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Groups > comp.lang.c > #55447 > unrolled thread

do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?

Started byfir <profesor.fir@gmail.com>
First post2014-12-26 04:39 -0800
Last post2015-01-05 15:21 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 258 — 38 participants

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  do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 04:39 -0800
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-26 05:33 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 06:18 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 10:07 -0800
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xavier Roche <xroche@free.fr.NOSPAM.invalid> - 2014-12-26 15:18 +0100
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-12-26 09:54 -0600
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2014-12-26 17:42 +0000
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 10:00 -0800
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 09:12 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 09:41 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 10:25 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-30 12:07 -0800
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 13:45 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-30 16:55 -0500
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 15:28 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2014-12-31 15:21 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-31 16:06 +0000
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2014-12-31 17:12 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-31 18:46 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-01 06:23 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-01 14:41 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-01 23:32 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-01 16:10 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 01:42 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 03:55 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 16:22 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 09:00 -0800
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 17:13 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 09:39 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 18:24 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-02 21:56 +0000
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 22:16 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 14:38 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 11:33 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 14:20 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 15:54 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 16:45 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-06 06:05 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:12 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 10:29 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-12-30 21:58 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk - 2015-01-04 06:32 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 00:15 +0000
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-31 01:07 -0600
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 03:41 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-31 08:33 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-01 08:38 +1300
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-02 12:38 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-02 10:29 -0600
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 09:51 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-02 12:55 -0600
                Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 05:56 +0000
                  Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 00:03 -0800
                    Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 13:30 +0000
                    Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:37 -0800
                      Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:40 -0800
                      Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 01:48 +0000
                        Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:52 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 03:37 -0800
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-30 23:58 +0000
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-31 08:37 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 09:24 -0800
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-12-30 19:35 -0600
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-12-30 20:10 -0600
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 06:30 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-01-03 18:00 +0200
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-04 22:47 +0000
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2014-12-31 04:31 +0000
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2014-12-30 20:19 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-01 20:49 +0000
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-01 23:14 +0000
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 12:38 +1300
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-01-01 23:45 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 12:51 +1300
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 14:17 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 00:43 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 23:56 +1300
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 11:48 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 04:37 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:39 +1300
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-02 13:11 +0000
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 13:46 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:03 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 18:32 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 08:09 +1300
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 12:13 -0800
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 14:13 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 14:45 -0800
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:52 +1300
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 15:25 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 06:41 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 14:58 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 07:31 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 16:47 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-02 08:31 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-03 14:03 +0100
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 13:16 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-03 09:11 -0500
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 15:07 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 10:43 -0500
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-01-04 14:50 -0600
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:38 +0100
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-06 00:49 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:59 +0100
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 19:13 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 15:42 -0600
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 22:23 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:43 +0100
                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 14:23 -0800
                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-04 19:38 -0500
                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 01:08 -0800
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 01:28 -0800
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 10:54 -0500
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-01-04 14:58 -0600
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 09:59 -0500
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2015-01-04 20:50 -0800
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 10:00 -0500
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:29 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-05 10:01 -0600
                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:11 +0000
                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 16:29 +0000
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:54 +0000
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 17:28 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 18:34 +0000
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-05 10:56 -0800
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 19:05 +0000
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 11:52 -0800
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-08 21:53 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-01-05 11:07 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 20:50 +0100
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 20:10 +0000
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:10 +0100
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 08:59 -0800
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 10:17 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 18:57 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 11:14 -0800
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 11:27 -0800
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 19:40 +0000
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 19:58 +0000
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 15:09 -0800
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 12:29 -0800
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 21:04 +0000
                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:38 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:44 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:54 -0800
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-05 12:04 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 20:54 +0100
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 12:02 -0800
                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 19:56 +0100
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 19:04 +0000
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 21:02 +0100
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 20:15 +0000
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 12:00 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:17 +0100
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-08 21:56 +0000
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-14 22:03 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-14 17:54 -0500
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 09:53 +0100
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 09:06 +0000
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 14:41 +0100
                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 14:15 +0000
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-15 06:30 -0800
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 16:15 +0000
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 08:35 -0800
                                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 12:01 -0500
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 23:08 +0100
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-18 16:25 +0000
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-19 09:01 +0000
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 09:08 -0500
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 09:08 -0800
                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 11:49 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 14:55 -0500
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 12:05 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 12:22 -0800
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 12:27 -0800
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 15:58 -0500
                                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:23 -0800
                                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:32 -0800
                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:43 -0800
                                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 15:49 -0800
                                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 20:34 -0800
                                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 23:50 -0800
                                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:12 -0800
                                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:30 -0800
                                                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:43 -0800
                                                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-01-16 10:42 -0600
                                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-01-16 17:37 +0000
                                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 10:09 -0800
                                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 02:27 -0800
                                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 17:25 -0500
                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 14:44 -0800
                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-01-16 10:47 -0600
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-16 10:36 +0000
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 04:55 -0800
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-15 15:12 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 13:44 -0500
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:22 +0100
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-04 22:29 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 12:58 +0100
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 16:16 +0000
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:23 +0000
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 15:38 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 21:07 +0100
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-02 08:13 +0000
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:03 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-06 08:48 +1300
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 10:18 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 20:16 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-02 21:44 -0500
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? A Lurker <none@example.com> - 2015-01-03 09:27 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 11:54 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 15:04 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:25 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 15:44 -0600
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:59 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:56 +1300
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2015-01-03 22:30 +0100
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 14:22 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 13:58 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 22:12 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 11:00 -0500
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? "D. Aaron Sawyer" <aaron@110.net> - 2015-01-04 15:07 -0400
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:38 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:41 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 13:01 +0100
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 04:46 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-24 12:27 -0700
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:48 +0100
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 01:46 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 02:17 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 04:18 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:32 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:42 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:57 -0800
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:39 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:43 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 01:45 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 08:35 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 11:36 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-01-03 18:05 +0200
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 21:18 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-03 17:01 +0000
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:11 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 14:39 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 15:07 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-03 13:47 -0500
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 21:53 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 14:09 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 08:16 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-04 15:11 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:08 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2015-01-03 15:14 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 12:22 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-01-12 15:55 -0500
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-12 22:18 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:21 +0000

