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Groups > comp.lang.c > #60126 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-04-16 13:08 +0200 |
| Last post | 2015-04-18 08:11 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 192 — 30 participants |
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Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2015-04-16 13:08 +0200
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-16 12:14 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-04-16 17:18 +0000
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 18:43 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-16 21:03 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-16 23:38 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-17 07:39 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-17 13:31 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-17 14:46 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-18 11:46 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-18 15:35 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-22 10:57 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-19 11:58 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-20 10:50 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 17:55 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-17 23:01 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-18 00:24 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-18 07:50 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-18 11:56 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-19 14:59 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-19 11:47 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-19 18:44 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-19 18:34 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 01:42 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 08:14 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 10:30 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 13:56 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Ian Pilcher <arequipeno@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 18:39 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-23 12:37 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-23 20:25 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-24 07:58 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-24 12:58 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-24 22:13 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-28 13:05 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-30 08:40 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-01 08:40 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-03 11:42 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-05-04 17:43 +1200
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-04 07:34 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-05-08 17:12 +0300
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-10 07:40 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-04 08:49 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-04 12:23 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-20 07:49 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 14:27 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-20 09:39 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 17:48 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-20 15:58 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 22:25 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 13:22 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 11:15 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 15:02 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 12:51 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 21:17 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-20 16:09 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 00:33 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 16:26 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 15:46 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-20 16:17 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-21 07:43 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 08:06 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-04-22 21:55 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 20:04 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 13:22 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 21:42 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 16:58 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 01:16 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-04-21 02:19 +0200
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-20 23:14 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-21 11:47 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-22 00:13 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 08:36 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-22 03:15 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 11:52 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2015-04-22 09:04 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 17:14 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-20 15:24 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-21 00:24 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-21 09:33 +0000
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-04-21 11:57 +0000
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-21 10:22 -0500
The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-04-21 15:38 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-21 15:58 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-21 18:09 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-21 17:42 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 10:47 +0200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-22 20:56 +1200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) guinness.tony@gmail.com - 2015-04-22 03:53 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-22 11:01 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-23 08:17 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 10:21 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-22 11:17 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-04-22 09:59 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 18:48 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-22 14:35 -0500
Re: The Metric system Ben Bacarisse <ben.lists@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 21:22 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 09:58 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-25 12:33 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 12:18 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-25 13:51 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-25 16:34 +0200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-25 17:00 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-04-25 16:59 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-28 16:04 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-30 04:22 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-30 09:27 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-30 12:01 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-30 13:38 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-25 16:36 +0200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-26 08:20 +1200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) "Bill Davy" <Bill@SynectixLtd.com> - 2015-04-25 21:33 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-26 12:07 +0200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-26 14:22 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-26 15:44 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-22 13:11 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 17:05 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-22 18:30 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-22 17:35 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-22 19:15 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-23 11:05 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-23 12:54 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-23 14:12 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-23 15:50 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-23 16:43 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-23 18:09 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-04-22 13:15 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-04-22 19:17 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 20:48 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-04-23 08:11 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-23 12:58 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-23 14:13 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:08 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-22 17:15 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 09:18 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-25 13:02 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-26 14:26 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-05-03 11:48 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-05 18:20 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-05-05 12:43 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 11:32 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) "Bill Davy" <Bill@SynectixLtd.com> - 2015-04-22 14:31 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-23 07:51 +1200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) "Bill Davy" <Bill@SynectixLtd.com> - 2015-04-23 08:05 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:10 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-26 09:27 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-26 10:55 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-26 07:19 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-26 12:59 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-28 07:07 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-28 09:51 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) guinness.tony@gmail.com - 2015-04-28 08:04 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-28 16:19 +0100
