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do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?

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  do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 04:39 -0800
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-26 05:33 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 06:18 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 10:07 -0800
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xavier Roche <xroche@free.fr.NOSPAM.invalid> - 2014-12-26 15:18 +0100
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-12-26 09:54 -0600
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2014-12-26 17:42 +0000
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 10:00 -0800
    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 09:12 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 09:41 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 10:25 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-30 12:07 -0800
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 13:45 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-30 16:55 -0500
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 15:28 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2014-12-31 15:21 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-31 16:06 +0000
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2014-12-31 17:12 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-31 18:46 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-01 06:23 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-01 14:41 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-01 23:32 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-01 16:10 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 01:42 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 03:55 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 16:22 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 09:00 -0800
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 17:13 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 09:39 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 18:24 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-02 21:56 +0000
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 22:16 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 14:38 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 11:33 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 14:20 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 15:54 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 16:45 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-06 06:05 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:12 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 10:29 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-12-30 21:58 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk - 2015-01-04 06:32 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 00:15 +0000
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-31 01:07 -0600
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 03:41 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-31 08:33 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-01 08:38 +1300
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-02 12:38 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-02 10:29 -0600
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 09:51 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-02 12:55 -0600
                Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 05:56 +0000
                  Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 00:03 -0800
                    Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 13:30 +0000
                    Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:37 -0800
                      Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:40 -0800
                      Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 01:48 +0000
                        Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:52 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 03:37 -0800
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-30 23:58 +0000
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-31 08:37 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 09:24 -0800
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-12-30 19:35 -0600
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-12-30 20:10 -0600
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 06:30 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-01-03 18:00 +0200
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-04 22:47 +0000
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2014-12-31 04:31 +0000
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2014-12-30 20:19 -0800
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-01 20:49 +0000
      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-01 23:14 +0000
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 12:38 +1300
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-01-01 23:45 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 12:51 +1300
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 14:17 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 00:43 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 23:56 +1300
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 11:48 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 04:37 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:39 +1300
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-02 13:11 +0000
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 13:46 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:03 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 18:32 +0000
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 08:09 +1300
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 12:13 -0800
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 14:13 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 14:45 -0800
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:52 +1300
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 15:25 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 06:41 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 14:58 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 07:31 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 16:47 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-02 08:31 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-03 14:03 +0100
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 13:16 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-03 09:11 -0500
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 15:07 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 10:43 -0500
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-01-04 14:50 -0600
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:38 +0100
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-06 00:49 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:59 +0100
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 19:13 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 15:42 -0600
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 22:23 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:43 +0100
                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 14:23 -0800
                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-04 19:38 -0500
                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 01:08 -0800
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 01:28 -0800
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 10:54 -0500
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-01-04 14:58 -0600
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 09:59 -0500
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2015-01-04 20:50 -0800
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 10:00 -0500
                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:29 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-05 10:01 -0600
                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:11 +0000
                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 16:29 +0000
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:54 +0000
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 17:28 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 18:34 +0000
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-05 10:56 -0800
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 19:05 +0000
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 11:52 -0800
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-08 21:53 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-01-05 11:07 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 20:50 +0100
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 20:10 +0000
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:10 +0100
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 08:59 -0800
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 10:17 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 18:57 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 11:14 -0800
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 11:27 -0800
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 19:40 +0000
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 19:58 +0000
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 15:09 -0800
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 12:29 -0800
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 21:04 +0000
                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:38 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:44 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:54 -0800
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-05 12:04 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 20:54 +0100
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 12:02 -0800
                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 19:56 +0100
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 19:04 +0000
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 21:02 +0100
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 20:15 +0000
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 12:00 -0800
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:17 +0100
                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-08 21:56 +0000
                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-14 22:03 +0000
                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-14 17:54 -0500
                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 09:53 +0100
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 09:06 +0000
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 14:41 +0100
                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 14:15 +0000
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-15 06:30 -0800
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 16:15 +0000
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 08:35 -0800
                                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 12:01 -0500
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 23:08 +0100
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-18 16:25 +0000
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-19 09:01 +0000
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 09:08 -0500
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 09:08 -0800
                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 11:49 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 14:55 -0500
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 12:05 -0800
                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 12:22 -0800
                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 12:27 -0800
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 15:58 -0500
                                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:23 -0800
                                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:32 -0800
                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:43 -0800
                                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 15:49 -0800
                                                                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 20:34 -0800
                                                                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 23:50 -0800
                                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:12 -0800
                                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:30 -0800
                                                                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:43 -0800
                                                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-01-16 10:42 -0600
                                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-01-16 17:37 +0000
                                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 10:09 -0800
                                                                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 02:27 -0800
                                                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 17:25 -0500
                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 14:44 -0800
                                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-01-16 10:47 -0600
                                                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-16 10:36 +0000
                                                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 04:55 -0800
                                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-15 15:12 +0000
                                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 13:44 -0500
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:22 +0100
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-04 22:29 +0000
                              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 12:58 +0100
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 16:16 +0000
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:23 +0000
                            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 15:38 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 21:07 +0100
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-02 08:13 +0000
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:03 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-06 08:48 +1300
        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 10:18 -0800
          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 20:16 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-02 21:44 -0500
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? A Lurker <none@example.com> - 2015-01-03 09:27 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 11:54 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 15:04 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:25 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 15:44 -0600
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:59 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:56 +1300
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2015-01-03 22:30 +0100
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 14:22 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 13:58 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 22:12 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 11:00 -0500
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? "D. Aaron Sawyer" <aaron@110.net> - 2015-01-04 15:07 -0400
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:38 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:41 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 13:01 +0100
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 04:46 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-24 12:27 -0700
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:48 +0100
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 01:46 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 02:17 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 04:18 -0800
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:32 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:42 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:57 -0800
                        Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:39 -0800
                          Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:43 -0800
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 01:45 -0800
                      Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 08:35 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 11:36 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-01-03 18:05 +0200
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 21:18 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-03 17:01 +0000
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:11 -0800
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 14:39 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 15:07 +0000
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-03 13:47 -0500
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 21:53 +0000
                    Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 14:09 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 08:16 +1300
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-04 15:11 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:08 -0800
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2015-01-03 15:14 +0000
              Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 12:22 -0800
                Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-01-12 15:55 -0500
                  Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-12 22:18 +0000
            Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:21 +0000