Page 11 of 13 — ← Prev page 1 … 9 10 [11] 12 13  Next page →


#55906

Fromraltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
Date2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
Message-ID<54aaaa46.17616484@news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#55719
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

> On 02/01/15 17:31, Keith Thompson wrote:

> > Defining it as the macro CHAR_BIT in <stddef.h> isn't what I'd
> > call "cagey".  And C does have a byte type; it just spells it
> > "unsigned char".
> 
> True - but C also uses a different definition of "byte" from most people 
> (including most C programmers).

Myeah, but that's because most people have no sense of history - or
future.

Richard

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#55913

FromBartC <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2015-01-05 16:16 +0000
Message-ID<sNyqw.333354$lM6.172060@fx22.am4>
In reply to#55906
On 05/01/2015 15:14, Richard Bos wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
>> On 02/01/15 17:31, Keith Thompson wrote:
>
>>> Defining it as the macro CHAR_BIT in <stddef.h> isn't what I'd
>>> call "cagey".  And C does have a byte type; it just spells it
>>> "unsigned char".
>>
>> True - but C also uses a different definition of "byte" from most people
>> (including most C programmers).
>
> Myeah, but that's because most people have no sense of history - or
> future.

If we have to worry about the future then perhaps the definition of a 
'bit' needs to be widened too.

If you had to put money on what someone, some article or a fragment of 
code means by a 'byte' in 2015, which would you guess - 6, 8, 9 or 17, 
or would you refuse to bet?

-- 
Bartc

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#55914

FromRichard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid>
Date2015-01-05 16:23 +0000
Message-ID<wUyqw.376135$be7.336268@fx14.am4>
In reply to#55913
BartC wrote:

<snip>
 
> If we have to worry about the future then perhaps the definition of a
> 'bit' needs to be widened too.

The bit is a fundamental unit. The byte is not.

> 
> If you had to put money on what someone, some article or a fragment of
> code means by a 'byte' in 2015, which would you guess - 6, 8, 9 or 17,
> or would you refuse to bet?

Obviously I'd refuse to bet, because I only bet on certainties. But, if I 
were a betting man, the odds on 8 are good, here in 2015. Now, how do the 
odds change if we fast-forward to, say, 2065?

