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Groups > comp.lang.c > #58109 > unrolled thread

New directions in C

Started byjacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
First post2015-03-14 23:05 +0100
Last post2015-03-18 08:29 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 233 — 30 participants

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Contents

  New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-14 23:05 +0100
    Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-15 13:08 +1300
      Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 14:49 +0100
      Re: New directions in C Anand Hariharan <mailto.anand.hariharan@gmail.com> - 2015-04-07 10:03 -0700
    Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 01:36 -0700
      Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 02:07 -0700
        Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 11:10 +0100
          Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 10:36 +0000
            Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 11:43 +0100
              Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 11:01 +0000
                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 13:11 +0100
                  Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 12:51 +0000
                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 06:11 -0700
                      Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 13:37 +0000
                  Re: New directions in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-16 13:44 +0000
                    Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 15:23 +0100
                      Re: New directions in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-16 15:07 +0000
                        Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 10:24 -0700
                          Re: New directions in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-16 19:36 +0000
                            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 16:19 -0700
                      Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-16 15:51 +0000
                        Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 20:41 +0100
                          Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:23 +0100
                            Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:34 +0100
                              Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:37 +0100
                                Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:48 +0100
                                  Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:52 +0100
                                    Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 16:05 +0100
                                  Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-17 18:58 +0000
                                    Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 12:15 -0700
                                      Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 12:31 -0700
                                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 16:13 +0000
                                  Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 09:50 -0700
                                    Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 17:59 +0100
                                      Re: New directions in C Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-03-17 17:16 +0000
                                        Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 18:24 +0100
                                          Re: New directions in C Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-03-17 17:46 +0000
                                          Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 18:02 +0000
                                          Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-17 18:58 +0000
                                          Re: New directions in C fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-03-17 13:04 -0700
                                        Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:17 -0700
                                          Re: New directions in C Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-03-18 14:58 +0000
                                      Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-17 11:38 -0700
                                      Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-03-17 22:59 -0400
                                        Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-03-18 09:05 +0100
                                          Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-03-18 08:56 -0400
                                        Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-18 10:27 +0100
                            Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-17 09:35 -0700
                              Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 17:44 +0100
                            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:11 -0700
                          Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:14 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 05:24 -0700
                  Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-17 16:50 +1300
                    Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 07:21 +0100
                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-17 01:50 -0700
                      Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 21:22 +1300
                        Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:55 -0700
                          Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 22:08 +1300
                            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 07:01 -0700
                Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-03-16 08:27 -0400
                  Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 13:31 +0100
                    Re: New directions in C Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-16 09:47 -0500
                      Re: New directions in C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-16 17:16 +0000
                  Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:15 +0000
                    Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-03-23 12:41 -0400
                      Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-23 10:20 -0700
            Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-16 12:54 +0100
              Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-16 09:30 -0700
                Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-03-16 13:14 -0400
                Jacob (Was: New directions in C) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-03-16 18:07 +0000
            Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 15:27 +0100
              Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-16 16:26 +0100
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 10:09 -0700
                  Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-16 11:14 -0700
                  Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-17 13:42 +0100
                    Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 14:59 +0100
                      Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:27 +0100
                        Re: New directions in C Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 15:34 +0100
                        Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 16:18 +0000
                        Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:35 +0000
                          Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-22 01:23 -0700
                            Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-22 11:00 +0000
                            Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-29 16:56 +0000
                              Re: New directions in C asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-03-29 10:04 -0700
                                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-29 10:56 -0700
                                  Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-29 19:30 +0100
                                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-29 12:25 -0700
                                      Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-29 20:46 +0100
                                  Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-29 21:46 +0000
                                  Re: New directions in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-30 07:43 -0700
                                  Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 00:33 +0200
                                    Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-06 23:13 +0000
                                    Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-07 15:46 +1200
                                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 01:37 -0700
                                      Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-07 21:08 +1200
                                        Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 02:52 -0700
                                          Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-07 11:09 +0100
                                            Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 13:18 +0200
                                          Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 13:03 +0200
                                            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 06:16 -0700
                                              Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 16:18 +0200
                                                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-07 07:37 -0700
                                                  Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 23:31 +0200
                                                  Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-07 22:40 -0400
                                                    Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-08 16:57 +1200
                                                      Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 09:14 +0200
                                                      Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 01:52 -0700
                                                        Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-08 21:36 +1200
                                                          Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 02:51 -0700
                                                            Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-08 22:23 +1200
                                                              Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 13:14 +0200
                                                                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 04:27 -0700
                                                                  Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 14:29 +0200
                                                                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 06:01 -0700
                                                                      Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 15:21 +0200
                                                                        Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 06:44 -0700
                                                                          Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 16:50 +0200
                                                                            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 08:19 -0700
                                                                              Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-08 10:55 -0700
                                                                                Re: New directions in C asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-08 22:27 -0700
                                                                            Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-08 11:13 -0700