Page 13 of 13 — ← Prev page 1 … 11 12 [13]

#55714

On 03/01/2015 09:46, fir wrote:
> W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 21:17:00 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:

>> Problems with curly braces:

>> I use a special preprocessor to convert C-without-braces to normal C.
>> Without braces it looks like this:
>>
>> http://pastebin.com/MDbSWRaf

>> (i) {,} eliminated for blocks (they are still used for data blocks and
>> for do-while), and replaced with constructs such as if-then-else-endif

> those if fi do od func end doesnt look good
> (this is one of the worst look of code i have
> ever seen :u  ),

You'll have to blame Algol-68 for those, not me! (A famous language from 
the past from which I pinched a lot of ideas.) (BTW I don't use 'func'; 
it's 'proc' and 'function')

In my own 'proper' language I also allow 'if' to be terminated with 
'end', 'end if' or 'endif', the same for the others. I prefer 'fi', but 
for code to be seen publicly, I try and use 'end if'


-- 
Bartc

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#55743

BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 03/01/2015 09:46, fir wrote:
> > W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 21:17:00 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:
> 
> >> Problems with curly braces:
> 
> >> I use a special preprocessor to convert C-without-braces to normal C.
> >> Without braces it looks like this:
> >>
> >> http://pastebin.com/MDbSWRaf
> 
> >> (i) {,} eliminated for blocks (they are still used for data blocks and
> >> for do-while), and replaced with constructs such as if-then-else-endif
> 
> > those if fi do od func end doesnt look good
> > (this is one of the worst look of code i have
> > ever seen :u  ),
> 
> You'll have to blame Algol-68 for those, not me! (A famous language
> from the past from which I pinched a lot of ideas.) (BTW I don't use
> 'func'; it's 'proc' and 'function')
> 
> In my own 'proper' language I also allow 'if' to be terminated with
> 'end', 'end if' or 'endif', the same for the others. I prefer 'fi',
> but for code to be seen publicly, I try and use 'end if'

Don't you end up with parsing difficulties distinguishing:

if foo
  bar
end if
baz
quux

from:

if foo
  bar
end
if baz
  quux
        
?

