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[off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet?

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  [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 04:45 -0700
    Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? queequeg@trust.no1 (Queequeg) - 2019-04-16 11:49 +0000
      Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-04-16 12:04 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? queequeg@trust.no1 (Queequeg) - 2019-04-17 11:16 +0000
    Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-04-16 07:51 -0400
      Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 05:01 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 05:16 -0700
          Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-04-16 08:49 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-04-16 08:13 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 08:15 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-04-16 08:50 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-04-17 06:54 -0400
          Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 04:32 -0700
            Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? queequeg@trust.no1 (Queequeg) - 2019-04-17 20:44 +0000
            Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-04-19 09:07 -0400
    Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-04-16 13:58 +0000
      Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 07:11 -0700
      Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 07:14 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? queequeg@trust.no1 (Queequeg) - 2019-04-16 14:27 +0000
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-04-16 19:25 +0000
      Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2019-04-16 16:31 -0400
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 13:49 -0700
          Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-04-16 15:00 -0700
    Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 07:42 -0700
    Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 00:41 +0800
      Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 09:55 -0700
        Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2019-04-17 11:16 +0800
    Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2019-04-16 16:30 -0400
    Re: [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet? Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2019-04-17 11:13 +0800

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#143104 — [off-topic] What is the protocol of usenet?

What is the protocol of USENET?
SMTP and POP?


I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
services like google groups to access the information
and post on USENET.

Does anyone know more online options?

The main feature missing in google groups is filter
and it's best feature is search and because it is 
online.

I was wondering in create a server on amazon or azure 
to work as usenet client with filter.

The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.

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#143105

Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> wrote:

> What is the protocol of USENET?
> SMTP and POP?

NNTP between servers, NNRP between server and client.

> I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
> services like google groups to access the information
> and post on USENET.

To lower the average poster's intellectual level even further?

> The main feature missing in google groups is filter
> and it's best feature is search and because it is 
> online.

The main drawback of Google Groups is that it allows posting.

> The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
> personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
> filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
> same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.

Now users can easily upload their killfiles and post them in their 
signatures.

-- 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lSzL1DqQn0

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#143132

queequeg@trust.no1 (Queequeg) writes:
> Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What is the protocol of USENET?
>> SMTP and POP?
>
> NNTP between servers, NNRP between server and client.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_News_Transfer_Protocol

    During an abortive attempt to update the NNTP standard in the
    early 1990s, a specialized form of NNTP intended specifically
    for use by clients, NNRP, was proposed. This protocol was
    never completed or fully implemented, but the name persisted
    in InterNetNews's (INN) nnrpd program. As a result, the subset
    of standard NNTP commands useful to clients is sometimes still
    referred to as "NNRP".

[...]

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Will write code for food.
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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#143166

Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:

>> NNTP between servers, NNRP between server and client.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_News_Transfer_Protocol
> 
>     During an abortive attempt to update the NNTP standard in the
>     early 1990s, a specialized form of NNTP intended specifically
>     for use by clients, NNRP, was proposed. This protocol was
>     never completed or fully implemented, but the name persisted
>     in InterNetNews's (INN) nnrpd program. As a result, the subset
>     of standard NNTP commands useful to clients is sometimes still
>     referred to as "NNRP".

Exactly.

-- 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lSzL1DqQn0

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#143106

On 4/16/19 7:45 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> What is the protocol of USENET?
> SMTP and POP?
> 
> 
> I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
> services like google groups to access the information
> and post on USENET.
> 
> Does anyone know more online options?
> 
> The main feature missing in google groups is filter
> and it's best feature is search and because it is 
> online.
> 
> I was wondering in create a server on amazon or azure 
> to work as usenet client with filter.
> 
> The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
> personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
> filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
> same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.
> 
> 
Usenet typically is sent via NNTP (Net News Transport Protocol)

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#143107

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:51:30 AM UTC-3, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 4/16/19 7:45 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> > What is the protocol of USENET?
> > SMTP and POP?
> > 
> > 
> > I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
> > services like google groups to access the information
> > and post on USENET.
> > 
> > Does anyone know more online options?
> > 
> > The main feature missing in google groups is filter
> > and it's best feature is search and because it is 
> > online.
> > 
> > I was wondering in create a server on amazon or azure 
> > to work as usenet client with filter.
> > 
> > The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
> > personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
> > filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
> > same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.
> > 
> > 
> Usenet typically is sent via NNTP (Net News Transport Protocol)

Thanks.

