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Groups > comp.lang.c > #55447 > unrolled thread
| Started by | fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-12-26 04:39 -0800 |
| Last post | 2015-01-05 15:21 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 258 — 38 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.c
do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 04:39 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-26 05:33 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 06:18 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 10:07 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xavier Roche <xroche@free.fr.NOSPAM.invalid> - 2014-12-26 15:18 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-12-26 09:54 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2014-12-26 17:42 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 10:00 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 09:12 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 09:41 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 10:25 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-30 12:07 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 13:45 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-30 16:55 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 15:28 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2014-12-31 15:21 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-31 16:06 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2014-12-31 17:12 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-31 18:46 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-01 06:23 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-01 14:41 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-01 23:32 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-01 16:10 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 01:42 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 03:55 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 16:22 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 09:00 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 17:13 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 09:39 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-02 18:24 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-02 21:56 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 22:16 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 14:38 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 11:33 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 14:20 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 15:54 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 16:45 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-06 06:05 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:12 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 10:29 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-12-30 21:58 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk - 2015-01-04 06:32 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 00:15 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-31 01:07 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 03:41 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-31 08:33 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-01 08:38 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-02 12:38 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-02 10:29 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 09:51 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-02 12:55 -0600
Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 05:56 +0000
Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 00:03 -0800
Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 13:30 +0000
Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:37 -0800
Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:40 -0800
Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 01:48 +0000
Re: Programming and people (was Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'?) "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 17:52 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 03:37 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-30 23:58 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-31 08:37 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 09:24 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-12-30 19:35 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-12-30 20:10 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 06:30 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-01-03 18:00 +0200
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-04 22:47 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2014-12-31 04:31 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? "Chris M. Thomasson" <no@spam.invalid> - 2014-12-30 20:19 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-01 20:49 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-01 23:14 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 12:38 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-01-01 23:45 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 12:51 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 14:17 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 00:43 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-02 23:56 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 11:48 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-02 04:37 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:39 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-02 13:11 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 13:46 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:03 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 18:32 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 08:09 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 12:13 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 14:13 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 14:45 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:52 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 15:25 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 06:41 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 14:58 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 07:31 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 16:47 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-02 08:31 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-03 14:03 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 13:16 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-03 09:11 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 15:07 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 10:43 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-01-04 14:50 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:38 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-06 00:49 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:59 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 19:13 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 15:42 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-03 22:23 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:43 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 14:23 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-04 19:38 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 01:08 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 01:28 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 10:54 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-01-04 14:58 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 09:59 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2015-01-04 20:50 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 10:00 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:29 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-05 10:01 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:11 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 16:29 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:54 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 17:28 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 18:34 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-05 10:56 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 19:05 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 11:52 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-08 21:53 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-01-05 11:07 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 20:50 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 20:10 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:10 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 08:59 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 10:17 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 18:57 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 11:14 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 11:27 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 19:40 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 19:58 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 15:09 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 12:29 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 21:04 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:38 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:44 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 13:54 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-05 12:04 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 20:54 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 12:02 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 19:56 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 19:04 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 21:02 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 20:15 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 12:00 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-06 01:17 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-08 21:56 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-14 22:03 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-14 17:54 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 09:53 