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:32 -0400
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-30 18:53 -1000
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-11-01 04:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 22:27 -0800
                Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 16:47 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 01:33 -0400
                Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-31 00:55 -0700
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:52 +0000
              Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 14:49 -0700
              Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:50 +0000
    Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 18:39 +0100
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 11:11 -0700
        Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 20:01 +0100
        Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-28 12:34 -0700
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:09 -0700
    Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-10-28 15:25 -0700
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:01 -0700
        Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-29 01:58 -0400
          Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 23:34 -0700
        Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-29 08:56 +0100
    Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-28 18:41 -0400
      Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 05:28 -0700
      Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-12 11:25 -0500
        Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-12 08:43 -1000
          Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-16 13:45 -0800
            Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-17 10:26 -0800
        Re: Stoked Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2015-12-13 23:29 -0500
          Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 22:31 -0800
    Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 15:52 -0700
      Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-29 16:57 +0000
        Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-29 12:36 -0700
          Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-31 14:57 +0000
            Re: Stoked Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 20:25 +0100
        Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 20:39 -0800
    Re: Stoked Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:27 -0700
    Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 05:57 -0700
    Re: Stoked "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-02 13:15 +1100
      Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-02 02:08 -0800
  Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 09:28 -0700
    Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:37 -0700
      Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 10:28 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 10:52 -0700
    Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-28 18:14 +0000
  Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-10-28 15:20 -0700
    Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:16 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 12:13 -0700
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:34 -0400
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 13:57 -0800
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 17:19 -0500
  Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-09 00:10 -0800
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 18:52 -0800

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