TMTOWTDT is often more of a drawback than a boon in a language
after a certain threshold. I'd say having multiple spellings
for the same keyword was beyond that threshold, personally.

Phil
-- 
The best part of re-inventing the wheel is that you get to pick how
many sides the new one has. -- egcagrac0 on SoylentNews

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#55768

On 03/01/2015 16:05, Phil Carmody wrote:
> BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

>> In my own 'proper' language I also allow 'if' to be terminated with
>> 'end', 'end if' or 'endif', the same for the others. I prefer 'fi',
>> but for code to be seen publicly, I try and use 'end if'
>
> Don't you end up with parsing difficulties distinguishing:
>
> if foo
>    bar
> end if
> baz
> quux
>
> from:
>
> if foo
>    bar
> end
> if baz
>    quux
>
> ?

End-of-line is treated specially, usually being interpreted as 
semi-colon, so the problem doesn't occur. It does mean you can't easily 
split 'end if' over two lines without writing it as:

  end \
  if

> TMTOWTDT is often more of a drawback than a boon in a language
> after a certain threshold. I'd say having multiple spellings
> for the same keyword was beyond that threshold, personally.

The syntax requires 'end' or 'end if' in this context. The alternatives 
are built-in macros that map to 'end if'.

-- 
Bartc

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#55744

On 2015-01-03, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 03/01/2015 09:46, fir wrote:
>> W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 21:17:00 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:
>
>>> Problems with curly braces:
>
>>> I use a special preprocessor to convert C-without-braces to normal C.
>>> Without braces it looks like this:
>>>
>>> http://pastebin.com/MDbSWRaf
>
>>> (i) {,} eliminated for blocks (they are still used for data blocks and
>>> for do-while), and replaced with constructs such as if-then-else-endif
>
>> those if fi do od func end doesnt look good
>> (this is one of the worst look of code i have
>> ever seen :u  ),
>
> You'll have to blame Algol-68 for those, not me! (A famous language from 
> the past from which I pinched a lot of ideas.) (BTW I don't use 'func'; 
> it's 'proc' and 'function')
>
> In my own 'proper' language I also allow 'if' to be terminated with 
> 'end', 'end if' or 'endif', the same for the others. I prefer 'fi', but 
> for code to be seen publicly, I try and use 'end if'
>
>

Muchnick's ICAN (in "Advanced Compiler Design and Implementation") uses
the same constructs. He seems to mix that form with some of Niklaus 
Wirth's influence. It's easy to understand when properly indented.

I confess to having a preference for curly brackets over other forms of 
marking blocks. I find them easy to see.

-- 
http://www.softsprocket.com

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#55745

W dniu sobota, 3 stycznia 2015 18:01:31 UTC+1 użytkownik Greg Martin napisał:
> On 2015-01-03, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > On 03/01/2015 09:46, fir wrote:
> >> W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 21:17:00 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:
> >
> >>> Problems with curly braces:
> >
> >>> I use a special preprocessor to convert C-without-braces to normal C.
> >>> Without braces it looks like this:
> >>>
> >>> http://pastebin.com/MDbSWRaf
> >
> >>> (i) {,} eliminated for blocks (they are still used for data blocks and
> >>> for do-while), and replaced with constructs such as if-then-else-endif
> >
> >> those if fi do od func end doesnt look good
> >> (this is one of the worst look of code i have
> >> ever seen :u  ),
> >
> > You'll have to blame Algol-68 for those, not me! (A famous language from 
> > the past from which I pinched a lot of ideas.) (BTW I don't use 'func'; 
> > it's 'proc' and 'function')
> >
> > In my own 'proper' language I also allow 'if' to be terminated with 
> > 'end', 'end if' or 'endif', the same for the others. I prefer 'fi', but 
> > for code to be seen publicly, I try and use 'end if'
> >
> >
> 
> Muchnick's ICAN (in "Advanced Compiler Design and Implementation") uses
> the same constructs. He seems to mix that form with some of Niklaus 
> Wirth's influence. It's easy to understand when properly indented.
> 
> I confess to having a preference for curly brackets over other forms of 
> marking blocks. I find them easy to see.
> 
i prefer blocks of lines, (that one like linked with ',' in classic c - sadly the "," more often do not work than work - i never knew exactly why  )