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 09:06 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 14:41 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 14:15 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-15 06:30 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-15 16:15 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 08:35 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 12:01 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-15 23:08 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-18 16:25 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-19 09:01 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 09:08 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 09:08 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 11:49 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 14:55 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 12:05 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 12:22 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 12:27 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 15:58 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:23 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:32 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 13:43 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-15 15:49 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 20:34 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 23:50 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:12 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:30 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 01:43 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-01-16 10:42 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-01-16 17:37 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 10:09 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 02:27 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-15 17:25 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 14:44 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-01-16 10:47 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-16 10:36 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 04:55 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-15 15:12 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 13:44 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:22 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-01-04 22:29 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 12:58 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-05 16:16 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2015-01-05 16:23 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 15:38 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 21:07 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-02 08:13 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:03 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-06 08:48 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-02 10:18 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-02 20:16 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-02 21:44 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? A Lurker <none@example.com> - 2015-01-03 09:27 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 11:54 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 15:04 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:25 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-03 15:44 -0600
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:59 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 10:56 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2015-01-03 22:30 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 14:22 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 13:58 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 22:12 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 11:00 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? "D. Aaron Sawyer" <aaron@110.net> - 2015-01-04 15:07 -0400
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:38 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 11:41 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-05 13:01 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-05 04:46 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-24 12:27 -0700
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-01-04 22:48 +0100
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 01:46 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 02:17 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 04:18 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:32 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:42 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 07:57 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:39 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:43 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-04 01:45 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 08:35 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 11:36 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-01-03 18:05 +0200
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 21:18 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-03 17:01 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-01-03 09:11 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-03 14:39 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 15:07 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-03 13:47 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-01-03 21:53 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 14:09 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-04 08:16 +1300
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-01-04 15:11 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-03 07:08 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2015-01-03 15:14 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-03 12:22 -0800
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-01-12 15:55 -0500
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-12 22:18 +0000
Re: do c coders consider themselves as an 'elite'? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-01-05 15:21 +0000
Page 2 of 13 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 … 13 Next page →
| From | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-01 14:41 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <11bc7984-ee51-48a8-9010-129d6cf9f48c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55656 |
On Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:55:53 PM UTC, Stefan Ram wrote: > > . When someone invests 30 hours to learn programming > it might not matter much whether he uses Python or C. > He will not get very far. Norvig suggests 10000 hours. > Depends what you want to achieve. In the 1980s, thousands of children go their little microcomputers from Santa Claus, and by New year's day, when the novelty of the other present had worn off, they wrote "twenty questions". Is that a worthwhile program? Now it's probably just irritating, but in the 1980s, to see a machine put the answers on your telly was quite amazing. Just a bit of programming means you can do many things, like add some interactivity to a web page. Of course it can also become a lifetime's interest.
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| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-01 23:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vOkpw.396976$EJ7.14658@fx18.am4> |
| In reply to | #55661 |
On 01/01/2015 22:41, Malcolm McLean wrote: > On Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:55:53 PM UTC, Stefan Ram wrote: >> >> . When someone invests 30 hours to learn programming >> it might not matter much whether he uses Python or C. >> He will not get very far. Norvig suggests 10000 hours. >> > Depends what you want to achieve. > > In the 1980s, thousands of children go their little microcomputers > from Santa Claus, and by New year's day, when the novelty of the > other present had worn off, they wrote "twenty questions". Is that > a worthwhile program? Now it's probably just irritating, but in > the 1980s, to see a machine put the answers on your telly was > quite amazing. In the very early 80s I was building things such as TV frame-grabbers for my board computers. That was quite something too (actually it was rare to see photographic-type images from a computer). What programming was needed for that? Certainly not 10,000 hours' worth. (Eg. wait for frame-sync low on some input, enable /write to video memory, disable it on next frame sync, do something with the picture, such as write it to audio-cassette, and repeat.) > Just a bit of programming means you can do many things, like add > some interactivity to a web page. Of course it can also become a > lifetime's interest. You need Assignment, If and Goto as a minimum to start programming. And some way of doing i/o. For simple tasks, a small language is sufficient. But people seem to think it's only worthwhile doing these things professionally and on a big scale. -- Bartc
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| From | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-01 16:10 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <ca6e9324-aece-4eb1-9ce7-abecec36e9b5@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55663 |
On Thursday, January 1, 2015 11:32:52 PM UTC, Bart wrote: > > You need Assignment, If and Goto as a minimum to start programming. And > some way of doing i/o. For simple tasks, a small language is sufficient. > My view is, the harder the problem, the simpler the language you need to tackle it. The reason is that most of the fancy apparatus of object orientation, templates, functions as first class objects, lexical closures and the rest of it is used, in reality, to get data into the right format. If your function is to get a name and a title enumeration and return a string in the form "Mr Joe Bloggs" then those considerations are crucial. If it's an AI system which works out which customers are likely to respond to being addressed by title by placing more orders, they'll forgive you if it needs a trivial layer between it and the rest of the app translating an emum Title to an enum title_t.