                                                                              Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 21:27 +0200
                                                                                Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-08 13:12 -0700
                                                                                  Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 09:34 +0200
                                                                                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-09 00:59 -0700
                                                                                      Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 12:31 +0200
                                                                                    Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-09 08:41 -0700
                                                                                Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-08 22:48 +0100
                                                                                  Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-08 19:03 -0500
                                                                                    Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 10:01 +0200
                                                                                  Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-09 09:50 +0200
                                                                                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-09 01:18 -0700
                                                                              Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-08 12:32 -0700
                                                                  Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-08 08:49 -0400
                                                                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-08 06:15 -0700
                                                                      Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-10 23:18 -0400
                                                                        Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-10 23:50 -0700
                                                                          Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-11 15:02 +0200
                                                                            Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-11 06:44 -0700
                                                                              Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-12 16:53 +0200
                                                                            Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-11 10:01 -0500
                                                                              Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-11 09:23 -0700
                                                                                Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-11 13:53 -0400
                                                                                Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-12 02:08 -0500
                                                                                  Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-12 03:02 -0700
                                                                                    Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-12 17:07 -0400
                                                                                      Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-13 01:59 -0700
                                                                                        Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-13 08:13 -0400
                                                                                          Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-13 06:50 -0700
                                                                          Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-11 11:57 -0400
                                                      Re: New directions in C Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-08 08:36 -0400
                                                        Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-08 15:01 +0200
                                      Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-07 04:58 -0500
                                        Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-07 11:16 +0100
                                          Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-07 13:30 +0200
                                        Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-07 12:03 +0100
                                          Re: New directions in C Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-07 11:32 -0500
                                      Re: New directions in C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-07 17:12 +0000
                              Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-03-29 19:41 +0200
                                Re: New directions in C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-29 18:21 +0000
                                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-29 21:29 +0100
                                  Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-29 14:26 -0700
                                Re: New directions in C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-03-29 19:10 -0500
                                Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-30 09:48 +0000
                                  Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-03-30 13:14 +0200
                                    Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-06 12:39 +0000
                              Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 10:53 -0700
                        Re: New directions in C Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2015-04-09 18:17 -0700
                          Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 01:08 -0700
                            Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:44 -0700
                          Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-10 02:06 -0700
                            Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 10:21 +0100
                            Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 10:31 +0100
                              Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 11:26 +0100
                                Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 11:53 +0100
                                  Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 12:22 +0100
                                    Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 12:46 +0100
                                      Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-10 13:46 +0100
                                        Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 13:51 +0100
                                    Re: New directions in C Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 18:54 +0000
                                      Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 13:11 -0700
                                        Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 14:10 -0700
                                        Re: New directions in C Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:46 +0000
                                      Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-11 23:38 +0100
                                        Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 16:35 -0700
                                          Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:19 -0700
                                            Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-12 00:54 -0700
                                              Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-12 01:29 -0700
                                          Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 17:32 -0700
                                        Re: New directions in C Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-11 23:33 +0000
                                  Re: New directions in C Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2015-04-10 09:23 -0300
                                    Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-10 13:31 +0100
                            Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-10 13:29 -0500
                              Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-10 12:12 -0700
                              Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-10 13:46 -0700
                                Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-10 18:30 -0500
                                  Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-11 12:21 -0700
                                    Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-12 01:01 -0500
                                      Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-12 13:03 -0700
                                        Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-12 23:29 +0100
                                          Re: New directions in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-12 18:54 -0700
                                        Re: New directions in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-13 00:52 -0500
                                          Re: New directions in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-13 08:39 -0400
                    Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:02 +0100
                    Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-17 15:07 +0100
                      Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-17 16:09 +0100
                    Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-21 22:19 +0000
              Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 18:05 +0000
            Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-17 15:55 +1300
              Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 08:48 +0000
                Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-17 03:01 -0700
                  Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-17 10:32 +0000
                    Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-18 01:32 -0700
                    Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 21:33 +1300
                      Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-18 08:55 +0000
                        Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 22:13 +1300
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-18 21:31 +1300
          Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 09:35 -0700
          Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 09:49 -0700
    Re: New directions in C Lőrinczy Zsigmond <zsiga@nospam.for.me> - 2015-03-16 10:07 +0100
      Re: New directions in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-16 10:51 +0100
        Re: New directions in C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-16 10:25 +0000
          Re: New directions in C Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-16 11:32 +0000
            Re: New directions in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-16 13:06 +0100
              Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 05:35 -0700
            Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-16 13:46 +0000
            Re: New directions in C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-16 17:07 +0000
              Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 10:19 -0700
                Re: New directions in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-17 16:37 +1300
          Re: New directions in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-16 05:42 -0700
      Re: New directions in C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-16 10:55 +0000
      Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 09:41 -0700
    Re: New directions in C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 08:29 -0700

