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Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper

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  Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Paul Sinnett <paul.sinnett@gmail.com> - 2012-11-27 14:13 -0800
    Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-27 17:42 -0800
      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-11-28 14:51 +1300
      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-11-28 00:36 -0500
    Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-28 02:02 +0000
      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid> - 2012-11-27 20:30 -0700
        Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid> - 2012-11-27 22:06 -0700
          Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Rosario1903 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 08:58 +0100
            Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid> - 2012-11-28 19:19 -0700
        Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 11:10 +0000
          Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-28 18:19 +0000
            Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-28 13:14 -0600
              Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-28 13:26 -0600
                Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-28 13:30 -0600
                  Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-11-28 19:38 +0000
                    Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2012-11-28 21:03 +0100
                      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-28 14:27 -0600
              Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-28 21:50 +0000
    Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 10:56 +0000
      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Paul Sinnett <paul.sinnett@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 03:55 -0800
        Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-11-28 21:37 +0000
      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-28 14:19 +0000
      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-17 03:45 -0800
        Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-17 12:05 -0800
          Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-20 10:06 -0800
            Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-20 14:26 -0800
              Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-21 09:29 -0800
    Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-12-17 03:39 -0800
      Re: Origin of the story that K&R style was chosen to save paper Paul Sinnett <paul.sinnett@gmail.com> - 2012-12-25 21:18 -0800

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#28750

On Wed, 2012-11-28, Paul Sinnett wrote:
...
> But I've found nothing to back it up other than vague references
> that don't appear to exist in reality. From what I can tell K&R had a
> free choice of style and just happened to choose a popular one at the
> time.

I cannot help thinking maximizing what you could read on a vt100 (or
whatever terminal these guys were using) had something to do with it,
too.  It's *still* a reason I use it, and I'm on a fancy 1920x1200
display; my Emacs is 90 lines high.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#28733

Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
<snip>
> So, I suspect that the statement "the reason the $terse_style was chosen for 
> $random_book was because $random_publisher wanted to reduce the length of 
> the book" will essentially be true for pretty much every book published 
> through a publisher.

Maybe one can say that book length will always be the reason a terse
style is not rejected, but it won't always be the reason it's chosen.

-- 
Ben.

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#29395

Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:

> Paul Sinnett wrote:
>
>> I've been told by several people that the reason the K&R style was chosen
>> for the C Programming Language book was because the publisher wanted to
>> reduce the length of the book. But I've been unable to find any
>> authoritative source for the story.
>
> I don't know if that's true or not, but you will be hard-pressed to find a 
> single book publisher that doesn't want to reduce the length of the books 
> they publish.  I personally know of a case where a book publisher pressed 
> the author of a technical book to edit down a 400-ish page draft to fit in a 
> glossy 200-page publication.  
>
> So, I suspect that the statement "the reason the $terse_style was chosen for 
> $random_book was because $random_publisher wanted to reduce the length of 
> the book" will essentially be true for pretty much every book published 
> through a publisher.

This idea is easily refuted simply by observing the enormous
numbers of C or C++ books (not to mention Java, etc) that
use an open bracing style in their code samples.

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#29419

Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
[...]
>> So, I suspect that the statement "the reason the $terse_style was chosen for 
>> $random_book was because $random_publisher wanted to reduce the length of 
>> the book" will essentially be true for pretty much every book published 
>> through a publisher.
>
> This idea is easily refuted simply by observing the enormous
> numbers of C or C++ books (not to mention Java, etc) that
> use an open bracing style in their code samples.

And by the assumption that all publishers have the same policies.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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#29530

Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:

> Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
> [...]
>>> So, I suspect that the statement "the reason the $terse_style was chosen for 
>>> $random_book was because $random_publisher wanted to reduce the length of 
>>> the book" will essentially be true for pretty much every book published 
>>> through a publisher.
>>
>> This idea is easily refuted simply by observing the enormous
>> numbers of C or C++ books (not to mention Java, etc) that
>> use an open bracing style in their code samples.
>
> And by the assumption that all publishers have the same policies.

I'm sure that by now such books have appeared from so many
different publishers that all relevant ones are represented.

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#29552

Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
>> Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>>> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
>> [...]
>>>> So, I suspect that the statement "the reason the $terse_style was
>>>> chosen for $random_book was because $random_publisher wanted to
>>>> reduce the length of the book" will essentially be true for pretty
>>>> much every book published through a publisher.
>>>
>>> This idea is easily refuted simply by observing the enormous
>>> numbers of C or C++ books (not to mention Java, etc) that
>>> use an open bracing style in their code samples.
>>
>> And by the assumption that all publishers have the same policies.
>
> I'm sure that by now such books have appeared from so many
> different publishers that all relevant ones are represented.