 
-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#55969

Fromfir <profesor.fir@gmail.com>
Date2015-01-05 15:38 -0800
Message-ID<df27fd44-c685-4c09-8a98-6cdf6753e284@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55913
W dniu poniedziałek, 5 stycznia 2015 17:16:33 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:
> 
> If we have to worry about the future then perhaps the definition of a 
> 'bit' needs to be widened too.

bit could be 'widened' as an 'arithmetic' type with inner state (of n inner 'shapes') with no spacial structure
- not neccessary 'arithmetic' but sorta quasi arithmetic for sure there should be some transition 'track' allowing to transform states.. probably such 'type' would be defined in a form of some operation table or set of tables

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#55949

FromDavid Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Date2015-01-05 21:07 +0100
Message-ID<m8eqsa$1fk$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55906
On 05/01/15 16:14, Richard Bos wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
>> On 02/01/15 17:31, Keith Thompson wrote:
>
>>> Defining it as the macro CHAR_BIT in <stddef.h> isn't what I'd
>>> call "cagey".  And C does have a byte type; it just spells it
>>> "unsigned char".
>>
>> True - but C also uses a different definition of "byte" from most people
>> (including most C programmers).
>
> Myeah, but that's because most people have no sense of history - or
> future.
>

It is a fact "byte" was not always 8 bits, and in historical contexts 
that may be important - and probably most people who know of a "byte" 
are younger than the relevant history.

But the future?  If I could predict the future accurately, I would not 
have to write software for a living - but I really don't think the size 
of a byte will ever change again.  It started as a vague and varying 
term, and has solidified into a fixed 8 bit size - and there are many 
programmers and programs that depend on that assumption.  There is 
nothing to be gained, and much to be lost, by any architecture ever 
choosing something different.

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#55672

FromJorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
Date2015-01-02 08:13 +0000
Message-ID<slrnmackpl.4et.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>
In reply to#55666
On Fri, 2015-01-02, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:
>>When coding for a synthetic benchmark or writing a performance critical 
>>library, I would expect the programmer to use the features what would 
>>give C++ the edge over C such as templates (instead of void* parameters) 
>>and move semantics.  C++ code isn't necessarily OO code...
...
>   It is possible that C can't be faster than C++, but the last time
>   I looked at the shootout web site, it /was/ faster than C++.

That only shows that benchmarks aren't easy to write or interpret ...

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#55903

Fromraltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
Date2015-01-05 15:03 +0000
Message-ID<54aaa766.16880562@news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#55664
Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote:

> BartC wrote:
> > On 30/12/2014 17:50, Stefan Ram wrote:

> >>     C is the fastest language on the »language shootout« site.
> >
> > /One/ of the fastest, with C++ and Fortran usually, but sometimes
> > another such as Ada or Java takes the top spot, or is not far behind.
> 
> Lets not forget that C can't be faster than C++, the latter has the same 
> (as well as extras) bag of tricks available.

Let's not forget that C++ can't be faster than C, the former has to take
the programmer's use of the extra bags of tricks into account.

Richard

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#55939

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-01-06 08:48 +1300
Message-ID<ch084eFpgmlU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55903
Richard Bos wrote:
> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> BartC wrote:
>>> On 30/12/2014 17:50, Stefan Ram wrote:
>
>>>>      C is the fastest language on the »language shootout« site.
>>>
>>> /One/ of the fastest, with C++ and Fortran usually, but sometimes
>>> another such as Ada or Java takes the top spot, or is not far behind.
>>
>> Lets not forget that C can't be faster than C++, the latter has the same
>> (as well as extras) bag of tricks available.
>
> Let's not forget that C++ can't be faster than C, the former has to take
> the programmer's use of the extra bags of tricks into account.

No, no does not.  You don't pay for tricks you don't use.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#55691

Fromfir <profesor.fir@gmail.com>
Date2015-01-02 10:18 -0800
Message-ID<092bd1e1-6b39-4cc8-aedd-fb593a3392c5@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55662
W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 00:14:36 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:
> 
> Ridiculous isn't it? The notion that for a language to be successful, it 
> apparently needs to have curly braces! I can design a copy-cat language 
> tomorrow that does exactly what C does, but that doesn't use curly 
> braces, or a whole other bunch of annoying syntax. (Come to think of it, 
> I already have a version of C where most curly braces have been eliminated.)
> 

in what form you eliminated those curly braces? (i recently found some alternative for consideration too)

i wouldnt call curly braces annoying (i would call it half annoying as half ot this syntax is quite nice (code looks light), other side is annoyiing ;c

