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I need to vent some steam

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  I need to vent some steam Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> - 2015-03-05 17:01 +0100
    Re: I need to vent some steam Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-03-05 10:32 -0600
    Re: I need to vent some steam Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-03-05 17:04 +0000
      Re: I need to vent some steam Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-05 17:42 +0000
      Re: I need to vent some steam glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-05 19:16 +0000
        Re: I need to vent some steam jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2015-03-05 20:47 +0100
      Re: I need to vent some steam Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> - 2015-03-05 20:52 +0100
      Re: I need to vent some steam Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-05 22:20 +0000
    Re: I need to vent some steam Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-05 17:51 +0000
    Re: I need to vent some steam Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-05 22:20 +0000
    Re: I need to vent some steam Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-05 23:14 -0800
      Re: I need to vent some steam Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-06 10:41 +0000
        Re: I need to vent some steam Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-06 08:03 -0800
          Re: I need to vent some steam Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-06 16:50 +0000
            Re: I need to vent some steam Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-06 15:32 -0800
            Re: I need to vent some steam Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-03-07 07:59 -0800
              Re: I need to vent some steam Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-07 16:22 -0800
                Re: I need to vent some steam James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-03-07 19:45 -0500
                  Re: I need to vent some steam Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-07 17:21 -0800
                    Re: I need to vent some steam Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-08 10:29 +0000
                      Re: I need to vent some steam Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-08 13:37 -0700
            Re: I need to vent some steam Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-07 16:20 -0800
          Re: I need to vent some steam Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> - 2015-03-06 17:54 +0100
            Re: I need to vent some steam Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-06 09:58 -0800
      Re: I need to vent some steam Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-03-07 02:29 -0600
        Re: I need to vent some steam Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-03-07 11:01 +0000
        Re: I need to vent some steam Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-03-24 10:46 -0700
    Re: I need to vent some steam Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-03-06 08:34 -0500
      Re: I need to vent some steam Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-03-06 08:17 -0600
        Re: I need to vent some steam Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-06 08:02 -0800
        Re: I need to vent some steam Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-03-06 22:38 -0500
      Re: I need to vent some steam Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-03-06 15:44 -0800
        Re: I need to vent some steam Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-07 13:35 +1300
    Re: I need to vent some steam Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-07 07:42 +1300
    Re: I need to vent some steam raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-03-06 22:51 +0000
    Re: I need to vent some steam Michael Angelo Ravera <maravera@prodigy.net> - 2015-03-06 16:48 -0800
    Re: I need to vent some steam Xcott Craver <xcottcraver@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 08:52 -0700
      Re: I need to vent some steam Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> - 2015-03-09 21:11 +0100
        Re: I need to vent some steam Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-09 20:16 +0000
          Re: I need to vent some steam Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> - 2015-03-09 21:38 +0100
            Re: I need to vent some steam Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-03-09 20:54 +0000
              Re: I need to vent some steam David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-10 09:02 +0100
                Re: I need to vent some steam Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-10 05:34 -0500
          Re: I need to vent some steam Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-09 19:15 -0500
        Re: I need to vent some steam Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-03-10 07:55 -0700

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#58036

On 2015-03-09, Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:16:41 +0000 (UTC)
> Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> wrote:
>> You mean the N/A was literally marshaled as a value in that silly
>> slash-delimited format, with no escaping, thus screwing the syntax?
>
>  Yes. And that airport reminds me of brainfart #4:
>
>  IATA fallback-tags. A proper IATA bag tag is a 10-digit number starting
> with 1. All others are designated as fallback, subject to local
> interpretation. At the same airport, a regional carrier had the habit of
> using the same fallback on each and every bag. That was all fine, because
> the fallback tag got rerouted to a manual handling station, where the
> destination would be entered. Until the day, where the Ops people noted that
> it would be an improvement "If a manually coded FB tag could be entered in
> the system, so the operators at [other terminal] don't have to code it
> again." And thus, one day all luggage for people travelling with said local
> carrier was rerouted to Kinshasa.

Lucky then that the carrier used the same fallback tag, or else the baggage
might have been split up into multiple wrong destinations based on different
local interpretations of different fallback tags at [other terminal].

