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Re: Parallax Propeller

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From Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth, comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: Parallax Propeller
Date Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:12:17 -0500
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David Brown wrote:

> (Please do not snip newsgroups by using "followup to", unless the post
> really is off-topic in a group.)
>
> On 19/01/13 11:06, Paul E. Bennett wrote:
> > Ben Bradley wrote:
> >
> >> U=In comp.lang.forth,comp.arch.embedded On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:55:22
> >> GMT, Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [%X]
> >
> >>> The P2 which is due to be released soon
> >>
> >> ... still has zero interrupts.
> >>
> >> Yes, I first saw the propellor mentioned years ago, the 8 32-bit cores
> >> thing sounds nice, but no interrupts was a deal killer for me. A year
> >> or two back (with maybe earlier mention of the P2) I looked on the
> >> "official" support/discussion forums for the Propellor and saw this
> >> longish thread on "why doesn't it have interrupts" and there were
> >> posts there that covered every objection I've had or seen to a
> >> microcontroller not having interrupts, even  "why not add interrupts?
> >> It would take very little silicon and you don't have to use 'em if you
> >> don't want to." It's against that designer guru guy's religion or
> >> something.
> >>
> >> As far as I know there's no other microcontroller that doesn't have
> >> interrupts, and I can't recall one that didn't. The Apple ][ didn't
> >> use interrupts even though the 6502 had them. Maybe there were some
> >> 4-bit microprocessors that didn't have any interrupts.
>
> Were there not small Microchip PIC devices without interrupts?  The
> PIC12 series, or something like that (I didn't use them myself).
>
> >
> > One question you should ask yourself is why you think a parallel processor
> > (particularly the mesh organised ones) really need to include interrupts.
> > You have many processors, all the same, simple, no frills. You can afford to
> > dedicate a processor to deal with inputs that need to be responded to
> > rapidly without the need for interrupts. I know that, to some, it might seem
> > a waste of a processor, but with heavily parallel chips you could afford to
> > think about how you allocate I/O around the processor array.
> >
>
> That argument might have merit /if/ this chip had many processors.  It
> only has 8.  I think the idea of splitting a design into multiple
> simple, semi-independent tasks that all work on their own
> cpu/core/thread, in their own little worlds, is very elegant.  It can
> give great modularisation, re-use of software-components, and easy
> testing.  But you need /many/ more than 8 threads for such a system with
> real-world programs - otherwise you have to combine tasks within the
> same thread, and you have lost all the elegance.
>
> So then you might have a system with lots more cores - say 64 cores.
> Then you have enough to do quite a number of tasks.  But to get that
> with a realistic price, power and size, these cores will be very simple
> and slow - which means that you can't do tasks that require a single
> core running quickly.
>
> What makes a lot more sense is to have a cpu that has hardware support
> for a RTOS, and is able to switch rapidly between different tasks.  That
> way demanding tasks can get the cpu time they need, while you can also
> have lots of very simple tasks that give you the modularisation in code
> without having to dedicate lots of silicon.  The XMOS does a bit of
> this, in that it has 8 threads per cpu that can run up to 100 MIPS each
> (IIRC), but with a total of 500 MIPS per cpu, and it also has
> inter-process communication in hardware.
>
> > Check back in the history of processors and you will see why the interrupt
> > was thought to be necessary in the first place. With the world heading to
> > the much more use of multi-parallel processor I suspect the need for
> > interrupts will wane.
> >
>
> Look how many interrupts a modern PC or large embedded system has - they
> outnumber the number of cores by 50 to 1 at least.  Interrupts are not
> going away.

Interrupts are not going away anytime soon.

There are event riven processors that are essentially all interrupts.

Add run to completion (to eliminate preemption overhead)  and multiple
cores for interrupts to use the next available execution unit and a lot of
processing overheads go away with comparable reduction in software
complexity.

w..

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Thread

Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 06:37 +0000
  Re: Parallax Propeller MK <mk@nospam.co.uk> - 2013-01-13 10:26 +0000
    Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 12:22 +0000
      Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-13 07:24 -0600
        Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 13:55 +0000
          Re: Parallax Propeller mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-13 17:13 +0200
            Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-16 06:23 -0600
              Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 15:01 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-16 09:12 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 15:36 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-16 10:59 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 23:38 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-17 04:04 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-17 04:52 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-24 22:48 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:10 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-28 17:42 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-05 06:05 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-05 08:41 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-05 10:21 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-05 21:37 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-05 10:44 -1000
                Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-05 15:52 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-06 00:29 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-06 00:31 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-06 19:46 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-09 00:11 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-09 10:25 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-06 18:26 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-05 15:07 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-05 15:49 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-05 06:04 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-05 15:21 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 18:09 -0500
          Re: Parallax Propeller Ben Bradley <ben_u_bradley@etcmail.com> - 2013-01-18 21:07 -0500
            Re: Parallax Propeller "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-01-19 10:06 +0000
              Re: Parallax Propeller Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-01-19 13:04 +0100
              Re: Parallax Propeller "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-19 13:22 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-19 13:38 +0100
              Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-01-19 17:12 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-19 16:45 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-01-20 17:49 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-01-19 20:54 +0200
                Re: Parallax Propeller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-19 11:04 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-01-19 23:05 +0200
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-20 01:05 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-01-20 12:11 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-01-20 13:53 +0200
                Re: Parallax Propeller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-01-20 13:26 +0200
                Re: Parallax Propeller Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-01-19 14:23 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-01-19 14:18 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-01-20 20:32 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-01-20 18:08 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2013-01-20 17:12 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2013-01-20 19:19 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2013-01-20 21:12 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2013-01-21 09:01 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2013-01-21 21:11 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-01-22 09:39 +0200
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2013-01-22 10:14 -0500
              Re: Parallax Propeller Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl> - 2013-01-20 02:03 +0000
            Re: Parallax Propeller George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2013-01-19 12:29 -0500
              Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 12:29 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-24 14:03 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-24 22:55 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:03 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-01-25 20:02 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-28 17:13 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2013-01-29 09:15 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller Anders.Montonen@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid - 2013-01-30 12:19 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-01-30 21:18 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-30 22:57 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-31 10:38 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 12:34 -0800
            Re: Parallax Propeller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-19 10:42 -0800
              Re: Parallax Propeller bob@bob.com - 2013-01-19 19:56 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 12:40 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller None <vandys@vsta.org> - 2013-01-24 23:26 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2013-01-25 11:49 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 09:25 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller None <vandys@vsta.org> - 2013-01-25 21:57 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-26 18:07 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-27 00:50 -0800
                Re: Parallax Propeller Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-27 03:30 -0600
                Re: Parallax Propeller Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2013-01-27 12:58 +0100
                Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-28 21:38 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller None <vandys@vsta.org> - 2013-01-27 03:09 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-28 21:51 -0500
                Re: Parallax Propeller None <vandys@vsta.org> - 2013-01-30 02:10 +0000
                Re: Parallax Propeller rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-30 18:32 -0500
            Re: Parallax Propeller David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2013-01-20 11:21 -0600
      Re: Parallax Propeller albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-13 16:24 +0000
      Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2013-01-14 10:51 +0100
        Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 06:06 +0000
          Re: Parallax Propeller David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2013-01-16 13:43 +0100
            Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 15:27 +0000
      Re: Parallax Propeller Rafael Deliano <rafael_deliano@arcor.de> - 2013-01-15 21:10 +0100
        Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 06:26 +0000
      Re: Parallax Propeller gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 06:26 -0800
    Re: Parallax Propeller Peter Jakacki <peterjakacki@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 12:44 +0000

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