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| From | Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 01:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <0Impw.827350$_k.392922@fx16.iad> |
| In reply to | #55656 |
On 2015-01-01, Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 10:21:38 AM UTC-5, Greg Martin wrote: >> >> I believe there is a trend to teach computer science in Python because >> of a, supposed, ease of learning that allows the student to focus on the >> principles of computer science. > > I also see this trend, but I don't think it's because it allows the student to "focus on the principles > of computer science"---I don't see that focus at all. I think a lot of those courses use Python > for the opposite reason, that it's easy enough for students to write a few programs without having to > learn any CS principles or grapple with anything really complicated. > > We see transfer students every year with credit for some some computing class entirely in Python, > and we just don't accept Python courses as transfer credit for our school anymore. When we did, > those students would fail pretty hard in subsequent courses. I'm sure there are decent Python-based > courses out there, but there are too many that are just super-watered down "programming for > dummies" courses. > > It's a bit like the situation with Javascript: not a bad language at all, plenty of advanced features, but > when someone tells you that his or her sole programming background is in Javascript, there's a > pretty good chance that person will fail an algorithms course. > > --S was thinking more of university CS courses where they find it easier to teach P vs NP problems in Python since they can concentrate on the truth tables instead of the language issues. Such courses aren't interested in teaching programming - it doesn't really have much to do with programming anyway, or so it seems to me in my (confused) estimation. I agree with you though with regards to learn-to-program courses and your assessment of how much learning to program actually goes on. I hate to sound my age but I learnedto program, first in assembler then in higher languages such as Fortran and COBOL, mercifully followed by Pascal and eventually C. I think it a reasonable approach but 35 years later I still find myself woefully ignorant of much I would like to know and forced to continue my studies. There is much that I like about Javascript, the plethora of Javascript programmers often being the exception. -- http://www.softsprocket.com
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| From | fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 03:55 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <35ba8de3-61c0-40e1-b584-e219a60d6e90@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55670 |
W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 02:42:29 UTC+1 użytkownik Greg Martin napisał: > On 2015-01-01, Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 10:21:38 AM UTC-5, Greg Martin wrote: > >> > >> I believe there is a trend to teach computer science in Python because > >> of a, supposed, ease of learning that allows the student to focus on the > >> principles of computer science. > > > > I also see this trend, but I don't think it's because it allows the student to "focus on the principles > > of computer science"---I don't see that focus at all. I think a lot of those courses use Python > > for the opposite reason, that it's easy enough for students to write a few programs without having to > > learn any CS principles or grapple with anything really complicated. > > > > We see transfer students every year with credit for some some computing class entirely in Python, > > and we just don't accept Python courses as transfer credit for our school anymore. When we did, > > those students would fail pretty hard in subsequent courses. I'm sure there are decent Python-based > > courses out there, but there are too many that are just super-watered down "programming for > > dummies" courses. > > > > It's a bit like the situation with Javascript: not a bad language at all, plenty of advanced features, but > > when someone tells you that his or her sole programming background is in Javascript, there's a > > pretty good chance that person will fail an algorithms course. > > > > --S > > was thinking more of university CS courses where they find it easier to > teach P vs NP problems in Python since they can concentrate on the > truth tables instead of the language issues. Such courses aren't > interested in teaching programming - it doesn't really have much to do > with programming anyway, or so it seems to me in my (confused) > estimation. > > I agree with you though with regards to learn-to-program courses and > your assessment of how much learning to program actually goes on. I > hate to sound my age but I learnedto program, first in assembler then > in higher languages such as Fortran and COBOL, mercifully followed by > Pascal and eventually C. I think it a reasonable approach but 35 years > later I still find myself woefully ignorant of much I would like to > know and forced to continue my studies. > > There is much that I like about Javascript, the plethora of Javascript > programmers often being the exception. > javascript is probably much better than python.. im sorry i cannot give more explanation on this (im not even 100% sure if this is 100% true) as i got no time to really learn any of the two, but this is some kind of feeling of mine, For sure thought one should not put the javascript and python in one bag, They are quite dirffferent abstraction sets Im not to much impressed by the things i saw in python and i was oryginnaly interested in the things i saw in javascript language probably some kind of importan difference is that python ideology is more focused in the script syntax things, javascript ideas are quite 'semantic' and quite interesting ( i would like learn a bit of python anyway but cannot find a time to it, if someone would like for example show some snippets ilustrating the strength of python i could very likely to see it and may comment on it too)