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-28 19:15 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-28 16:06 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) guinness.tony@gmail.com - 2015-04-28 09:39 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-28 16:51 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) guinness.tony@gmail.com - 2015-04-29 05:08 -0700
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-29 13:47 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-28 13:03 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-05-10 12:24 -0400
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-04-21 18:12 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-21 19:34 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-21 12:46 -0500
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-22 07:42 +1200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-21 20:13 +0000
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 10:52 +0200
Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 09:18 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-21 22:25 +0000
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-23 15:59 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-23 11:51 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-23 11:26 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-20 16:15 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 17:23 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 13:17 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-20 15:26 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-20 16:15 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-04-21 00:42 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-22 11:15 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 21:50 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-20 17:04 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-18 08:22 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-19 18:23 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-19 13:22 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-19 21:51 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 10:01 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-20 05:08 -0500
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 11:37 +0100
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-23 20:13 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2015-04-18 09:15 +0200
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-18 12:13 -0700
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-16 23:40 -0400
Re: Problems with va_list & friends... Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-18 08:11 -0700
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-25 16:34 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhg8it$cik$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #61081 |
On 25/04/15 14:51, Bartc wrote: > On 25/04/2015 13:18, Richard Bos wrote: >> Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: > >>> BTW here's a little puzzle, try and match following categories of things >>> to be measured: >>> >>> Person's weight (UK) >>> Sack of potatoes >>> Markings on rotary kitchen scales >>> Person's weight (USA) >>> >>> with the corresponding units chosen from this list (lbs, ounces, stone, >>> hundredweight). >>> >>> In imperial is easy to guess which is which. But now try the same thing >>> with metric: (Kg, Kg, Kg, Kg). It's a little bit trickier... >> >> On the contrary, it's easier. It's all kg (and not a Kelvin-gram, >> either, whatever _that_ is). What could be easier? > > Yes, it's easy to get it wrong. If there was a quantity associated with > each, or some context that you had to deduce, then which kg is which > becomes important. I cannot figure out why you think there is an issue here. Do you get confused between flour and sugar, both of which are typically measured in the same unit? Do you find yourself confusing babies and apples, both of which are weighed in the same units? > > (Imperial measures sometimes have a pattern that don't even need a unit > specified. So I can read in an American pulp novel that someone is 38, > five-ten and 180, and is hit with a length of four-by-two (or shot with > a .22), and know exactly what it means. A piece of 100x50mm (nominal) > doesn't quite have the same ring. It could also refer to anything.) These sorts of things are more descriptions than measurements. A "four by two" is a type of plank - and its descriptive name gives an image of the size (despite it not being 4 inches by 2 inches, and despite there being no indication of length). Nobody but soldiers and gun-fanatics know what the ".22" of a ".22 bullet" actually measures, or what unit it is in. Sometimes these are given in millimetres, sometimes fractions of an inch, sometimes in mils (thousandths of an inch), sometimes in hundredths of an inch. It doesn't matter - a .22 is a small bullet, a 9mm is medium size, and a 45 is a big one. > >> Nah, give me the simplicity of knowing what the next unit up is. I can >> do without all those prime-number conversion factors. > > Presumably you don't have problem with 60 seconds in a minute, and 60 > minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, 7 days in a week and so on? > > If someone was to bring in a metric system of dividing up a day, you > would probably rebel against no matter how much sense it all made. >
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| From | Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-25 17:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhgdll$1du$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #61084 |
On 25/04/2015 15:34, David Brown wrote: > On 25/04/15 14:51, Bartc wrote: >> On 25/04/2015 13:18, Richard Bos wrote: >>> Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: >> >>>> BTW here's a little puzzle, try and match following categories of >>>> things >>>> to be measured: >>>> >>>> Person's weight (UK) >>>> Sack of potatoes >>>> Markings on rotary kitchen scales >>>> Person's weight (USA) >>>> >>>> with the corresponding units chosen from this list (lbs, ounces, stone, >>>> hundredweight). >>>> >>>> In imperial is easy to guess which is which. But now try the same thing >>>> with metric: (Kg, Kg, Kg, Kg). It's a little bit trickier... >>> >>> On the contrary, it's easier. It's all kg (and not a Kelvin-gram, >>> either, whatever _that_ is). What could be easier? >> >> Yes, it's easy to get it wrong. If there was a quantity associated with >> each, or some context that you had to deduce, then which kg is which >> becomes important. > > I cannot figure out why you think there is an issue here. Do you get > confused between flour and sugar, both of which are typically measured > in the same unit? Do you find yourself confusing babies and apples, > both of which are weighed in the same units? Use your imagination. Suppose you were Sherlock Holmes and you had a clue which was a torn-off corner of a piece of paper with a quantity written on it. Which would give you more information: one that said 9st 6lbs, or one that simply said 60Kg? Imperial has just more redundancy, more 'shape', more different factors than just a monotonous series of factors of ten. And, yes, metric units can be confusing because they all look the same and have the same shape. And it so easy to convert from one subunit to another, by scaling by ten or moving a decimal point, that it can be done inadvertently, or unconsciously, without always updating the mm, cm or m unit. Compare these quantities: 1,220 mm 1.220 m (which are the same) with: 1.220 mm 1,220 m (which are different by 1000000:1 ratio). The difference is subtle. How many seconds to grasp what the shape of this table is: 750mm by 180cm? DIY stores especially like to mix and match their metric units. That's also popular with supermarkets where their unit pricing is sometimes per Kg or litre, sometimes per 100g or 100ml, just to confuse. (Hint: it was 2.5' by 6'). -- Bartc
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| From | gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-25 16:59 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhgh5g$omr$1@news.xmission.com> |
| In reply to | #61088 |
In article <mhgdll$1du$1@dont-email.me>, Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: ... >Use your imagination... That's not allowed in CLC. And certainly never even dreamed of by the CLC "regs". So, knock it off. This goes for you, too, Malcolm. -- When people wish to comment on something on which they have personal knowledge, but do not wish to convey the fact that it is personal knowledge, they often qualify their statement with "it's my understanding". For instance, it's my understanding that when some women are depressed they sit on the futon in a Snuggie, watch Lifetime, and eat a whole tub of Rocky Road ice cream.