Page 11 of 12 — ← Prev page 1 … 9 10 [11] 12  Next page →


#59942

FromKeith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Date2015-04-12 18:54 -0700
Message-ID<87mw2cu719.fsf@kst-u.example.com>
In reply to#59940
Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 12/04/2015 21:03, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> I agree that requiring any positional arguments to follow any named
>> arguments (in calls, not in declarations) is reasonable.
>
> Either you've made a mistake there, or I disagree that it is reasonable.

The former.  Any positional arguments should *precede* any named
arguments.

[snip]

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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#59943

FromRobert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com>
Date2015-04-13 00:52 -0500
Message-ID<kdlmialk7ba31o3mls30k1miogcnhdshc1@4ax.com>
In reply to#59938
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 13:03:06 -0700, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
wrote:

>Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 12:21:20 -0700, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
>> wrote:
>[...]
>>>It's quite possible I've misunderstood.  In
>>>
>>>    int g(int a, int b=5, int c=6; int .d=1, int .e=2, int .f=);
>>>
>>>both c and d have default values, but only d has a "." in its
>>>declaration.  What exactly does the "." mean?
>>
>> That the parameter is named (keyword).  IOW, the above would have
>> three positional parameters, one of which is mandatory (as it has no
>> default value), and three positional parameters, with one being
>> mandatory.  What I was envisioning was that parameters were either
>> positional or named, not both.
>
>Saying the parameter is "named" doesn't really tell me what that
>means.  All 6 parameters are "named" in the sense that they have
>names: a, b, c, d, e, f.
>
>I *think* what you mean is that if a parameter is "named", a call
>may or may not use the parameter name for the associated argument,
>and if it's "positional" then it may not.  For example, these call:
>
>    g(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6);
>    g(1);
>    g(1, 2, 3, .d=4, .e=5, .f=6);
>
>would be legal, but this:
>
>    g(.a=1, .b=2, .c=3, .d=4, .e=5, .f=5);
>
>would not.  What I don't understand is why you'd want a declaration
>to be able to impose this kind of arbitrary restriction on the
>caller.
>
>BTW, though the term "keyword parameters" is common, I suggest
>avoiding it in this context, since "keyword" already has a specific
>meaning.
>
>[...]
>
>> I understand, but I suspect that allowing the caller to decide will
>> make for more confusing code if you allowed all parameters to be coded
>> either way.
>
>I disagree.
>
>In Ada, with which I have a fair amount of experience, all parameters
>have names, and the names must be consistent between declaration
>and definition.  There is no distinction between named and positional
>parameters in a declaration; the distinction exists only for calls.
>
>Any call can use either positional or named notation for any
>parameter.  It hasn't caused any significant problems that I've seen
>-- and it's simpler than what you suggest.  It doesn't let library
>authors arbitrarily decide what kind of notation callers may use.
>It allows, but doesn't require, callers to use named notation for
>added clarity.


I'm just not sure that could be retrofitted into C.  And I have less
of an objection to allowing nominally positional parameters to be
specified with a name.  But if you have three or four common
parameters, allowing the 30 rare ones to be specified positionally
seems less than useful.  But I'm not dogmatic about it - I think
named/keyword parameters would be a very useful addition, especially
for many of the option-rich APIs.