I don't want to spend too much time on this profoundly trivial point,
but ... well, actually, apparently I do want to spend too much time
on it.

It's not inherently implausible that Prentice Hall, back in 1978,
asked Kernighan and Ritchie to use a particular brace style in
their book to save paper (and presumably that K&R2 used the same
style for consistency, or because it wasn't worth the effort to
change it).  This could have been the whim of an individual editor,
which wouldn't apply to other publishers, or even to other books
by the same publisher.

What's even more plausible, though, is that K&R (both editions) use
the brace style they do because it's the same one used by earlier C
reference manuals going back to 1974, and Ken Thompson's B manual
of 1972.  (BCPL didn't use curly braces.)  That brace style may
well have been motivated by saving paper, but presumably Prentice
Hall was not involved.

References:
    http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.pdf (B)
    http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cman74.pdf (early C)
    http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cman.pdf (slightly later C,
    still pre-K&R1)

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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#29571

Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:

> Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
>>> Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>>>> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
>>> [...]
>>>>> So, I suspect that the statement "the reason the $terse_style was
>>>>> chosen for $random_book was because $random_publisher wanted to
>>>>> reduce the length of the book" will essentially be true for pretty
>>>>> much every book published through a publisher.
>>>>
>>>> This idea is easily refuted simply by observing the enormous
>>>> numbers of C or C++ books (not to mention Java, etc) that
>>>> use an open bracing style in their code samples.
>>>
>>> And by the assumption that all publishers have the same policies.
>>
>> I'm sure that by now such books have appeared from so many
>> different publishers that all relevant ones are represented.
>
> I don't want to spend too much time on this profoundly trivial point,
> but ... well, actually, apparently I do want to spend too much time
> on it.

Me too, and me too. :)

> It's not inherently implausible that Prentice Hall, back in 1978,
> asked Kernighan and Ritchie to use a particular brace style in
> their book to save paper (and presumably that K&R2 used the same
> style for consistency, or because it wasn't worth the effort to
> change it).  [snip elaboration]

Possibly, but I don't think it happened.  The point of my
earlier remark was to undercut one of the arguments that
it "likely could have happened" (my paraphrase), because the
current evidence is that the putattive editorial pressure
for changing bracing style is at best small, and may even
be zero.  In the absence of any evidence suggesting that it
did happen, and considering the presence of evidence that
the story is just folklore, ISTM the most sensible conclusion
is just that:  it didn't happen, and is only folklore.  That
isn't meant to be an argument, just a statement of my personal
assessment.

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#29393

Paul Sinnett <paul.sinnett@gmail.com> writes:

> I've been told by several people that the reason the K&R style was
> chosen for the C Programming Language book was because the publisher
> wanted to reduce the length of the book. But I've been unable to find
> any authoritative source for the story. Does anyone know where this
> idea comes from? An interview maybe?

Folklore.  A sample quote:

    Regarding brace placement:  I like to spread the rumor that
    K&R originally prefered the more spread out layout but were
    coerced into the more compact layout by their book publisher
    in order to save paper.

Several web searches turned up only a handful of references (the
quote above is from the 2006-05-19 set of postings).  The last
item on the list is this very thread!

1992-11-06      https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/tree/browse_frm/month/1992-11/6b16ccb2c46b639e?rnum=181&lnk=ol&hl=pt
2004-11-01      https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=1558584
2005-05-24      http://compgroups.net/comp.programming/commenting-style-question/549175
2006-05-19      http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=30892&page=2
2007-07-07      http://java-knowledge.developerfaqs.com/q_java-tech_80214.html
2009-09-14      http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/programming-9/programming-philosophy-363010/
2012-11-27      http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t954918-origin-of-the-story-that-k-and-r-style-was-chosen-to-save-paper.html

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#29706

On Monday, 17 December 2012 11:39:43 UTC, Tim Rentsch  wrote:
> Folklore.  A sample quote:
> 
>     Regarding brace placement:  I like to spread the rumor that
>     K&R originally prefered the more spread out layout but were
>     coerced into the more compact layout by their book publisher
>     in order to save paper.

I guess that would explain it. The little prankster...

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