One question, let's say I want to use a web service to post something.
Does this web server (like google groups) needs to have access to my
e-mail account settings (password)? (If yes, I believe people would not 
use trust a web service that keeps their e-mails settings.)

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#143108

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 9:02:17 AM UTC-3, Thiago Adams wrote:
...
Is the USENET a decentralized database?

Google groups itself, keeps this data, but does it
publish the data using the same protocol?

The only server I know is 
https://www.eternal-september.org/


Is google server subscribing the news of other servers?
How many?

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#143121

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:16:48 AM UTC-4, Thiago Adams wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 9:02:17 AM UTC-3, Thiago Adams wrote:
> ...
> Is the USENET a decentralized database?

No, it's a distributed network. There is no single database. Each usenet
news server maintains it's own archive of messages - the details of
which messages to keep and how long they retain them is matter each news
server decides for itself. Google's key position is the network is not
due to them having any special central role, but only due to their
decision to retain a fairly (but not absolutely) comprehensive archive
that goes all the way back to the very first usenet messages. The oldest
messages long pre-date Google. Google inherited that archive from the
late lamented Deja News, which did a much better job than Google of
giving the public access to that archive.

> Google groups itself, keeps this data, but does it
> publish the data using the same protocol?
> 
> The only server I know is 
> https://www.eternal-september.org/
> 
> 
> Is google server subscribing the news of other servers?

Most news server has connections called "news feeds" with other news
servers (it's entirely possible to create a private news server that
doesn't have any news feeds). A news server will broadcast new messages
it receives, either from it's own subscribers or from other news
servers, to all of the other news servers it's connected to. They have
considerable freedom in their choice of what messages to broadcast -
I've used a news server that only accepted messages from other news
servers - it never sent any messages out. There are procedures in place
to either reduce or eliminate wastefully sending a message to a server
that has already received it from another source - but I don't know the
details of how that is done.

> How many?

I don't know, but I's sure the number is large.

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#143119

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:02:17 AM UTC-4, Thiago Adams wrote:
...
> One question, let's say I want to use a web service to post something.
> Does this web server (like google groups) needs to have access to my
> e-mail account settings (password)?

No. You have to have an account with Google, and you need the password
for that account, but it doesn't need the password for the e-mail
account you're posting with.

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#143120

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 7:02:17 AM UTC-5, Thiago Adams wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:51:30 AM UTC-3, Richard Damon wrote:
> > On 4/16/19 7:45 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> > > What is the protocol of USENET?
> > > SMTP and POP?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
> > > services like google groups to access the information
> > > and post on USENET.
> > > 
> > > Does anyone know more online options?
> > > 
> > > The main feature missing in google groups is filter
> > > and it's best feature is search and because it is 
> > > online.
> > > 
> > > I was wondering in create a server on amazon or azure 
> > > to work as usenet client with filter.
> > > 
> > > The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
> > > personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
> > > filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
> > > same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.
> > > 
> > > 
> > Usenet typically is sent via NNTP (Net News Transport Protocol)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> One question, let's say I want to use a web service to post something.
> Does this web server (like google groups) needs to have access to my
> e-mail account settings (password)? (If yes, I believe people would not 
> use trust a web service that keeps their e-mails settings.)

RFC 4643 defines an authentication extension for NNTP:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4643

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#143122

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:02:17 AM UTC-4, Thiago Adams wrote:
...
> One question, let's say I want to use a web service to post something.
> Does this web server (like google groups) needs to have access to my
> e-mail account settings (password)?