>>              OTOH, allowing positional parameters to be specified in
>> keyword form is probably no problem (at least not worse than what we
>> have now), although the rule should probably be something like not
>> allowing any positional parameters after any keyword parameters.
>
>I agree that requiring any positional arguments to follow any named
>arguments (in calls, not in declarations) is reasonable.
>
>[...]
>
>> One advantage of the new syntax (defining the parameter in the
>> declaration with the preceding dot), is that you can enforce sane
>> rules if named parameters are defined.  Namely there then has to be a
>> name for a named parameter, and you can insist that the names in
>> multiple declaration and definitions of the function are consistent. I
>> think it also avoids any incompatibilities with existing C code,
>> although I'm not sure I see one if you just allow the name of a
>> positional parameter to be used, except for the fact that there's no
>> current need for those names to be consistent, or supplied at all -
>> perhaps the rule is that if you *do* use a name for a positional
>> parameter, all the declarations have to match).
>
>As I said, if I were designing a C-like language with named
>argument support from scratch, I'd require all parameters to
>be named and named consistently.  Grafting this feature onto the
>existing language without breaking existing code is more difficult.
>I think the simplest approach would be to use the name given in
>the most recent visible declaration, while specifying names for all
>parameters of standard library functions (and encouraging secondary
>standards like POSIX and third-party libraries to do likewise).
>
>Macros would be a problem.  Any standard library function can be
>implemented as a macro.  That means any call using named arguments
>would become invalid -- unless macro call syntax is also updated to
>allow named arguments.  Macro definitions already specify parameter
>names; we'd just need to allow macro invocations to use those names.
>This could break some existing code; this:
>
>    MACRO(.name=value)
>
>is currently valid, and this feature would change its meaning.
>
>Of course, like any new language feature, introducing it in a new
>standard will cause problems for programmers, who won't be able to
>use it unless they can guarantee that their code will be used only
>with compilers that support it.  On the other hand, the same was
>true for designators in initializers, which were added in C99 for
>much the same reason.


I hadn't thought about the macro issues.  Still I suspect
named/keyword parameters (whatever we decide to call them) haven't a
prayer of making it past the C committee, and while I don't think the
odd on the C++ side are great, I think they're substantially better
there.

I am often baffled by what the C (and C++) committees find useful.
Some simple, and generally usefully stuff that doesn't break anything,
(named breaks and continues for breaking out of nested loops and
binary literals*, to name two), gets resoundingly ignored, while we
get things like VLAs (which I can certainly see a use case for, but
it's somewhat small).

C'est la vie.


*Really, there was some urgent real world requirements for hex FP
literals??

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#59964

FromJames Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Date2015-04-13 08:39 -0400
Message-ID<mggdcb$o52$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#59943
On 04/13/2015 01:52 AM, Robert Wessel wrote:
...
> *Really, there was some urgent real world requirements for hex FP
> literals??

Yes. Note the promise made by the last sentence of 6.4.4.2p3:

"For decimal floating constants, and also for hexadecimal floating
constants when FLT_RADIX is not a power of 2, the result is either
the nearest representable value, or the larger or smaller representable
value immediately adjacent to the nearest representable value, chosen in
an implementation-defined manner. For hexadecimal floating constants
when FLT_RADIX is a power of 2, the result is correctly rounded."

"Correctly rounded" is a promise of some considerable value when doing
high-precision numerical work (it's of less importance in most practical
uses of floating point values that represent measurements, since those
seldom strain the precision limits on 'double'). No comparable promise
has ever applied to decimal floating point constants, regardless of the
value of FLT_RADIX (it obviously could be applied when FLT_RADIX is a
power of 10 - but the committee decided not to impose such a requirement).
-- 
James Kuyper

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#58291

Fromjacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
Date2015-03-17 15:02 +0100
Message-ID<me9c5l$j5p$2@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#58283
Le 17/03/2015 13:42, David Brown a écrit :
> I have no problem with Jacob's extended language - but I think it would
> make sense to give it another name.  Even "Extended C" would be fine.
> He has already made it clear that he thinks the C committee is too slow
> and conservative (and I don't think that's an unreasonable position) -
> his changes go beyond C to make a new language.

I have taken care of staying within STANDARD C (1999). Note that the C 
standard does NOT forbid extensions. The only thing you should never do 
is to insert new keywords into the language.

Please read the standard before yuo start screaming

"It is not C".

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#58292

Fromjacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
Date2015-03-17 15:07 +0100
Message-ID<me9ce8$kgi$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#58283
Le 17/03/2015 13:42, David Brown a écrit :
> Promoting ideas here is fine.  But this is not a commercial newsgroup,
> and promoting a commercial product is not appropriate.  Promoting a
> free, limited version of a commercial product is more of a grey area,
> and is probably okay if it is specific to the topic being discussed.


As long as it is GNU it is OK. When somebody starts working against GNU, 
as I do, and refuses to give years of work to some corporation it is 
FORBIDDEN, OFF TOPIC, RIDICULOUS, etc.