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#55695

FromBartC <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2015-01-02 20:16 +0000
Message-ID<S0Dpw.981515$u67.977758@fx08.am4>
In reply to#55691
On 02/01/2015 18:18, fir wrote:
> W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 00:14:36 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:
>>
>> Ridiculous isn't it? The notion that for a language to be successful, it
>> apparently needs to have curly braces! I can design a copy-cat language
>> tomorrow that does exactly what C does, but that doesn't use curly
>> braces, or a whole other bunch of annoying syntax. (Come to think of it,
>> I already have a version of C where most curly braces have been eliminated.)
>>
> i wouldnt call curly braces annoying (i would call it half annoying as half ot this syntax is quite nice (code looks light), other side is annoyiing ;c

Problems with curly braces:

(1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing 
them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and 
anything other than 1.

(2) Being optional, this can be a cause of errors when a brace is 
wrongly placed or missing; the missing brace does not ring alarm bells.

(3) There are too many options (or styles) for placing them, none 
satisfactory. Some take are too much vertical space or generally just 
get in the way

(4) Because the same } brace closes any kind of block (if, for, while, 
function etc) this can make it harder to fix problems of unbalanced braces.

(5) { and } are not visually substantial enough to stand out.

 >
 > in what form you eliminated those curly braces? (i recently found 
 >some alternative for consideration too)

I use a special preprocessor to convert C-without-braces to normal C. 
Without braces it looks like this:

http://pastebin.com/MDbSWRaf

After preprocessing, it looks like:

http://pastebin.com/3czMBgiW

The changes in the syntax are minor; partly they are there so the syntax 
more nearly matches my other languages and reduces my most common errors 
when switching between them:

(i) {,} eliminated for blocks (they are still used for data blocks and 
for do-while), and replaced with constructs such as if-then-else-endif

(ii) I use :=, = and <> instead of =, == and !=

(iv) I use an obligatory 'function' or 'proc' keyword to introduce every 
function

(v) Function prototypes are automatically generated: in file.cl for 
local static functions, and file.cx for exported ones

(vi) Functions with a 'global' prefix are exported; without 'global', 
they are assumed to be static.

(vii) 'switch' uses 'when' instead of 'case', and it allows lists of 
values instead of just one at a time. 'break' is automatic.

-- 
Bartc

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#55703

FromRichard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org>
Date2015-01-02 21:44 -0500
Message-ID<%HIpw.1594148$w82.131994@fx21.iad>
In reply to#55695
On 1/2/15 3:16 PM, BartC wrote:
>
> Problems with curly braces:
>
> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing
> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and
> anything other than 1.

And since they are allowed (even though optional) you can just always 
leave them in for blocks of one statement (some coding standards require 
this).
>
> (2) Being optional, this can be a cause of errors when a brace is
> wrongly placed or missing; the missing brace does not ring alarm bells.>

This is why some standards say to always use the brace.

> (3) There are too many options (or styles) for placing them, none
> satisfactory. Some take are too much vertical space or generally just
> get in the way

so you just adopt the one you like and maybe use a smart editor to 
reflow a program if it is too badly formatted for you. You must have a 
preferred style, as you "brace-less C" will use something that is usable 
in real C
>
> (4) Because the same } brace closes any kind of block (if, for, while,
> function etc) this can make it harder to fix problems of unbalanced braces.

A smart editor that matches braces is very useful here (and much simpler 
than on to match the multitude of combinations that your brace-less C has.

I will sometimes use something like

   }  // end while

to make things a bit clearer for deeply nested or large blocks.
>
> (5) { and } are not visually substantial enough to stand out.
>

I have never had problems seeing them in properly formatted code. The 
BIG advantage they have is that being a well established standard, many 
tools know how to handle them and will do things to make it easier to 
work with the code, be it allowing inner blocks to be collapsed, 
matching braces highlighted, or even block ranges marked.
>  >
>  > in what form you eliminated those curly braces? (i recently found
>  >some alternative for consideration too)
>

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#55711

FromA Lurker <none@example.com>
Date2015-01-03 09:27 +0000
Message-ID<m88cmr$usn$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55703
Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>   It is futile to try to replace education, attention and
>   concentration by code conventions.