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#55729

On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
> On 02/01/2015 18:18, fir wrote:
>> W dniu pi??tek, 2 stycznia 2015 00:14:36 UTC+1 u??ytkownik Bart napisa??:
>>>
>>> Ridiculous isn't it? The notion that for a language to be successful, it
>>> apparently needs to have curly braces! I can design a copy-cat language
>>> tomorrow that does exactly what C does, but that doesn't use curly
>>> braces, or a whole other bunch of annoying syntax. (Come to think of it,
>>> I already have a version of C where most curly braces have been eliminated.)
>>>
>> i wouldnt call curly braces annoying (i would call it half annoying
>> as half ot this syntax is quite nice (code looks light), other side is
>> annoyiing ;c
>
> Problems with curly braces:
>
> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing 
> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and 
> anything other than 1.

I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
imaginary ones.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#55733

On 03/01/2015 14:39, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
>> On 02/01/2015 18:18, fir wrote:
>>> W dniu pi??tek, 2 stycznia 2015 00:14:36 UTC+1 u??ytkownik Bart napisa??:
>>>>
>>>> Ridiculous isn't it? The notion that for a language to be successful, it
>>>> apparently needs to have curly braces! I can design a copy-cat language
>>>> tomorrow that does exactly what C does, but that doesn't use curly
>>>> braces, or a whole other bunch of annoying syntax. (Come to think of it,
>>>> I already have a version of C where most curly braces have been eliminated.)
>>>>
>>> i wouldnt call curly braces annoying (i would call it half annoying
>>> as half ot this syntax is quite nice (code looks light), other side is
>>> annoyiing ;c
>>
>> Problems with curly braces:
>>
>> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing
>> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and
>> anything other than 1.
>
> I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
> statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
> major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
> imaginary ones.

I don't believe you.

Do you always know, when writing an if or for or while, the exact number 
of statements compromising the body?

And once you've written a single statement for the body, have you 
*never* had to insert an extra statement even just a temporary printf? 
Or edited some code, and decided one statement was superfluous or 
realised it can be combined with another?

Because I don't know how a block of statements is going to pan out until 
I've written it and debugged (as we're not all perfect like you). That 
can involved adding or removing statements.

If I've inserted a "{", then it will look silly with just one statement. 
If I haven't, and end up having two statements, then I might forget the 
braces with disastrous results.

Or I /think/ I already have { } (it can happen because if I'm 
concentrating on indentation), and start adding statements.