Red Hat Corp is selling the work of hundreds of people that gave their 
work for free. None of those guys receives a penny from Red Hat Corp.

When gcc folks charge US$ 25000 to answer a question for about gcc 
obviously they are not doing it in a commercial context.


:-)

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#58311

FromDavid Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Date2015-03-17 16:09 +0100
Message-ID<me9g1e$5og$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#58292
On 17/03/15 15:07, jacob navia wrote:
> Le 17/03/2015 13:42, David Brown a écrit :
>> Promoting ideas here is fine.  But this is not a commercial newsgroup,
>> and promoting a commercial product is not appropriate.  Promoting a
>> free, limited version of a commercial product is more of a grey area,
>> and is probably okay if it is specific to the topic being discussed.
> 
> 
> As long as it is GNU it is OK. When somebody starts working against GNU,
> as I do, and refuses to give years of work to some corporation it is
> FORBIDDEN, OFF TOPIC, RIDICULOUS, etc.

People in this group use a wide variety of compilers.  gcc is often used
as "the reference compiler", simply because lots of people have it, and
those that don't have it can easily get it (for zero cost).  It is also
a pretty good compiler, and does a reasonable (but not perfect) job of
supporting all current C standards.

Details of /any/ compiler, gcc or otherwise, is off-topic for the most
pedantic group members - others are happy with it for a short threads.
More serious compiler-specific help should be directed to other arenas.

> 
> Red Hat Corp is selling the work of hundreds of people that gave their
> work for free. None of those guys receives a penny from Red Hat Corp.

Now you are /really/ getting off topic!  But Red Hat makes money selling
the packaging of their systems and tools, and selling support for them.
 They do an extraordinary amount of work in order to put together their
distributions, and almost everything they produce is available under the
GPL - even though other distributions are able to simply copy Red Hat's
effort and re-sell it (or give it away for free).  They are major
contributors to a range of packages and parts of a typical Linux system,
including the kernel, libraries, and toolchains.  Some feel they do /too
much/ work here, and dominate particular areas (such as Gnome and systemd).

But given that Red Hat is a major force behind the development of gcc
and related tools, claiming that Red Hat is "all take and no give" shows
a total and complete lack of understanding of how open source
development works.

> 
> When gcc folks charge US$ 25000 to answer a question for about gcc
> obviously they are not doing it in a commercial context.
> 

I have had many questions answered by gcc developers, none of which have
charged me.  There are certainly companies (and individuals) happy to
sell support contracts for gcc - Red Hat, CodeSourcery (now part of
Mentor Graphics), etc., will do that.  They provide a service, and
charge for it (though not at 25K$ per question).  But you'll not get any
bills for asking questions on the gcc mailing lists.

However, contrary to your beliefs, c.l.c. is not a gcc promoter -
details of gcc-specific issues are neither more nor less on-topic than
specifics of lcc.  In either case, occasional small threads are fine,
but we don't want any particular compiler to dominate.

> 
> :-)
> 

I hope you really are as smiley as that - you don't always sound it in
your posts!


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#58607

Fromraltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
Date2015-03-21 22:19 +0000
Message-ID<550ded70.35291203@news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#58283
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

> On 16/03/15 18:09, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 3:26:47 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> But like most people here, I would far rather see you be honest and
> >> accurate when describing your tools and their licensing, and I would
> >> prefer if you dropped your paranoia about a c.l.c. conspiracy against
> >> you, your ideas, and your products.
> >>
> > To be fair, Jacob is sometimes ridiculed.
> 
> (Just to be clear here - the discussion here is only in regard to
> on-topic threads about C.  Any ridicule or flames for off-topic subjects
> is incidental here.)
> 
> I've seen mostly fairly polite, but firm, disagreement with Jacob -
> ridicule is, I think, very rare.  But I accept Kenny's argument that
> language or cultural differences may make a post seem stronger or
> insulting, when it was not aimed in that way.  For example, it is not
> uncommon for Brits to use sarcasm in a light-hearted manner, when other
> readers take it more seriously.

That would be a reasonable argument, except that:
a. he is not the only non-native speaker in this group, but he is the
only one who interprets these arguments as "insults";
b. he himself has attempted - to be honest, poorly - to use sarcasm
himself, so he at least knows what it is. _His_ attempts at sarcasm are
almost always more directly insulting than anyone else's aimed at him.