A good point, but I can't help but ask how this squares with your
adherence to constant-first comparison.  Is that not a code convention
that replaces attention and concentration?

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#55715

FromBartC <bc@freeuk.com>
Date2015-01-03 11:54 +0000
Message-ID<sMQpw.311103$Cy6.155190@fx23.am4>
In reply to#55703
On 03/01/2015 02:55, Stefan Ram wrote:

>    For example, look at this expression:
>
> 3 * a
>    . Now, assume, instead of »a«, I want to treble »a + b«, so:
> 3 *( a + b ).
>    The parentheses are important here! Some less-educated
>    programmer might forget them! So I will always write:
> 3 *( a )
>    , so that the less-educated programmer will not forget them.
>    But what does he do? Oops! He wrote:
> 3 *( a )+ b
>    Okay, above I have transferred the argumentation regarding
>    the braces to parentheses just to show how absurd it is.

What's absurd is comparing linear sequences of statements to nested 
terms of an expression.

if you have the statement sequence s1; s2; s3; then the issue is how 
that sequence is delimited. Some languages will use existing elements of 
the syntax to do so, such as:

   ... then s1; s2; s3 else ...
   ... then s1 else ....

(Notice nothing special in the number of statements.)

But C requires {} or doesn't require {}, depending on some completely 
arbitrary measure, such as the number of statements in the sequence:

    ...) {s1; s2; s3;} else ...
    ...) s1; else ...

>
>    If someone write
>
> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); }
>
>    with the idea that this way the braces will not be forgotten
>    when later someone adds »printf( "b" );«, how can he avoid
>
> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); } printf( "b" );
>
>    ?

That's another good point that I'd missed in my mini-rant. How many 
times have I had code like this:

     if (...)
        a=b/c; // whatever

And I've then written, in a debug attempt:

     if (...)
        printf("C= %d\",c);
        a=b/c;

and been puzzled why it doesn't work? (And normally there are braces 
scattered around but belonging to neighbouring statements.)

With a syntax such as:

     if ... then
        a:=b/c
     endif

it's a much harder error to make. Even using a consistent C style such as:

    if (...) {
       a=b/c;
    }

will help tremendously, but is not as good as the above example. If that 
first "{" is missed out, and there happens to be a superfluous { 
floating around elsewhere, this could be legal syntax but which happens 
to be wrong. (You can't leave out 'then' because that is an immediate 
error. Using the {...} everywhere style needs language support.

-- 
Bartc

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#55732

FromJorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
Date2015-01-03 15:04 +0000
Message-ID<slrnmag17j.4et.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>
In reply to#55703
On Sat, 2015-01-03, Stefan Ram wrote:
...
>   It is futile to try to replace education, attention and
>   concentration by code conventions.

That one ends up in my collection of aphorisms.  Thanks.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#55770

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-01-04 10:25 +1300
Message-ID<cgr521Fr1q0U5@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55703
Stefan Ram wrote:
> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>> If someone write
>> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); }
>> with the idea that this way the braces will not be forgotten
>> Unfortunately, this is not checked by the compiler.
>
>    Another example:
>
>       if( x >=  0 && x <  7  )result =  1;
> else if( x >=  7 && x <  12 )result =  2;
> else if( x >= 12 && x <  17 )result =  3;
> else if( x >= 17 && x <  41 )result =  4;
> else if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )result =  5;
> else                         result = -1;
>
>    When someone always uses braces for branches and also
>    uses a common formatting convention (which I do not use)
>    this becomes

The tidy solution is to avoid the if-else latter completely.  Something like

int getBucket( int x )
{
   if( x >=  0 && x <  7  ) return  1;
   if( x <  12 ) return  2;
   if( x <  17 ) return  3;
   if( x <  41 ) return  4;
   if( x < 122 ) return  5;