-- 
Bartc

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#55757

On 1/3/15 10:07 AM, BartC wrote:
> On 03/01/2015 14:39, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
>>> On 02/01/2015 18:18, fir wrote:
>>>> W dniu pi??tek, 2 stycznia 2015 00:14:36 UTC+1 u??ytkownik Bart
>>>> napisa??:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ridiculous isn't it? The notion that for a language to be
>>>>> successful, it
>>>>> apparently needs to have curly braces! I can design a copy-cat
>>>>> language
>>>>> tomorrow that does exactly what C does, but that doesn't use curly
>>>>> braces, or a whole other bunch of annoying syntax. (Come to think
>>>>> of it,
>>>>> I already have a version of C where most curly braces have been
>>>>> eliminated.)
>>>>>
>>>> i wouldnt call curly braces annoying (i would call it half annoying
>>>> as half ot this syntax is quite nice (code looks light), other side is
>>>> annoyiing ;c
>>>
>>> Problems with curly braces:
>>>
>>> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing
>>> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and
>>> anything other than 1.
>>
>> I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
>> statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
>> major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
>> imaginary ones.
>
> I don't believe you.
>
> Do you always know, when writing an if or for or while, the exact number
> of statements compromising the body?
>
> And once you've written a single statement for the body, have you
> *never* had to insert an extra statement even just a temporary printf?
> Or edited some code, and decided one statement was superfluous or
> realised it can be combined with another?
>
> Because I don't know how a block of statements is going to pan out until
> I've written it and debugged (as we're not all perfect like you). That
> can involved adding or removing statements.
>
> If I've inserted a "{", then it will look silly with just one statement.
> If I haven't, and end up having two statements, then I might forget the
> braces with disastrous results.
>
> Or I /think/ I already have { } (it can happen because if I'm
> concentrating on indentation), and start adding statements.
>

First, part of your confusion comes from the idea that you can put 
multiple statements after an if (or other control) statement and have 
them be controlled by that statement. Look at the grammar, the grammar 
for and if statement is one of:

if ( expression ) statement
if ( expression ) statement else statement

note, a single statement. the key point is that a "statement" has as one 
of its possible productions a {} bracket block of statements/declarations.

As to the code looking "silly" with just one statement, I guess that is 
in the eye of the beholder. I find that

if (test) {
   statement;
}

not to look that silly, and takes no more space than the equivalent

if test then
   statement;
fi

I will allow myself to use in limited cases something like

if (test) statement;

where test and statement are very simple, and I know enough that I can't 
try to tack on a second statement afterwards, as soon as I feel the 
urge, it gets "automatically" morphed to the standard form.

I NEVER write:

if (test)
   statement;

that is forbidden by my style guides and just stands out as silly to me. 
The lack of the closing brace on the outdent is a red flag of a problem.

Now, since I am using a "standard" syntax, I can get some help from 
standard tools, so when I type I F space, my tool will insert:

if () {
}

leaving me between the () ready to type the condition.

My guess is that your "private" language which you write in likely has a 
less well developed ecosystem of tools to support it. If it works for 
you, fine, just don't tell others that their methods are "silly"

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#55775

On 03/01/2015 18:47, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 1/3/15 10:07 AM, BartC wrote:

>> Because I don't know how a block of statements is going to pan out until
>> I've written it and debugged (as we're not all perfect like you). That
>> can involved adding or removing statements.

> First, part of your confusion comes from the idea that you can put
> multiple statements after an if (or other control) statement and have
> them be controlled by that statement. Look at the grammar, the grammar
> for and if statement is one of:
>
> if ( expression ) statement
> if ( expression ) statement else statement
>
> note, a single statement. the key point is that a "statement" has as one
> of its possible productions a {} bracket block of statements/declarations.

I know about the grammar; I just don't think it's right. (And I didn't 
like begin...end either, even more of a pain to keep adding or removing 
than {...})

> My guess is that your "private" language which you write in likely has a
> less well developed ecosystem of tools to support it. If it works for
> you, fine, just don't tell others that their methods are "silly"

Yes, using a smart editor is one way to get around deficiencies in the 
language. Then you just have to hope that all other code you will 
encounter uses the same style. (I'm looking at some Linux kernel code 
now that doesn't always use braces.)

It's better however if the fix is made in the language and that is the 
approach I use. One 'tool' I used in the past let me code in language X 
using a block style I liked, and it produced C source with all the 
braces, semicolons and everything else in the right place (and usually 
it was not necessary to actually look at it). So possibly a little 
/more/ well-developed than yours!