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| From | raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-28 16:04 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <553fade4.379562@news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #61088 |
Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: > On 25/04/2015 15:34, David Brown wrote: > > I cannot figure out why you think there is an issue here. Do you get > > confused between flour and sugar, both of which are typically measured > > in the same unit? Do you find yourself confusing babies and apples, > > both of which are weighed in the same units? > > Use your imagination. Suppose you were Sherlock Holmes and you had a > clue which was a torn-off corner of a piece of paper with a quantity > written on it. Which would give you more information: one that said 9st > 6lbs, or one that simply said 60Kg? The latter: like the famous "RACHE" clue, it would tell me that the person who wrote it wanted to point me in the direction of something he himself doesn't know enough about. In this case, it would be an Anglophone pretending to use the SI, and doing so wrongly; in the former... but that would be a spoiler. > And, yes, metric units can be confusing because they all look the same > and have the same shape. Maybe to peasants. Not to scientists. Are you a clod or a learned man? > (which are different by 1000000:1 ratio). The difference is subtle. How > many seconds to grasp what the shape of this table is: 750mm by 180cm? That's as dumb as measuring it in inches by feet. Yes, any system can be abused. Big deal. Your claim that the SI is more easily so abused than the Imperial system is disproven daily by _actual_ scientists, not sociologists, all around the world. Richard
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| From | Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-30 04:22 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <kfn4mnxc12v.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> |
| In reply to | #61199 |
raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) writes: > Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: > >> (which are different by 1000000:1 ratio). The difference is >> subtle. How many seconds to grasp what the shape of this table >> is: 750mm by 180cm? > > That's as dumb as measuring it in inches by feet. Did you hear about the local community ordinance that regulates ramp inclines using units of centimeters of rise per foot of run? (Supposedly actually happened, though I can't vouch for that.)
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| From | Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-30 09:27 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhte2m$qts$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #61313 |
On 4/30/2015 6:22 AM, Tim Rentsch wrote: > raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) writes: > >> Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: >> >>> (which are different by 1000000:1 ratio). The difference is >>> subtle. How many seconds to grasp what the shape of this table >>> is: 750mm by 180cm? >> >> That's as dumb as measuring it in inches by feet. > > Did you hear about the local community ordinance that regulates > ramp inclines using units of centimeters of rise per foot of run? > (Supposedly actually happened, though I can't vouch for that.) > Palo Alto, I believe. Martin Shobe
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| From | Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-30 12:01 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <3tn4ka1sk0o20knkoj51fuam6v8adnmjor@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #61313 |
On Thu, 30 Apr 2015 04:22:48 -0700, Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote: >raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) writes: > >> Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: >> >>> (which are different by 1000000:1 ratio). The difference is >>> subtle. How many seconds to grasp what the shape of this table >>> is: 750mm by 180cm? >> >> That's as dumb as measuring it in inches by feet. > >Did you hear about the local community ordinance that regulates >ramp inclines using units of centimeters of rise per foot of run? >(Supposedly actually happened, though I can't vouch for that.) A number of the (US) EPA's pollution rules for cars are in grams per mile.