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| From | Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 16:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <CBzpw.452644$5U6.143482@fx01.iad> |
| In reply to | #55670 |
On 2015-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote: > Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> writes: >>was thinking more of university CS courses where they find it easier to >>teach P vs NP problems in Python since they can concentrate on the >>truth tables instead of the language issues. > > I can't imagine what »to teach P vs NP problems /in Python/« > could mean. For this kind of material, the language an > algorithm is expressed in does not seem to matter much to me. > Possibly, it might help to concretely discuss possible > problems with C if we could see a specific example of Python > code used »to teach P vs NP problems /in Python/«. > Whether it matters much to you or not hardly seems the issue. I'm simply pointing out that there are advanced schools using Python to teach CS. I couldn't find the article I read but do notice that MIT lists it in their course catalogue: http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m6a.html -- http://www.softsprocket.com
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| From | fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 09:00 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <b7bb6a69-fe7b-45c6-b097-e94ce907cc7c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55683 |
W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 17:23:10 UTC+1 użytkownik Greg Martin napisał:
> On 2015-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> > Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> writes:
> >>was thinking more of university CS courses where they find it easier to
> >>teach P vs NP problems in Python since they can concentrate on the
> >>truth tables instead of the language issues.
> >
> > I can't imagine what »to teach P vs NP problems /in Python/«
> > could mean. For this kind of material, the language an
> > algorithm is expressed in does not seem to matter much to me.
> > Possibly, it might help to concretely discuss possible
> > problems with C if we could see a specific example of Python
> > code used »to teach P vs NP problems /in Python/«.
> >
>
> Whether it matters much to you or not hardly seems the issue. I'm simply
> pointing out that there are advanced schools using Python to teach CS.
> I couldn't find the article I read but do notice that MIT lists it in
> their course catalogue: http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m6a.html
>
anyway 9continuing the word on python) there is probably no harm in learning a bit of python
tthough as i said python is surface language
some syntax looking is in general nice simple some decisions seem a bit more complex then it could (watching the snippets)
if failed == 0:
print "\nYou won"
why not change ==to = and made : optional
if failed = 0
print "You won"
also this \n unix heritage seem maybe not quite suitable in basic child language
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| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 17:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <9lApw.372612$or5.49950@fx11.am4> |
| In reply to | #55687 |
On 02/01/2015 17:00, fir wrote: > anyway 9continuing the word on python) there is probably no harm in learning a bit of python > tthough as i said python is surface language > some syntax looking is in general nice simple some decisions seem a bit more complex then it could (watching the snippets) > > if failed == 0: > print "\nYou won" > > why not change ==to = and made : optional I think there is reason for the ":", but I'm not what! And don't forget the print statement can also follow on the same line. The "==" thing could have several reasons; maybe they didn't want "=" to mean two different things, even though Python doesn't allow assignment inside an expression. Or maybe because the people creating and implementing Python had a C background, and using "=" instead of "==" just didn't seem right. > if failed = 0 > print "You won" > > also this \n unix heritage seem maybe not quite suitable in basic child language (For a 'child' language, it is astonishingly difficult in Python to control newlines on output, particularly in suppressing them. Write that in two parts: print "You " print "won" and try to output both parts on the same line.) -- Bartc
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| From | fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 09:39 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <39316091-f081-4644-b726-4816d66bb7fb@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55688 |
W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 18:13:52 UTC+1 użytkownik Bart napisał:
> On 02/01/2015 17:00, fir wrote:
>
> > anyway 9continuing the word on python) there is probably no harm in learning a bit of python
> > tthough as i said python is surface language
> > some syntax looking is in general nice simple some decisions seem a bit more complex then it could (watching the snippets)
> >
> > if failed == 0:
> > print "\nYou won"
> >
> > why not change ==to = and made : optional
>
> I think there is reason for the ":", but I'm not what! And don't forget
> the print statement can also follow on the same line.