-- 
Bartc

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#55779

BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 03/01/2015 18:47, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 1/3/15 10:07 AM, BartC wrote:
>>> Because I don't know how a block of statements is going to pan out until
>>> I've written it and debugged (as we're not all perfect like you). That
>>> can involved adding or removing statements.
>
>> First, part of your confusion comes from the idea that you can put
>> multiple statements after an if (or other control) statement and have
>> them be controlled by that statement. Look at the grammar, the grammar
>> for and if statement is one of:
>>
>> if ( expression ) statement
>> if ( expression ) statement else statement
>>
>> note, a single statement. the key point is that a "statement" has as one
>> of its possible productions a {} bracket block of statements/declarations.
>
> I know about the grammar; I just don't think it's right. (And I didn't 
> like begin...end either, even more of a pain to keep adding or removing 
> than {...})
[...]

When you say you don't think it's "right", I suspect what you're really
saying is that you personally dislike it.  The C grammar is what it is,
and among other things it's internally consistent.

I'm suggesting that you should distinguish more clearly between issues
of actual correctness and your personal tastes.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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#55762

BartC wrote:
> On 03/01/2015 14:39, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
>>>
>>> Problems with curly braces:
>>>
>>> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing
>>> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and
>>> anything other than 1.
>>
>> I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
>> statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
>> major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
>> imaginary ones.
>
> I don't believe you.
>
> Do you always know, when writing an if or for or while, the exact number
> of statements compromising the body?
>
> And once you've written a single statement for the body, have you
> *never* had to insert an extra statement even just a temporary printf?
> Or edited some code, and decided one statement was superfluous or
> realised it can be combined with another?
>
> Because I don't know how a block of statements is going to pan out until
> I've written it and debugged (as we're not all perfect like you). That
> can involved adding or removing statements.
>
> If I've inserted a "{", then it will look silly with just one statement.
> If I haven't, and end up having two statements, then I might forget the
> braces with disastrous results.

If you use them correctly, the "disastrous results" will be one or more 
failed unit tests.

Most of these archaic justifications for weird coding styles or layouts 
become moot when coding with unit tests.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#55812

On Sat, 2015-01-03, BartC wrote:
> On 03/01/2015 14:39, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
...
>>> Problems with curly braces:
>>>
>>> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing
>>> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and
>>> anything other than 1.
>>
>> I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
>> statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
>> major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
>> imaginary ones.
>
> I don't believe you.

Nor should you; I was oversimplifying.  In hindsight I regret that.

> Do you always know, when writing an if or for or while, the exact number 
> of statements compromising the body?

Not always, but there are those that I'm pretty sure will always stay
at one; those I happily leave without braces on one line:

  if (a==b) return false;

I think there are other blocks which start out as one-statement, but I
have a feeling that will change.  Then I might use braces.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#55735

On Saturday, January 3, 2015 2:39:31 PM UTC, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
> 
> > Problems with curly braces:
> >
> > (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing 
> > them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and 
> > anything other than 1.
> 
> I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
> statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
> major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
> imaginary ones.
> 
I constantly have this situation.

if(dodgy_condition)
  dodgy_function_call()

it frequently need to toggle between that and

if(dodgy_condition)
{
   debug_diagnostic(dodgy_data_ptr);
   dodgy_function_call();
}

once it's not dodgy any more, of course, it's a matter aesthetics.

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#55737

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:

> On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
>> On 02/01/2015 18:18, fir wrote:
>>> W dniu pi??tek, 2 stycznia 2015 00:14:36 UTC+1 u??ytkownik Bart napisa??:
>>>>
>>>> Ridiculous isn't it? The notion that for a language to be successful, it
>>>> apparently needs to have curly braces! I can design a copy-cat language
>>>> tomorrow that does exactly what C does, but that doesn't use curly
>>>> braces, or a whole other bunch of annoying syntax. (Come to think of it,
>>>> I already have a version of C where most curly braces have been eliminated.)
>>>>
>>> i wouldnt call curly braces annoying (i would call it half annoying
>>> as half ot this syntax is quite nice (code looks light), other side is
>>> annoyiing ;c
>>
>> Problems with curly braces:
>>
>> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing 
>> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and 
>> anything other than 1.
>
> I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
> statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
> major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
> imaginary ones.