   return -1;
}

-- 
Ian Collins

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#55774

FromRobert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com>
Date2015-01-03 15:44 -0600
Message-ID<rjogaa156hc5b8mj36om04j03876altobt@4ax.com>
In reply to#55770
On Sun, 04 Jan 2015 10:25:21 +1300, Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Stefan Ram wrote:
>> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>>> If someone write
>>> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); }
>>> with the idea that this way the braces will not be forgotten
>>> Unfortunately, this is not checked by the compiler.
>>
>>    Another example:
>>
>>       if( x >=  0 && x <  7  )result =  1;
>> else if( x >=  7 && x <  12 )result =  2;
>> else if( x >= 12 && x <  17 )result =  3;
>> else if( x >= 17 && x <  41 )result =  4;
>> else if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )result =  5;
>> else                         result = -1;
>>
>>    When someone always uses braces for branches and also
>>    uses a common formatting convention (which I do not use)
>>    this becomes
>
>The tidy solution is to avoid the if-else latter completely.  Something like
>
>int getBucket( int x )
>{
>   if( x >=  0 && x <  7  ) return  1;
>   if( x <  12 ) return  2;
>   if( x <  17 ) return  3;
>   if( x <  41 ) return  4;
>   if( x < 122 ) return  5;
>
>   return -1;
>}


The first if needs to be replaced with:

  if (x < 0 ) return -1;
  if (x < 7 ) return 1;

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#55778

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-01-04 10:59 +1300
Message-ID<cgr71lFr1q0U7@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55774
Robert Wessel wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2015 10:25:21 +1300, Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>>>> If someone write
>>>> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); }
>>>> with the idea that this way the braces will not be forgotten
>>>> Unfortunately, this is not checked by the compiler.
>>>
>>>     Another example:
>>>
>>>        if( x >=  0 && x <  7  )result =  1;
>>> else if( x >=  7 && x <  12 )result =  2;
>>> else if( x >= 12 && x <  17 )result =  3;
>>> else if( x >= 17 && x <  41 )result =  4;
>>> else if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )result =  5;
>>> else                         result = -1;
>>>
>>>     When someone always uses braces for branches and also
>>>     uses a common formatting convention (which I do not use)
>>>     this becomes
>>
>> The tidy solution is to avoid the if-else latter completely.  Something like
>>
>> int getBucket( int x )
>> {
>>    if( x >=  0 && x <  7  ) return  1;
>>    if( x <  12 ) return  2;
>>    if( x <  17 ) return  3;
>>    if( x <  41 ) return  4;
>>    if( x < 122 ) return  5;
>>
>>    return -1;
>> }
>
>
> The first if needs to be replaced with:
>
>    if (x < 0 ) return -1;
>    if (x < 7 ) return 1;

I did say "Something like".  I was going to change the first tests to

   if( x < 0 || x > 122 ) return  -1;
   if( x <  7 ) return  1;

My point still stands though.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#55776

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2015-01-04 10:56 +1300
Message-ID<cgr6t1Fr1q0U6@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55770
Stefan Ram wrote:
> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>>>> If someone write
>>>> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); }
>>>> with the idea that this way the braces will not be forgotten
>>>> Unfortunately, this is not checked by the compiler.
>>>     Another example:
>>>        if( x >=  0 && x <  7  )result =  1;
>>> else if( x >=  7 && x <  12 )result =  2;
>>> else if( x >= 12 && x <  17 )result =  3;
>>> else if( x >= 17 && x <  41 )result =  4;
>>> else if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )result =  5;
>>> else                         result = -1;
>
>    Can you see how your newsreader messed up my indentation?
>    In my post, all occurences of the word »if« were aligned.
>
>    Such modification of my speech is the reason I have stopped
>    to post to the moderated newsgroups for C and C++. Their
>    moderation software modified my indentation and the moderation
>    was not willing to have me discuss this in the newsgroup.

You appear to use non-standard indentation, which doesn't help.  In this 
case, I can't see why Thunderbird added an extra space.

>> int getBucket( int x )
>> {
>>    if( x >=  0 && x <  7  ) return  1;
>>    if( x <  12 ) return  2;
>>    if( x <  17 ) return  3;
>>    if( x <  41 ) return  4;
>>    if( x < 122 ) return  5;
>>    return -1;
>> }
>
>    If you would work as a maintenance programmer, you now might
>    have introduced a bug, as this will return »2« for the case
>    of x being »-7«, while the original statement sets »result« to
>    »-1« for this case.
>
>    The »x >= 0« test in the original statement already hints at
>    the possibility that the author of the original statement
>    was aware that »x« might be negative.

If this were real code, the unit tests for getBucket would have failed...