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| From | Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-30 13:38 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mht7mv$3i2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #61199 |
On 28/04/2015 17:04, Richard Bos wrote: >> (which are different by 1000000:1 ratio). The difference is subtle. How >> many seconds to grasp what the shape of this table is: 750mm by 180cm? > > That's as dumb as measuring it in inches by feet. Yes, any system can be > abused. Big deal. I have a steel rule that is 6m or 20' long, by about an inch wide. Mixing units needn't be dumb. The point about my example is that mm and cm are used interchangeably; you might see 750mm as often as 75cm. For lengths of a few inches to a few feet, both mm or cm are deemed appropriate. Sooner or later this mixup of cm and mm, and sometimes m, is going to bite. That is less likely with inches and feet. I also have to think an extra fraction of second to realise that 2500mm is about 8 feet, and 2500cm is 80 feet. The metric system, at least for lengths, is not human-friendly when it comes to visualisation. > Your claim that the SI is more easily so abused than > the Imperial system is disproven daily by _actual_ scientists, not > sociologists, all around the world. Who cares about scientists? I'm talking about ordinary people. (I've just had to order some garments on-line. The chest sizes were only shown in inches. In the UK imperial measure is still prevalent everywhere.) -- Bartc
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-25 16:36 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhg8ms$cik$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #61076 |
On 25/04/15 14:18, Richard Bos wrote: > Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: > >> On 25/04/2015 10:58, Richard Bos wrote: > >>> You can rely on the metric system. If a certain cable is a >>> kilogram per metre, then I also know that it's 2 kg per 2 m, 10 kg per >>> 10 m a.k.a. dam, and 1 gram per millimetre. >>> Now try this in the "less confusing" Imperial system. It's a pound per >>> yard. _How_ many stones per furlong? >> >> That just doesn't happen. You use 'stone' for measuring people's weight, >> in a way that everyone understands. > > Well, make it how many _tonnes_ per furlong, then. Or per fathom, if > that's also wrong. Or are those only used for bulk coal? > >> With metric, I frequently get mm and cm mixed up when they occur on >> plans on in measurements. > > Well, sorry, but I'll have to be harsh, then: that's _your_ problem, not > the system's. Millions upon millions of people in the civilised world > manage not to confuse mm and cm on a daily basis; if you Limeys and your > colonial overlords are too dense to do so, don't blame the SI, blame > your genes and your educational system. > Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I can't speak for Merkins, but plenty of British (myself included) have no problem with cm and mm. This is a personal problem of Bart's, not a national one. There are plenty of British who /like/ the old imperial units, and are more familiar with them, but I don't think it's common to have trouble understanding metric units or to get them mixed up.
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| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-26 08:20 +1200 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <cq2b97Fci1nU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #61085 |
David Brown wrote: > > Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I can't speak for Merkins, > but plenty of British (myself included) have no problem with cm and mm. > This is a personal problem of Bart's, not a national one. There are > plenty of British who /like/ the old imperial units, and are more > familiar with them, but I don't think it's common to have trouble > understanding metric units or to get them mixed up. Even in fully metric parts of the wold such us Oz and NZ, people still have a hard time understanding metric babies... -- Ian Collins
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| From | "Bill Davy" <Bill@SynectixLtd.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-25 21:33 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <cq2c05F2fggU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #61099 |
"Ian Collins" <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:cq2b97Fci1nU1@mid.individual.net... > David Brown wrote: >> >> Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I can't speak for Merkins, >> but plenty of British (myself included) have no problem with cm and mm. >> This is a personal problem of Bart's, not a national one. There are >> plenty of British who /like/ the old imperial units, and are more >> familiar with them, but I don't think it's common to have trouble >> understanding metric units or to get them mixed up. > > Even in fully metric parts of the wold such us Oz and NZ, people still > have a hard time understanding metric babies... > > -- > Ian Collins You mean 6-3 is not six foot three inches?!
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-26 12:07 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhidbk$fp5$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #61099 |
On 25/04/15 22:20, Ian Collins wrote: > David Brown wrote: >> >> Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I can't speak for Merkins, >> but plenty of British (myself included) have no problem with cm and mm. >> This is a personal problem of Bart's, not a national one. There are >> plenty of British who /like/ the old imperial units, and are more >> familiar with them, but I don't think it's common to have trouble >> understanding metric units or to get them mixed up. > > Even in fully metric parts of the wold such us Oz and NZ, people still > have a hard time understanding metric babies... > That could be shorted to "people still have a hard time understanding babies"!