Richard

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#58231

FromRichard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Date2015-03-16 18:05 +0000
Message-ID<me75uu$8qh$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#58204
On 16/03/15 14:27, jacob navia wrote:
> Le 16/03/2015 11:36, Richard Heathfield a écrit :
>> But "insulted"? I think you need to back up that claim if you wish
>> people to believe it, because it is a most extraordinary claim - why
>> would anyone insult an implementor for implementing C99?
>
> Mr "teapot", and all the anonymous trolls that were stalking me for years?

Were you insulted by the trolls? Sure. (Who hasn't been?) But were you 
insulted for implementing C99, as you claimed? I doubt it very much.

<snip>

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#58264

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-03-17 15:55 +1300
Message-ID<cmpjcgF5dq2U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#58169
Richard Heathfield wrote:

> If they want the STL, sure they should use C++. The STL is a C++
> library. This is why we have different languages - so that people get
> the freedom to make these kinds of choices. Yes, it's true that C++ has
> STL and C doesn't, but that doesn't mean that we need to add STL to C.
> Rather, it means we get to choose whether we wish to use a language with
> STL or a language without it. The pay-off for not having STL is
> decreased complexity.

Less complexity in the language for sure, but the complexity is still 
there in the the problem you would use the C++ standard library to solve.

I simply don't buy the "decreased complexity" argument.  C may be a less 
complex language, but this inevitably leads to more complex solutions. 
A recent discussion on reading a file of unknown length into a buffer 
was a a good illustration of this.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#58272

FromRichard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Date2015-03-17 08:48 +0000
Message-ID<me8pn1$fn1$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#58264
On 17/03/15 02:55, Ian Collins wrote:
> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
>> If they want the STL, sure they should use C++. The STL is a C++
>> library. This is why we have different languages - so that people get
>> the freedom to make these kinds of choices. Yes, it's true that C++ has
>> STL and C doesn't, but that doesn't mean that we need to add STL to C.
>> Rather, it means we get to choose whether we wish to use a language with
>> STL or a language without it. The pay-off for not having STL is
>> decreased complexity.
>
> Less complexity in the language for sure, but the complexity is still
> there in the the problem you would use the C++ standard library to solve.

That's not necessarily true, but I will grant that it is often true. 
Thing is, you get the choice.

> I simply don't buy the "decreased complexity" argument.  C may be a less
> complex language, but this inevitably leads to more complex solutions.

I *like* complex solutions, as long as it's *my* complexity, not the 
language's complexity. I like a simple, powerful language that I can use 
to do big, complicated things in a way that I know will work exactly the 
way I want it to. Now, obviously not everybody will see things the same 
way that I do, but *they* can use C++, can't they?

> A recent discussion on reading a file of unknown length into a buffer
> was a a good illustration of this.

Well, personally I don't think reading a file of unknown length into a 
buffer is all that complicated a task. (And yes, I remember the discussion.)

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#58275

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com>
Date2015-03-17 03:01 -0700
Message-ID<bb41e4d4-2971-4093-839c-01f1f2f7503e@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#58272
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:48:27 AM UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 17/03/15 02:55, Ian Collins wrote:
> 
> Well, personally I don't think reading a file of unknown length into a 
> buffer is all that complicated a task. (And yes, I remember the discussion.)
> 
C doesn't let you find the length of the file, and it forces you to decide your own
allocation strategy.
So it's one of those things which is easy to do on most platforms if you are
specifically targeting that platform. It's simply lock file, query file length,
allocate memory, fail on out of memory, read file into buffer, unlock file,
return buffer and length to caller. It's hard to write a portable, general-purpose
function in pure ANSI C.

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#58276

FromRichard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Date2015-03-17 10:32 +0000
Message-ID<me8vqq$54v$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#58275
On 17/03/15 10:01, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:48:27 AM UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 17/03/15 02:55, Ian Collins wrote:
>>
>> Well, personally I don't think reading a file of unknown length into a
>> buffer is all that complicated a task. (And yes, I remember the discussion.)
>>
> C doesn't let you find the length of the file,

Oh yes it does. (To be more precise, it lets me find how much data I can 
read from the file, which amounts to the same thing from my perspective, 
modulo ferror().)


> and it forces you to decide your own
> allocation strategy.

s/forces/allows/ - it's something I'd *prefer* to decide for myself, and 
C allows me to do that. That's good, not bad.