I happens to me all the time.  Often when I'm debugging and want to
stick some diagnostic "printfs" into a simple "if".  

But I view the need to stick the extras lines in (and, usually, delete
them afterwards) as a small price to pay for not having all those }s
cluttering up the screen the rest of the time.

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#55766

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
> On Fri, 2015-01-02, BartC wrote:
>> On 02/01/2015 18:18, fir wrote:
>>> W dniu pi??tek, 2 stycznia 2015 00:14:36 UTC+1 u??ytkownik Bart napisa??:
>>>>
>>>> Ridiculous isn't it? The notion that for a language to be successful, it
>>>> apparently needs to have curly braces! I can design a copy-cat language
>>>> tomorrow that does exactly what C does, but that doesn't use curly
>>>> braces, or a whole other bunch of annoying syntax. (Come to think of it,
>>>> I already have a version of C where most curly braces have been eliminated.)
>>>>
>>> i wouldnt call curly braces annoying (i would call it half annoying
>>> as half ot this syntax is quite nice (code looks light), other side is
>>> annoyiing ;c
>>
>> Problems with curly braces:
>>
>> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing 
>> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and 
>> anything other than 1.
>
> I've been waiting for 25 years for that to happen (that I have one
> statement and want to have two instead).  Never happened.  So not a
> major problem after all. Please focus on real problems rather than
> imaginary ones.

It happens to me fairly often, when I want to add a printing statement
to an if that controls just one statement.  For example, I might change
this:

    if (condition)
        return result;

to this:

    if (condition) {
        printf("return %d\n", result);
        return result;
    }

It doesn't happen *too* often because I would have used braces in the
first place.  I might omit them in rare cases where it makes sense to
put the entire if statement on one line:

    if (condition1) return this;
    if (condition2) return that;

but then the need to rearrange the code is obvious.  At $DAYJOB the
coding standard requires braces, but not all the code follows that
convention.

Incidentally, Perl requires braces; the equivalent of

    if (condition) return result;

is a syntax error.  I would have liked to have that requirement in C,
but of course changing it would break existing code.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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#56179

On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 12:22:15 -0800, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
wrote:

<snip more and more about bracing>
> Incidentally, Perl requires braces; the equivalent of
> 
>     if (condition) return result;
> 
> is a syntax error.  I would have liked to have that requirement in C,
> but of course changing it would break existing code.

Although Perl 
  return result if condition;
doesn't.

'Eclectic' may have been meant as a joke, but it isn't!

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#56186

David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> wrote:

> Although Perl 
>   return result if condition;
> doesn't.
> 
> 'Eclectic' may have been meant as a joke, but it isn't!

Meh. The problem I have with Perl is that "eclectic" normally means
"choosing one from the available options each time", whereas in Perl it
all too often means "choosing all of the available options each time".

Richard

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#55907

BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:

> Problems with curly braces:
> 
> (1) They are optional. That means having to keep adding and removing 
> them as the number of statements in a block varies between 1 and 
> anything other than 1.

Erm... no.

This is a problem where such things are _not_ optional, such as with
Pascal's begin/end/semicolon/no-semicolon/fullstop. _Those_ you _have_
to keep adding and removing. C's braces, you _may_ choose to do so, or
if you prefer you _may_ also insert them straight away when you add a
block of one statement and leave them there for the rest of the
program's life.

> (3) There are too many options (or styles) for placing them, none 
> satisfactory. Some take are too much vertical space or generally just 
> get in the way

This is true for most programming languages which have blocks at all,
and it is conducive to well-layed-out code when you have a good
programmer. The alternative is Python, which doesn't allow a thinking
programmer to write legible code and only forces a bad programmer to
_think_ he does.

> (5) { and } are not visually substantial enough to stand out.

Why should they? The statements they surround should, not the delimiters
themselves.

Richard

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