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| From | Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-26 14:22 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhiooj$pua$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #61085 |
On 25/04/15 15:36, David Brown wrote: <snip> > Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I can't speak for Merkins, > but plenty of British (myself included) have no problem with cm and mm. > This is a personal problem of Bart's, not a national one. There are > plenty of British who /like/ the old imperial units, and are more > familiar with them, but I don't think it's common to have trouble > understanding metric units or to get them mixed up. Except when it comes to politicians, perhaps. I can't get the hang of these new-fangled Millibands. Bring back Michael Foot! -- Richard Heathfield Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999 Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
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| From | raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-26 15:44 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <553d05a5.17624859@news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #61132 |
Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote: > On 25/04/15 15:36, David Brown wrote: > > > Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I can't speak for Merkins, > > but plenty of British (myself included) have no problem with cm and mm. > > This is a personal problem of Bart's, not a national one. There are > > plenty of British who /like/ the old imperial units, and are more > > familiar with them, but I don't think it's common to have trouble > > understanding metric units or to get them mixed up. > > Except when it comes to politicians, perhaps. I can't get the hang of > these new-fangled Millibands. Bring back Michael Foot! Well, yeah, but note that that's officially a Mi_l_iband - well, one- anna-arf-ovvem, counting his bother[1] Chimpface Dave as the prospective Minister of Administrative Affairs - this misspelling proving that Labour is even more continentophobe than the UKDotUSAP. Though, to be honest, a) he should be called Nanoband and b) Cameroon isn't a jot better, and Nigelle "Froggie name" Farrage is worse. As for Michael Foot - he precedes my interest in British politics, but from what I _have_ gleaned: seconded. And Tony Benn. Richard [1] TOBAGO, as they say elsewhere
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-22 13:11 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <5537D632.3050509@verizon.net> |
| In reply to | #60750 |
On 04/22/2015 12:17 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote: > On 22-Apr-15 04:21, Richard Heathfield wrote: >> On 22/04/15 09:47, David Brown wrote: >>> People in most countries use imperial measurements for some rough >>> descriptions - but they /measure/ in metric. >> >> At school, they taught me to use English measurements in day-to-day >> life, and SI measurements in the laboratory. It is a policy that I >> have always dutifully observed. > > In my (US) schools, science classes used metric, but that's it. As a > result, students promptly forget the metric system as soon as they > graduate--aside from those who go into scientific fields, obviously. > > Part of the problem is that without daily use, we don't get a sense of > how "big" the various SI units are; I know what a pound feels like, but > not a kilogram. Substituting meters for yards and liters for quarts > mostly works, but kilometers and Celsius require a more complicated > conversion. For the less common units, e.g. Newtons, I don't even know > the non-metric one, so they're mostly irrelevant. The non-metric equivalent of Newtons is "pounds(force)", to be distinguished from "pounds(mass)", which correspond to Kilograms. To make things as confusing as possible, people seldom do distinguish "pounds(force)" from "pounds(mass)" - the main exception being engineers who have to work in those units. There's other options available: There's an obscure unit called the poundal, which is the amount of force required to accelerate a mass of one pound at the rate of 1.0 (ft/sec^2). It's equal to 1/32.174049 pounds(force). There's another obscure unit called the slug, which is the amount of mass that requires one pound of force to accelerate it at a rate of 1.0 (ft/sec^2). It's equal to 32.174049 pounds(mass). All of the standard physics formulas familiar to those trained using metric units can be used unchanged if you consistently use poundals for force, and pounds for mass. They can also be used unchanged if you use pounds for force, and slugs for mass. In principle, you could get into a big mess by trying to use both conventions in different parts of the same calculation. However, I've never met anyone who seriously uses either system, so I have no idea how often the temptation comes up to use both of them at once.