<snip>


-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#58394

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com>
Date2015-03-18 01:32 -0700
Message-ID<f91c654a-4741-4f9c-b334-747c432b9a9b@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#58276
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 10:32:58 AM UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 17/03/15 10:01, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > 
> > and it forces you to decide your own
> > allocation strategy.
> 
> s/forces/allows/ - it's something I'd *prefer* to decide for myself, and 
> C allows me to do that. That's good, not bad.
> 
But you're not necessarily the programmer who calls the code,
and you don't necessarily know the context.
On a typical desktop system, a reasonable strategy is to allocate
a chunk of memory, then increment by 50% every time the input goes
over the limit. That strikes a reasonable balance between number of
allocation calls and excess memory usage.
But if you're writing for a hosted but non-general purpose computer
you might well know the hard limit on allocation size, so it makes
sense to code this in, especially if many input files are close to
the hard limit, which might often be the case if, for example, they
are game levels and the main program is a trivial level loader/
driver.
But if the game runs on both PCs and consoles, and for some reason 
the load routines can't just be rewritten, it's better to have a 
higher-level "loadfile" interface.

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#58395

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-03-18 21:33 +1300
Message-ID<cmsri2FqupfU3@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#58276
Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 17/03/15 10:01, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:48:27 AM UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 17/03/15 02:55, Ian Collins wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, personally I don't think reading a file of unknown length into a
>>> buffer is all that complicated a task. (And yes, I remember the discussion.)
>>>
>> C doesn't let you find the length of the file,
>
> Oh yes it does. (To be more precise, it lets me find how much data I can
> read from the file, which amounts to the same thing from my perspective,
> modulo ferror().)

Unless the "file" doesn't have a size, such as a terminal input.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#58398

FromRichard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Date2015-03-18 08:55 +0000
Message-ID<mebeha$ohg$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#58395
On 18/03/15 08:33, Ian Collins wrote:
> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 17/03/15 10:01, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:48:27 AM UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 17/03/15 02:55, Ian Collins wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, personally I don't think reading a file of unknown length into a
>>>> buffer is all that complicated a task. (And yes, I remember the discussion.)
>>>>
>>> C doesn't let you find the length of the file,
>>
>> Oh yes it does. (To be more precise, it lets me find how much data I can
>> read from the file, which amounts to the same thing from my perspective,
>> modulo ferror().)
>
> Unless the "file" doesn't have a size, such as a terminal input.

That's true, but irrelevant. If the application is intended to process 
terminal input, it makes little sense to me to seek information about 
how much information will eventually be typed. By its very nature, the 
data stream is unbounded (and the same applies no matter what language 
or library one is using).


-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#58401

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-03-18 22:13 +1300
Message-ID<cmsttsFqupfU5@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#58398
Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 18/03/15 08:33, Ian Collins wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 17/03/15 10:01, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:48:27 AM UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>> On 17/03/15 02:55, Ian Collins wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, personally I don't think reading a file of unknown length into a
>>>>> buffer is all that complicated a task. (And yes, I remember the discussion.)
>>>>>
>>>> C doesn't let you find the length of the file,
>>>
>>> Oh yes it does. (To be more precise, it lets me find how much data I can
>>> read from the file, which amounts to the same thing from my perspective,
>>> modulo ferror().)
>>
>> Unless the "file" doesn't have a size, such as a terminal input.
>
> That's true, but irrelevant. If the application is intended to process
> terminal input, it makes little sense to me to seek information about
> how much information will eventually be typed. By its very nature, the
> data stream is unbounded (and the same applies no matter what language
> or library one is using).

That right, but if the language's box of tricks contains standard 
flexible containers, the solution (and test) complexity is significantly 
reduced.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#58393

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-03-18 21:31 +1300
Message-ID<cmsrehFqupfU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#58272
Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 17/03/15 02:55, Ian Collins wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>
>>> If they want the STL, sure they should use C++. The STL is a C++
>>> library. This is why we have different languages - so that people get
>>> the freedom to make these kinds of choices. Yes, it's true that C++ has
>>> STL and C doesn't, but that doesn't mean that we need to add STL to C.
>>> Rather, it means we get to choose whether we wish to use a language with
>>> STL or a language without it. The pay-off for not having STL is
>>> decreased complexity.
>>
>> Less complexity in the language for sure, but the complexity is still
>> there in the the problem you would use the C++ standard library to solve.
>
> That's not necessarily true, but I will grant that it is often true.
> Thing is, you get the choice.