-- 
Ian Collins

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#55771

FromSjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll>
Date2015-01-03 22:30 +0100
Message-ID<54a85f59$0$21141$703f8584@textnews.kpn.nl>
In reply to#55703
On 03.01.15 21:50, Stefan Ram wrote:
> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>> If someone write
>> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); }
>> with the idea that this way the braces will not be forgotten
>> Unfortunately, this is not checked by the compiler.
>
>    Another example:
>
>       if( x >=  0 && x <  7  )result =  1;
> else if( x >=  7 && x <  12 )result =  2;
> else if( x >= 12 && x <  17 )result =  3;
> else if( x >= 17 && x <  41 )result =  4;
> else if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )result =  5;
> else                         result = -1;
>
>    When someone always uses braces for branches and also
>    uses a common formatting convention (which I do not use)
>    this becomes
>
> if( x >= 0 && x < 7 )
> {
>      result = 1;
> }
> else
> {
>      if( x >= 7 && x < 12 )
>      {
>          result = 2;
>      }
>      else
>      {
>          if( x >= 12 && x < 17 )
>          {
>              result = 3;
>          }
>          else
>          {
>              if( x >= 17 && x < 41 )
>              {
>                  result = 4;
>              }
>              else
>              {
>                  if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )
>                  {
>                      result = 5;
>                  }
>                  else
>                  {
>                      result = -1;
>                  }
>              }
>          }
>      }
> }
>
>     which I deem less readable.
>
>
and what about :
      if( x >=  0 && x <  7 ){result =  1;/*and maybe some more*/}
else if( x >=  7 && x <  12){result =  2;}
else if( x >= 12 && x <  17){result =  3;}
else if( x >= 17 && x <  41){result =  4;}
else if( x >= 41 && x < 122){result =  5;}
else                        {result = -1;}

Of course one line for each keyword makes things unreadable.

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#55782

FromMalcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com>
Date2015-01-03 14:22 -0800
Message-ID<7587b685-9466-49dd-acf4-da7143d81ab6@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55771
On Saturday, January 3, 2015 9:34:21 PM UTC, Sjouke Burry wrote:
> On 03.01.15 21:50, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
> >> If someone write
> >> if( f() ){ printf( "a" ); }
> >> with the idea that this way the braces will not be forgotten
> >> Unfortunately, this is not checked by the compiler.
> >
> >    Another example:
> >
> >       if( x >=  0 && x <  7  )result =  1;
> > else if( x >=  7 && x <  12 )result =  2;
> > else if( x >= 12 && x <  17 )result =  3;
> > else if( x >= 17 && x <  41 )result =  4;
> > else if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )result =  5;
> > else                         result = -1;
> >
> >    When someone always uses braces for branches and also
> >    uses a common formatting convention (which I do not use)
> >    this becomes
> >
> > if( x >= 0 && x < 7 )
> > {
> >      result = 1;
> > }
> > else
> > {
> >      if( x >= 7 && x < 12 )
> >      {
> >          result = 2;
> >      }
> >      else
> >      {
> >          if( x >= 12 && x < 17 )
> >          {
> >              result = 3;
> >          }
> >          else
> >          {
> >              if( x >= 17 && x < 41 )
> >              {
> >                  result = 4;
> >              }
> >              else
> >              {
> >                  if( x >= 41 && x < 122 )
> >                  {
> >                      result = 5;
> >                  }
> >                  else
> >                  {
> >                      result = -1;
> >                  }
> >              }
> >          }
> >      }
> > }
> >
> >     which I deem less readable.
> >
> >
> and what about :
>       if( x >=  0 && x <  7 ){result =  1;/*and maybe some more*/}
> else if( x >=  7 && x <  12){result =  2;}
> else if( x >= 12 && x <  17){result =  3;}
> else if( x >= 17 && x <  41){result =  4;}
> else if( x >= 41 && x < 122){result =  5;}
> else                        {result = -1;}
> 
> Of course one line for each keyword makes things unreadable.

int bucketlimits[6] = {0, 7, 12, 17, 41, 122};
for(i=0;i<5;i++)
  if(x >= bucketlimits[i] && x <= bucketlimits[i+1])
  {
     result = i + 1; /* is result necessarily i + 1 or have we just 
                        put that in as sort of safe default value ?
                        Doing it this way reveals that sort of thing. */
     break;
  }
if(i == 5)
{
   result = -1;
}

Now bucketlimits and Nbuckets (potentially) are flexible.

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