>
> The "==" thing could have several reasons; maybe they didn't want "=" to
> mean two different things, even though Python doesn't allow assignment
> inside an expression. Or maybe because the people creating and
> implementing Python had a C background, and using "=" instead of "=="
> just didn't seem right.
>
> > if failed = 0
> > print "You won"
> >
> > also this \n unix heritage seem maybe not quite suitable in basic child language
>
> (For a 'child' language, it is astonishingly difficult in Python to
> control newlines on output, particularly in suppressing them. Write that
> in two parts:
>
> print "You "
> print "won"
>
> and try to output both parts on the same line.)
>
well, those were some design decisions but were they right? ;\ anyway even in such simple python lines you see a strong c heritage ('==', '\n')
python like here seem just be a simple, child-syntax conglomerate with no deeper semantic 'heart', (this is not impressing me much) I got to weak knowledge to try to rate it 'inner' more semantic side right now; maybe it has no inner side? ;\
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| From | Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 18:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <onBpw.833956$JH1.728397@fx08.iad> |
| In reply to | #55688 |
On 2015-01-02, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 02/01/2015 17:00, fir wrote:
>
>> if failed = 0
>> print "You won"
>>
>> also this \n unix heritage seem maybe not quite suitable in basic child language
>
> (For a 'child' language, it is astonishingly difficult in Python to
> control newlines on output, particularly in suppressing them. Write that
> in two parts:
>
> print "You "
> print "won"
>
> and try to output both parts on the same line.)
>
res = "won"
print "You {}".format (res)
Not so bad really.
A language where indentation defines structure seems somewhat retrograde
and at times a PITA. Still, for a Google appengine project where the choices
were Java, Golang or Python I found it a good choice.
--
http://www.softsprocket.com
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 21:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <87a920alst.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #55688 |
BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes: <snip> > (For a 'child' language, it is astonishingly difficult in Python to > control newlines on output, particularly in suppressing them. Write > that in two parts: > > print "You " > print "won" > > and try to output both parts on the same line.) print "You", print "won" This may well be astonishingly difficult, but I offer it simply as a solution, not as a counterexample. -- Ben.
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| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 22:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <aNEpw.372614$or5.180761@fx11.am4> |
| In reply to | #55697 |
On 02/01/2015 21:56, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> <snip>
>> (For a 'child' language, it is astonishingly difficult in Python to
>> control newlines on output, particularly in suppressing them. Write
>> that in two parts:
>>
>> print "You "
>> print "won"
>>
>> and try to output both parts on the same line.)
>
> print "You",
> print "won"
>
> This may well be astonishingly difficult, but I offer it simply as a
> solution, not as a counterexample.
No, it's not difficult. But you have to know about it first. My
researches in the past came up with solutions such as:
print ("You", end="")
While someone posted here:
res = "won"
print "You {}".format (res)
(which seems to just evade the problem by having only a single print).
I didn't realise Python had adopted Basic's "PRINT X;"!
BTW your solution is not complete, because you might still get an
unwanted space between the two lots of output (in this simple example,
it's possible to incorporate that, but often it's unwanted). And I don't
think it works in Python 3 where the end="" method needs to be used. So
it's still awkward (if not astonishingly so) to write code that works on
both.
In other words, it would still have been easier to make the newline
explicit rather than implicit.
--
Bartc
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| From | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 14:38 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <1bf2d5bb-92ae-46a8-b839-2fefc5d19193@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55698 |
On Friday, January 2, 2015 10:16:48 PM UTC, Bart wrote: > > In other words, it would still have been easier to make the newline > explicit rather than implicit. > This often happens. Clever Clogs tries to make something easier for his user by doing things automatically. So Clever Clogs decides that if the user writes 1) some text 2) some text he's starting a list. Clever Cloggs' program will now indent everything by a tab and start the next newline with 3). That's great. Except that scientific articles by convention have sections numbered 1), 2), 2.1) 2.11, 3) 3.1), 3.2) etc. So once you're in Clever Clogg's system you can't get out. It's a thundering nuisance. And if you're so foolish as to number (a), (b), (c) etc the (c) will become a copyright symbol. That's not much good for biochemistry where C means carbon, cytosine or cysteine more often than it means copyright. Automatic systems aren't intelligent. They should do what you say, explicitly. They should override the human user by inserting newlines in appropriate places in print statements or anything else.