As you do in C++, only one seldom takes the wheel reinventing path.

>> I simply don't buy the "decreased complexity" argument.  C may be a less
>> complex language, but this inevitably leads to more complex solutions.
>
> I *like* complex solutions, as long as it's *my* complexity, not the
> language's complexity. I like a simple, powerful language that I can use
> to do big, complicated things in a way that I know will work exactly the
> way I want it to. Now, obviously not everybody will see things the same
> way that I do, but *they* can use C++, can't they?

 From my perspective I don't like the additional testing overhead of a 
complex solution...  The less code I have to write, the fewer tests I 
have to write, the faster I get the job done and get paid.

>> A recent discussion on reading a file of unknown length into a buffer
>> was a a good illustration of this.
>
> Well, personally I don't think reading a file of unknown length into a
> buffer is all that complicated a task. (And yes, I remember the discussion.)

That depends which language you are using :)

-- 
Ian Collins

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#58217

Fromfir <profesor.fir@gmail.com>
Date2015-03-16 09:35 -0700
Message-ID<77729e8b-46d1-4851-9d5f-90c4452e7abb@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#58167
W dniu poniedziałek, 16 marca 2015 11:11:06 UTC+1 użytkownik jacob navia napisał:
> I have been working with this program the last 20 years.
> 
> I implemented the C99 standard, and was insulted to no end by the 
> regulars here because "C99 was not portable", the only standard they 
> would accept was the C89 standard of 1989.
> 
> I have implemented a replica of the STL in plain C. I presented it tothe 
> committee in Portland. It was rejected after a small discussion of one 
> hour. People should use C++.
> 
> Here, you are the only one that somehow has said anything with meaning.
> But you represent the current view in thisnewsgroup when you say:
> 
> <quote>
> such 'directions' (changes) are not in the natural spirit of c, so imo 
> this IS NOT C,,
> thus those are not new directions in c
> <end quote>

nono, I appericiate/prize your work if youre the man who made lcc-win (I probably even used it (briefly and i dont remember but made some test with it in some winapi progs) and i know it is somewhat known and probably nice compiler, youre solely wrote it? made port to winapi? [if you got a time you coul say a bit more what this work was like]

but as you spend 20 yeras on this i spend 15 on deep thinking on c ground rules and 'spirit' (the thing that makes c language and tehnology so special and amazing etc]

and here i feel i know what im saying (at least "what i have on my mind") you could call it a set of "additions or improvements in c" but iMO personally those additions break some terrific rules
of c spirit and imo are lower level than original c 

[they are for example worse then my C2 theoretic work, things like acces to the  other funstions statics, or 
e,f,g = a,g,f; general redesign to 
allow x, y = foo(), adhoc enums, resizable arrays, and other 'weird' and unique stuff of my invention ;o]

I am even not sure if my C2 stuff is on a wuality level of original c, I just mean that obtaining the quality level of oryginal c is 'hard'

(wonder if i should 'ship' my own C2 solutions into working life.. not sure if i should do that becouse thing is not 
finished.. but maybe..  if so you could maybe implement some of my solutions
and i would geat a plesaure of testing it
when work
(but as i said i am not sure as to this if they should be shipped or if i just should worm more on this at all, hard decisions and no clue which way is better)





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#58219

Fromfir <profesor.fir@gmail.com>
Date2015-03-16 09:49 -0700
Message-ID<403a1ab1-b0bf-48f7-8b0c-1fe764be124a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#58167
W dniu poniedziałek, 16 marca 2015 11:11:06 UTC+1 użytkownik jacob navia napisał:
> 
> Here, you are the only one that somehow has said anything with meaning.

tnx,

ye my thoughts on c improvements are valuable (though recently, three month or so im am so sick of programming that i do not do nothing at all)

besides youre a bit 'oversensitive' this group is not so bad, i mean it has both kinds of energy bad and good, filter out bad focus on good to discuss/rethink something (that is what im doing)

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#58165

FromLőrinczy Zsigmond <zsiga@nospam.for.me>
Date2015-03-16 10:07 +0100
Message-ID<me66gf$2v1$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#58109
On 2015-03-14 23:05, jacob navia wrote:
> This is the first of a series of messages here I propose to discuss the
> developments/enhancements to C in lcc-win.

Don't call this C language. Pick a character, a create a new name, eg: 
C^ or C%

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