No. You have to have an account with Google, and you need the password
for that account, but it doesn't need the password for the e-mail
account you're posting with.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#143165

On 4/16/19 8:01 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:51:30 AM UTC-3, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 4/16/19 7:45 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
>>> What is the protocol of USENET?
>>> SMTP and POP?
>>>
>>>
>>> I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
>>> services like google groups to access the information
>>> and post on USENET.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know more online options?
>>>
>>> The main feature missing in google groups is filter
>>> and it's best feature is search and because it is 
>>> online.
>>>
>>> I was wondering in create a server on amazon or azure 
>>> to work as usenet client with filter.
>>>
>>> The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
>>> personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
>>> filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
>>> same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.
>>>
>>>
>> Usenet typically is sent via NNTP (Net News Transport Protocol)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> One question, let's say I want to use a web service to post something.
> Does this web server (like google groups) needs to have access to my
> e-mail account settings (password)? (If yes, I believe people would not 
> use trust a web service that keeps their e-mails settings.)
> 

Why would it need a password to a SMTP or POP service to talk via NNTP?

For a web page to send a message to Usenet, it would need to know of a
server (possibly itself) that is a host of Usenet, and would need to
send the message to it to be posted. If that host is independent of the
web page, the web server would likely need to talk NNTP to it, likely
including providing authentication (I don't know of any NNTP servers
that don't use authentication to talk to the main part of Usenet). If
the web server also hosts a Usenet server, then it might use some
private protocol to get the message to the Usenet server task, which
would then relay to the rest of Usenet via NNTP.

My understanding is that Google Groups is sort of like that. The Google
Groups that you interact with is a web interface to a bunch of message
stores. Many are private groups that just live on the Google Groups
servers, others interact with a Google run NNTP server that connects the
Groups software to the greater Usenet community of servers.

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#143167

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 7:54:47 AM UTC-3, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 4/16/19 8:01 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:51:30 AM UTC-3, Richard Damon wrote:
> >> On 4/16/19 7:45 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> >>> What is the protocol of USENET?
> >>> SMTP and POP?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
> >>> services like google groups to access the information
> >>> and post on USENET.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know more online options?
> >>>
> >>> The main feature missing in google groups is filter
> >>> and it's best feature is search and because it is 
> >>> online.
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering in create a server on amazon or azure 
> >>> to work as usenet client with filter.
> >>>
> >>> The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
> >>> personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
> >>> filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
> >>> same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Usenet typically is sent via NNTP (Net News Transport Protocol)
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > One question, let's say I want to use a web service to post something.
> > Does this web server (like google groups) needs to have access to my
> > e-mail account settings (password)? (If yes, I believe people would not 
> > use trust a web service that keeps their e-mails settings.)
> > 
> 
> Why would it need a password to a SMTP or POP service to talk via NNTP?
> 
> For a web page to send a message to Usenet, it would need to know of a
> server (possibly itself) that is a host of Usenet, and would need to
> send the message to it to be posted. If that host is independent of the
> web page, the web server would likely need to talk NNTP to it, likely
> including providing authentication (I don't know of any NNTP servers
> that don't use authentication to talk to the main part of Usenet). If
> the web server also hosts a Usenet server, then it might use some
> private protocol to get the message to the Usenet server task, which
> would then relay to the rest of Usenet via NNTP.

The thing I was thinking in to do is much simpler.
It is just a client like Thunderbird.
But, for my convenience, I would run this client on 
the cloud and access it in any computer/mobile.

If possible (I didn't read the spec yet) I could allow more
than one account and them I could make it open to anyone 
to play with it.

It also could implement the server-server parts but this
would not be the initial focus.

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#143195

Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> wrote:

> But, for my convenience, I would run this client on 
> the cloud and access it in any computer/mobile.

Read about ssh instead of reinventing the wheel.