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| From | fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 11:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <3501a465-8c2e-410f-8739-bf06effb8aa3@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55670 |
W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 03:19:23 UTC+1 użytkownik Stefan Ram napisał: > Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> writes: > >was thinking more of university CS courses where they find it easier to > >teach P vs NP problems in Python since they can concentrate on the > >truth tables instead of the language issues. > > I can't imagine what »to teach P vs NP problems /in Python/« > could mean. For this kind of material, the language an > algorithm is expressed in does not seem to matter much to me. > Possibly, it might help to concretely discuss possible > problems with C if we could see a specific example of Python > code used »to teach P vs NP problems /in Python/«. > > In the case of descriptions of travelling salesman > algorithms or similar algorithms used to illustrate P vs NP, > English-language pseudo code might be even more appropriate > when explaining P vs NP than Python. (Or, in Italy: > Italian-language pseudo code.) > > I'd also say (unrelated to the NP topic) that C is a > language for people who want to /implement/ a garbage > collector, while Java is for people who want to /use/ a > garbage collector. When you use a garbage collector you are > more productive and have less memory leaks, but someone has > to implement the garbage collector first. »Writing garbage > collectors is a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.« > thats true, in c the problem is you kave not only write some reletive simple 'middleware' (if i can call it like that) things, but you also need to project/design it ;/ thus c is more suitable for 'fundamental coding' > People who do not have the will or time to learn more > abstract or advanced concepts like garbage collection > should be more productive with languages like VBA or Java. > Especially people who use Microsoft® Office can become > productive with VBA very soon. When someone has no > pre-knowledge about programming, one should be more > productive sooner with VBA, BASIC or Java than with C. > The effort invested to learn C pays out later.
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| From | fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-02 14:20 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <b69d81c2-f256-4cf8-96fb-9e42d45ca7e5@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55694 |
W dniu piątek, 2 stycznia 2015 20:34:05 UTC+1 użytkownik fir napisał: > > thats true, in c the problem is you kave not only write some reletive simple 'middleware' (if i can call it like that) things, but you also need to project/design it ;/ > > thus c is more suitable for 'fundamental coding' > ps this somewhat leads to problems/topics where im getting lost (for eample if language for wider projects should be homogenous or not, if it would be better to have language where everything can be defined from the ground up, or to better use widely something that has strongly predefined 'middleware' etc - this is hard)
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| From | Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-04 15:54 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <b6d537b6-76d6-4fac-af76-bd120b450cc7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55656 |
On Thursday, January 1, 2015 2:55:53 PM UTC-5, Stefan Ram wrote: > > . When someone invests 30 hours to learn programming > it might not matter much whether he uses Python or C. > He will not get very far. Norvig suggests 10000 hours. > > When someone visits a watered-down Python course, it might > be just the first step for him. He might continue to learn > after the end of the course and eventually become proficient. In the case of transfer students, we're talking about a computer programming background sufficient to pass a data structures course, and to complete programming assignments in subsequent courses. We expect a 1-semester course in C to bring students to that level of proficiency; we often do not see transfer students possess that level of proficiency from a 1-semester Python course. Those courses are often too little and too easy, and do not seem to trade ease of programming for a stronger grounding in "principles." On Thursday, January 1, 2015 8:42:29 PM UTC-5, Greg Martin wrote: > > was thinking more of university CS courses where they find it easier to > teach P vs NP problems in Python since they can concentrate on the > truth tables instead of the language issues. In my experience, computer theory and computational complexity are not really taught in any specific language, because the material is sufficiently abstract, and is expressed more through mathematics and diagrams than through something like source code. Moreover, CS students don't get to those courses until after they have passed programming and data structures, and at that point they all know C (or whatever serious language the CS curriculum uses.) At that point there shouldn't be any need to gently express ideas in Python. --S
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| From | Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-04 16:45 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <ed3a809b-f3ae-4edf-8740-ce3d299168c1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55856 |