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| From | Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-22 17:05 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <ug6gjalmf12s74uinqc4ifbh562truqjqb@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #60755 |
On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 13:11:14 -0400, James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> wrote: >On 04/22/2015 12:17 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote: >> On 22-Apr-15 04:21, Richard Heathfield wrote: >>> On 22/04/15 09:47, David Brown wrote: >>>> People in most countries use imperial measurements for some rough >>>> descriptions - but they /measure/ in metric. >>> >>> At school, they taught me to use English measurements in day-to-day >>> life, and SI measurements in the laboratory. It is a policy that I >>> have always dutifully observed. >> >> In my (US) schools, science classes used metric, but that's it. As a >> result, students promptly forget the metric system as soon as they >> graduate--aside from those who go into scientific fields, obviously. >> >> Part of the problem is that without daily use, we don't get a sense of >> how "big" the various SI units are; I know what a pound feels like, but >> not a kilogram. Substituting meters for yards and liters for quarts >> mostly works, but kilometers and Celsius require a more complicated >> conversion. For the less common units, e.g. Newtons, I don't even know >> the non-metric one, so they're mostly irrelevant. > >The non-metric equivalent of Newtons is "pounds(force)", to be >distinguished from "pounds(mass)", which correspond to Kilograms. To >make things as confusing as possible, people seldom do distinguish >"pounds(force)" from "pounds(mass)" - the main exception being engineers >who have to work in those units. Except when they screw up and don't, and leave us with absurdities as the efficiency of rocket motors being specified in units of *seconds*. ISP (specific impulse) is the measure of how many seconds a rocket motor can produce one pound(force) with one pound(mass) of fuel. So the actual unit should be in terms of (lbf*s/lbm), but if you loose the qualifiers on the two pounds, and cancel the remaining "lb"s, you get just seconds... >There's other options available: >There's an obscure unit called the poundal, which is the amount of force >required to accelerate a mass of one pound at the rate of 1.0 >(ft/sec^2). It's equal to 1/32.174049 pounds(force). >There's another obscure unit called the slug, which is the amount of >mass that requires one pound of force to accelerate it at a rate of 1.0 >(ft/sec^2). It's equal to 32.174049 pounds(mass). They're only obscure today (as opposed to in the past), since only the English Engineering system is still really in use (which uses lbf/lbm), and the British Gravitational and English Absolute systems (slug and poundal, respectively), are now just historical curiosities.
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-22 18:30 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <5538210B.7010101@verizon.net> |
| In reply to | #60809 |
On 04/22/2015 06:05 PM, Robert Wessel wrote: ... > Except when they screw up and don't, and leave us with absurdities as > the efficiency of rocket motors being specified in units of *seconds*. > > ISP (specific impulse) is the measure of how many seconds a rocket > motor can produce one pound(force) with one pound(mass) of fuel. So > the actual unit should be in terms of (lbf*s/lbm), but if you loose > the qualifiers on the two pounds, and cancel the remaining "lb"s, you > get just seconds... You've got some of the details wrong there, though the conclusion, and it's ridiculousness, are both correct. I was thinking of mentioning that, but when I refreshed my memory on the subject by checking Wikipedia, I learned that there's a (somewhat ridiculous) way of approaching the definition of specific impulse that makes the cancellation technically correct. Specific impulse is the amount of impulse (mass*change in velocity) that can be produced by a rocket engine, divided by the amount of propellant used to produce that impulse. If you divide both the numerator and the denominator by time, the numerator becomes the force produced by the rocket, and the denominator becomes the amount of propellant used per unit of time. Here's the key point: if you measure the amount of propellant by it's mass (the reasonable thing to do) then specific impulse ends up with units of velocity - it is, in fact, essentially the same as the exhaust velocity. However, if you measure the amount of propellant by it's weight at 1G, which is an amount of force, then it becomes (force/(force/time)), which has units of time, as you indicated. To reach that conclusion, they are cancelling pounds(force) with pounds(force), which is technically perfectly valid. What makes this ridiculous is the fact that the weight of the propellant that is being used in this calculation is its weight due to gravity at the surface of the earth. This is a meaningless quantity for most uses of rockets, which almost never stay precisely on the surface of the earth (except for the rockets used to achieve world land speed records). The mass of the propellant is a much more meaningful way to measure the amount of propellant, being independent of how fast the rocket is accelerating.