-- 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lSzL1DqQn0

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#143219

On 4/17/19 7:32 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 7:54:47 AM UTC-3, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 4/16/19 8:01 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 8:51:30 AM UTC-3, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 4/16/19 7:45 AM, Thiago Adams wrote:
>>>>> What is the protocol of USENET?
>>>>> SMTP and POP?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
>>>>> services like google groups to access the information
>>>>> and post on USENET.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know more online options?
>>>>>
>>>>> The main feature missing in google groups is filter
>>>>> and it's best feature is search and because it is 
>>>>> online.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering in create a server on amazon or azure 
>>>>> to work as usenet client with filter.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other feature I was thinking about is to allow
>>>>> personal moderation. Anyone can create a filter and this
>>>>> filter becomes public. If someone wants, it can use the 
>>>>> same filter on the person(s) he/she trusts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Usenet typically is sent via NNTP (Net News Transport Protocol)
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> One question, let's say I want to use a web service to post something.
>>> Does this web server (like google groups) needs to have access to my
>>> e-mail account settings (password)? (If yes, I believe people would not 
>>> use trust a web service that keeps their e-mails settings.)
>>>
>>
>> Why would it need a password to a SMTP or POP service to talk via NNTP?
>>
>> For a web page to send a message to Usenet, it would need to know of a
>> server (possibly itself) that is a host of Usenet, and would need to
>> send the message to it to be posted. If that host is independent of the
>> web page, the web server would likely need to talk NNTP to it, likely
>> including providing authentication (I don't know of any NNTP servers
>> that don't use authentication to talk to the main part of Usenet). If
>> the web server also hosts a Usenet server, then it might use some
>> private protocol to get the message to the Usenet server task, which
>> would then relay to the rest of Usenet via NNTP.
> 
> The thing I was thinking in to do is much simpler.
> It is just a client like Thunderbird.
> But, for my convenience, I would run this client on 
> the cloud and access it in any computer/mobile.
> 
> If possible (I didn't read the spec yet) I could allow more
> than one account and them I could make it open to anyone 
> to play with it.
> 
> It also could implement the server-server parts but this
> would not be the initial focus.
> 

If you are making a web based NNTP client, where the user needs their
own account to a NNTP server, than your client will need to store the
users NNTP credentials, but doesn't need any SMTP credentials (because
it has no need to access SMTP, there is no email actually involved).

Usenet messages have an email address used as the From: field, but not
part of the transmission needs to access that email address (which is
one reason why some people can use fake/invalid email addresses). The
email address is their as an identity, and to provide a way to privately
contact the writer of the message.

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#143110

On Tue, 2019-04-16, Thiago Adams wrote:
> What is the protocol of USENET?
> SMTP and POP?
>
>
> I am asking because I think we could have more on-line
> services like google groups to access the information
> and post on USENET.
>
> Does anyone know more online options?

What does "more online" mean to you? My reader normally keeps a
persistent TCP connection to the server, so in that sense it's more
online than a web interface.

> The main feature missing in google groups is filter
> and it's best feature is search and because it is 
> online.
...

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#143111

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 9:58:32 AM UTC-4, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Tue, 2019-04-16, Thiago Adams wrote:
> > Does anyone know more online options?
> 
> What does "more online" mean to you?

Presumably an interface like Google Groups that's web-based,
giving access USENET content, and not an offline reader like
Thunderbird or other source which allows you to read and
construct messages when you are offline, sending them later
when you get online.

I'll never forget the Blue Wave Reader from the days of BBS
systems.  Really enjoyed that offline reader.  Allowed you
to get on, download messages, get off, reply offline, and
get back on, thereby freeing up the BBS phone line much more.

The good ole days. :-)

-- 
Rick C. Hodgin

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#143112

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 10:58:32 AM UTC-3, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
...
> What does "more online" mean to you? My reader normally keeps a
> persistent TCP connection to the server, so in that sense it's more
> online than a web interface.

Online, I mean a web server + html page. (cloud)
Something like google groups.

If you use a Thunderbird in two different computers for 
instance, does it keep track of topics you already read?

This is one reason I prefer to use google groups.

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#143114

Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you use a Thunderbird in two different computers for 
> instance, does it keep track of topics you already read?

I use tin and log into it with ssh. It keeps track of everything, 
including what I'm *currently* reading.

You can always sync .newsrc between computers.

-- 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lSzL1DqQn0

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#143136

On Tue, 2019-04-16, Thiago Adams wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 10:58:32 AM UTC-3, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> ...
>> What does "more online" mean to you? My reader normally keeps a
>> persistent TCP connection to the server, so in that sense it's more
>> online than a web interface.
>
> Online, I mean a web server + html page. (cloud)
> Something like google groups.

Ok, then I suggest the term "web-based" to avoid confusion.

> If you use a Thunderbird in two different computers for 
> instance, does it keep track of topics you already read?

Or "centralised".

> This is one reason I prefer to use google groups.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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