On Sunday, January 4, 2015 7:22:52 PM UTC-5, Stefan Ram wrote: > > But technically, it might not be related to the language, > because it should be possible to offer a course in C that is > watered-down and easy or a course in Python that contains a > wealth of material and is difficult. I mostly agree, except inasmuch as a C course will teach you about memory organization, binary representation, and other low-level stuff. Beyond that, Python courses are watered down not because Python is a rinky-dink language, but because it has become the standard language to teach programming to newbies. Much like Javascript, also a very sophisticated language, has been type-cast into this standard role of shoving things arounds on web pages, and has therefore become a standard language for self-taught web designers. --S
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| From | fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-06 06:05 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <43437e4c-1390-49ea-91e1-eeb68d7b7192@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55856 |
W dniu poniedziałek, 5 stycznia 2015 00:55:05 UTC+1 użytkownik Xcott Craver napisał: > On Thursday, January 1, 2015 2:55:53 PM UTC-5, Stefan Ram wrote: > > > > . When someone invests 30 hours to learn programming > > it might not matter much whether he uses Python or C. > > He will not get very far. Norvig suggests 10000 hours. > > > > When someone visits a watered-down Python course, it might > > be just the first step for him. He might continue to learn > > after the end of the course and eventually become proficient. > > In the case of transfer students, we're talking about a computer programming background > sufficient to pass a data structures course, and to complete programming assignments in > subsequent courses. > > We expect a 1-semester course in C to bring students to that level of proficiency; we > often do not see transfer students possess that level of proficiency from a 1-semester > Python course. Those courses are often too little and too easy, and do not seem to > trade ease of programming for a stronger grounding in "principles." > > On Thursday, January 1, 2015 8:42:29 PM UTC-5, Greg Martin wrote: > > > > was thinking more of university CS courses where they find it easier to > > teach P vs NP problems in Python since they can concentrate on the > > truth tables instead of the language issues. > > In my experience, computer theory and computational complexity are not really taught > in any specific language, because the material is sufficiently abstract, and is expressed > more through mathematics and diagrams than through something like source code. > > Moreover, CS students don't get to those courses until after they have passed > programming and data structures, and at that point they all know C (or whatever > serious language the CS curriculum uses.) At that point there shouldn't be any need > to gently express ideas in Python. > > --S for me both python and c seem to be extremes
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| From | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-03 07:12 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <902c61dd-bfa8-4083-b66e-03119baa3e13@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #55607 |
On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:55:11 PM UTC, James Kuyper wrote: > > To make your point, it's not sufficient to show that C is taught poorly > - in order to justify a claim that C programmers fall below the mean, > you also have to prove that other languages are NOT taught poorly. I > doubt that there's any language which is comparable to C in power, for > which you'd have any trouble collecting similar anecdotes. > Poorly relative to what? Relative to French? What does it really mean to say that C programming is poorly taught relative to another subject which poses a different kind of difficulty?
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| From | Siri Crews <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-01-03 10:29 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <chine.bleu-243BC2.10294303012015@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #55736 |
In article <902c61dd-bfa8-4083-b66e-03119baa3e13@googlegroups.com>, Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> wrote: > On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:55:11 PM UTC, James Kuyper wrote: > > > > To make your point, it's not sufficient to show that C is taught poorly > > - in order to justify a claim that C programmers fall below the mean, > > you also have to prove that other languages are NOT taught poorly. I > > doubt that there's any language which is comparable to C in power, for > > which you'd have any trouble collecting similar anecdotes. > > > Poorly relative to what? Relative to French? What does it really mean > to say that C programming is poorly taught relative to another subject > which poses a different kind of difficulty? Coders are not programmers. Anyone can code, just like anyone can draw. That doesn't mean you're going to spend $10,000, you'll be happy with someone who can just draw. Or code. -- :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' Icke's razor: Given two equally plausible explanations, choose the weirder. Be sure not to operate heavy machinery whilst on usenet.
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