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#58048

On 09/03/15 21:54, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2015-03-09, Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:16:41 +0000 (UTC)
>> Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> wrote:
>>> You mean the N/A was literally marshaled as a value in that silly
>>> slash-delimited format, with no escaping, thus screwing the syntax?
>>
>>  Yes. And that airport reminds me of brainfart #4:
>>
>>  IATA fallback-tags. A proper IATA bag tag is a 10-digit number starting
>> with 1. All others are designated as fallback, subject to local
>> interpretation. At the same airport, a regional carrier had the habit of
>> using the same fallback on each and every bag. That was all fine, because
>> the fallback tag got rerouted to a manual handling station, where the
>> destination would be entered. Until the day, where the Ops people noted that
>> it would be an improvement "If a manually coded FB tag could be entered in
>> the system, so the operators at [other terminal] don't have to code it
>> again." And thus, one day all luggage for people travelling with said local
>> carrier was rerouted to Kinshasa.
> 
> Lucky then that the carrier used the same fallback tag, or else the baggage
> might have been split up into multiple wrong destinations based on different
> local interpretations of different fallback tags at [other terminal].
> 

I seem to remember reading about problems with the software for Denver's
baggage handling system at their new (new at the time - some 15 or 20
years ago) airport.  Not only would it regularly route luggage to a
variety of incorrect destinations, but it managed to route one suitcase
to two different incorrect destinations by ripping it in half first!

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#58052

On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:02:28 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

>On 09/03/15 21:54, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2015-03-09, Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:16:41 +0000 (UTC)
>>> Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> wrote:
>>>> You mean the N/A was literally marshaled as a value in that silly
>>>> slash-delimited format, with no escaping, thus screwing the syntax?
>>>
>>>  Yes. And that airport reminds me of brainfart #4:
>>>
>>>  IATA fallback-tags. A proper IATA bag tag is a 10-digit number starting
>>> with 1. All others are designated as fallback, subject to local
>>> interpretation. At the same airport, a regional carrier had the habit of
>>> using the same fallback on each and every bag. That was all fine, because
>>> the fallback tag got rerouted to a manual handling station, where the
>>> destination would be entered. Until the day, where the Ops people noted that
>>> it would be an improvement "If a manually coded FB tag could be entered in
>>> the system, so the operators at [other terminal] don't have to code it
>>> again." And thus, one day all luggage for people travelling with said local
>>> carrier was rerouted to Kinshasa.
>> 
>> Lucky then that the carrier used the same fallback tag, or else the baggage
>> might have been split up into multiple wrong destinations based on different
>> local interpretations of different fallback tags at [other terminal].
>> 
>
>I seem to remember reading about problems with the software for Denver's
>baggage handling system at their new (new at the time - some 15 or 20
>years ago) airport.  Not only would it regularly route luggage to a
>variety of incorrect destinations, but it managed to route one suitcase
>to two different incorrect destinations by ripping it in half first!


Yep, a real disaster.  It was so bad that the baggage handling system
delayed the opening of the airport for some 16 months.  And it never
worked for arriving bags, and it was used in a restricted form only
for outgoing bags, until it was discarded after about a decade.

A failure on all sorts of levels.  Starting with management.  None of
the companies that actually responded to the bid request said the
requested system could be completed on time.  Management then signed a
contract with BAE.  Then there were multiple requirements changes
along the way, multiple technical problems (everything from glitchy
power, and excessive sensitivity to that, to having the buildings
built long before the baggage system was designed, leading to severe
routing problems*, little redundancy in the network of PCs controlling
this stuff**, little or no jam detection***) and...



*The number of required (too) sharp turns lead to the infamous problem
of baggage carts tossing bags into certain dark corners as they
rounded the bends.  The "solution" was to halve the speed of the
system.  That, in conjunction with the too small queuing areas for
carts, led to massive pileups of bags as loads peaked at various
stations.

**There were something like 100 PCs scattered around the airport
controlling the baggage handling system, and many individual failures
could cripple large parts of the system or even all of it.

***So you'd have a power glitch knock down a PC, baggage carts would
continue to whiz into the now uncontrolled section, and you'd soon
have an autobahn style pileup.

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#58042

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:16:41 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
wrote:

>On 2015-03-09, Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> wrote:
>> 2. The IATA standard for information about flights is a key-value system,
>>    encoded as key/value/key/value/... For some reason the flight planning
>>    system at one airport was sending N/A when a Gate wasn't yet planned. And
>>    when it got a NACK on that telegram, it resent it infinitely.
>
>You mean the N/A was literally marshaled as a value in that silly
>slash-delimited format, with no escaping, thus screwing the syntax?


I think the slash delimited format dates back to teletypes.

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#58055

Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@geostat.dk> writes:
[...]
> 2. The IATA standard for information about flights is a key-value system,
>    encoded as key/value/key/value/... For some reason the flight planning
>    system at one airport was sending N/A when a Gate wasn't yet planned. And
>    when it got a NACK on that telegram, it resent it infinitely.

I'd probably resent that infinitely myself.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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