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| From | Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-22 17:35 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mh97m7$g2u$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #60755 |
On 22-Apr-15 12:11, James Kuyper wrote: > On 04/22/2015 12:17 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote: >> Part of the problem is that without daily use, we don't get a sense >> of how "big" the various SI units are; I know what a pound feels >> like, but not a kilogram. Substituting meters for yards and liters >> for quarts mostly works, but kilometers and Celsius require a more >> complicated conversion. For the less common units, e.g. Newtons, I >> don't even know the non-metric one, so they're mostly irrelevant. > > The non-metric equivalent of Newtons is "pounds(force)", to be > distinguished from "pounds(mass)", which correspond to Kilograms. To > make things as confusing as possible, people seldom do distinguish > "pounds(force)" from "pounds(mass)" - the main exception being > engineers who have to work in those units. In school, we were told that we'd weigh less in pounds (weight=force) but the same in kilograms (weight=mass) on the moon. That confused me on the topic for _years_. I can't recall any other cases where this caused confusion, and I've never used Newtons outside science class. I've run into Newton-meters and foot-pounds for torque, but the latter seems to clearly refer to pounds(force); foot-pounds(mass) doesn't seem to make any sense. One I do have problems with is Volt-Amps vs Watts; I learned long ago that 1V*1A = 1VA = 1W, but when I used that in some online discussions, I was told that only applied if you assume something called "unity", which of course didn't apply to the problem at hand. Argh! S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-22 19:15 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <55382B7D.4030503@verizon.net> |
| In reply to | #60818 |
On 04/22/2015 06:35 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote: ... > In school, we were told that we'd weigh less in pounds (weight=force) > but the same in kilograms (weight=mass) on the moon. That confused me > on the topic for _years_. That statement uses versions of the word "weigh" three times, with only second one being completely correct as far as physics is concerned. The correct statement is that you would weigh less on the moon (regardless of whether you measured your weight in pounds(force), poundals, or Newtons), but that you would mass the same (regardless of whether you measured your mass in pounds(mass), slugs, or kilograms). A spring scale measures your weight. A balance scale, on the other hand, compares your weight to the weight of something else. As long as both things being compared were subject to the same gravitational field, the result would be independent of the intensity of that field, and could therefore be described as measuring your mass, which has that same independence. > One I do have problems with is Volt-Amps vs Watts; I learned long ago > that 1V*1A = 1VA = 1W, but when I used that in some online discussions, > I was told that only applied if you assume something called "unity", > which of course didn't apply to the problem at hand. Argh! For DC electronics, Power (Watts) = Voltage (Volts) * Current (Amps). For alternating current, that formula remains true instantaneously, but you need to integrate over one entire cycle and divide by the length of that cycle to determine the net power transmitted. If V and A are the amplitudes of sinusoidally oscillating voltage and current, the value of that integral is proportional to V*A by a factor that depends upon the phase shift between the voltage and the current. I'd have to think harder than I have time for to give you the formula for that factor. If the voltage and current are NOT simple sinusoids, in general it gets even more complicated. True square waves are easy to evaluate - but hard to achieve in real life.
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| From | Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-04-23 11:05 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: The Metric system (Was: Problems with va_list & friends...) |
| Message-ID | <mhb56t$lb7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #60827 |
On 22-Apr-15 18:15, James Kuyper wrote: > On 04/22/2015 06:35 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote: .... >> In school, we were told that we'd weigh less in pounds >> (weight=force) but the same in kilograms (weight=mass) on the moon. >> That confused me on the topic for _years_. > > That statement uses versions of the word "weigh" three times, with > only second one being completely correct as far as physics is > concerned. > > The correct statement is that you would weigh less on the moon > (regardless of whether you measured your weight in pounds(force), > poundals, or Newtons), but that you would mass the same (regardless > of whether you measured your mass in pounds(mass), slugs, or > kilograms). Indeed, but "weight" was used for both force and mass in the same lesson, with a "pound" as a unit of force compared to a "kilogram" as a unit of mass. That would have been back in elementary school, and it may have been the first time metric units were used at all, so you can see how that would have screwed up my thinking. >> One I do have problems with is Volt-Amps vs Watts; I learned long >> ago that 1V*1A = 1VA = 1W, but when I used that in some online >> discussions, I was told that only applied if you assume something >> called "unity", which of course didn't apply to the problem at >> hand. Argh! > > For DC electronics, Power (Watts) = Voltage (Volts) * Current > (Amps). For alternating current, that formula remains true > instantaneously, but you need to integrate over one entire cycle and > divide by the length of that cycle to determine the net power > transmitted. If V and A are the amplitudes of sinusoidally > oscillating voltage and current, the value of that integral is > proportional to V*A by a factor that depends upon the phase shift > between the voltage and the current. I'd have to think harder than I > have time for to give you the formula for that factor. If the voltage > and current are NOT simple sinusoids, in general it gets even more > complicated. True square waves are easy to evaluate - but hard to > achieve in real life. Ah, so "unity" refers to having no phase shift between the two? I didn't realize there could/would be any phase shift at all, so that explains my problem. I don't need the formula; understanding why (and when) 1VA!=1W is good enough for my purposes. S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
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