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Self-taught C

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  Self-taught C Sleepy Duke <josh.izzard@gmail.com> - 2012-02-03 09:24 -0800
    Re: Self-taught C "Bl0ckeduser ." <bl0ckedusersoft@gmail.com> - 2012-02-03 11:54 -0800
      Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-05 04:34 -0800
    Re: Self-taught C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-02-04 05:38 -0800
      Re: Self-taught C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-08 16:42 +0000
        Re: Self-taught C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-08 11:50 -0500
          Re: Self-taught C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-13 22:07 +0000
            Re: Self-taught C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-13 17:25 -0500
        Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 00:42 -0800
          Re: Self-taught C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-02-09 05:05 -0800
            Re: Self-taught C Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 13:31 +0000
              Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 06:39 -0800
              Re: Self-taught C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-02-09 07:53 -0800
                Re: Self-taught C blp@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff) - 2012-02-09 09:32 -0800
                  Re: Self-taught C Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> - 2012-02-09 12:34 -0800
                    Re: Self-taught C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 16:06 -0500
                      Re: Self-taught C Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> - 2012-02-09 14:17 -0800
                        Re: Self-taught C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 17:46 -0500
                          Re: Self-taught C "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-02-18 01:08 +0000
                            Re: Self-taught C "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2012-02-19 18:23 +0100
                    Re: Self-taught C blp@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff) - 2012-02-09 14:38 -0800
                  Re: Self-taught C jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-02-09 21:52 +0000
                    Re: Self-taught C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-09 16:08 -0600
                Re: Self-taught C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-09 16:16 -0600
                  Re: Self-taught C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-02-10 00:39 +0000
                    Re: Self-taught C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 10:50 -0600
                      Re: Self-taught C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-02-10 22:21 +0000
                Re: Self-taught C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:45 +0000
                  Re: Self-taught C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-02-09 16:32 -0800
                    Re: Self-taught C Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 11:24 +0000
                    Re: Self-taught C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-21 23:19 +0200
                      Re: Self-taught C Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-02-22 08:54 +0100
                Re: Self-taught C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-02-10 00:38 +0000
              Re: Self-taught C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 00:07 -0500
              Re: Self-taught C jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-02-10 20:34 +0000
            Re: Self-taught C Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:36 +0000
            Re: Self-taught C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2012-02-09 22:14 -0700
              Re: Self-taught C gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 03:49 -0800
          Re: Self-taught C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-13 22:12 +0000
        Re: Self-taught C Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2012-02-14 14:50 +0000
          Re: Self-taught C 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-14 09:49 -0800
    Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-05 04:32 -0800
      Re: Self-taught C gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 04:23 -0800
        Re: Self-taught C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2012-02-06 22:34 -0700
          Re: Self-taught C Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201202.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-02-07 10:26 +0100
            Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-07 02:18 -0800
              Re: Self-taught C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-07 22:28 +0000
            Re: Self-taught C JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2012-02-08 04:05 +0000
      Re: Self-taught C Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 10:31 +0000
        Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 00:51 -0800
        Re: Self-taught C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 21:26 -0500
    Re: Self-taught C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-07 07:53 -0500
    Re: Self-taught C notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2012-02-07 14:29 +0000
      Re: Self-taught C Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2012-02-07 09:26 -0800
        Re: Self-taught C notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2012-02-07 17:45 +0000
          Re: Self-taught C notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2012-02-07 18:07 +0000
            Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 00:56 -0800
    Re: Self-taught C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 00:53 -0800

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#17318

在 2012年2月14日星期二UTC+8下午10时50分03秒，Willem写道：
> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> ) It's still easy on Unix, where you have the curses library.
> )
> ) {{Unix bigot mode|
> ) Unix in general makes it easier to write programs which are small and
> ) have a simple interface, yet are useful. I haven't tried it, but I
> ) imagine the threshold is much higher on Windows.}}
> 
> Disagree.  I come from Unix, and I'm now working in a Windows shop, as a
> sort-of-admin, and I often write small programs with a simple interface to
> get stuff done.
> 
> I mainly use Perl and C#, although must 'real' .NET programmers would

That is good for a lot .net libraries installed under
the Windows OS. 

The cross-platform requirement might not be necessary
for manny Windows AP. programmers.  

> probably qualify my code as 'dirty hacks', as it contains one file, with
> one class, and only 'static' functions.
> 
> So, basically, I write C# like it's ordinary C but with all those extra
> neato library functions (LINQ ftw!)
> 
> 
> SaSW, Willem
> -- 
> Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
>             made in the above text. For all I know I might be
>             drugged or something..
>             No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
> #EOT

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#16802

On Feb 3, 5:24 pm, Sleepy Duke <josh.izz...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What are the best methods you all have found for teaching yourselves how to code proficiently in C?

write lots of code.

the best way I found was already knowing anothe couple of programming
languages, but this probably doesn't help...

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#16811

On Feb 5, 12:32 pm, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 3, 5:24 pm, Sleepy Duke <josh.izz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What are the best methods you all have found for teaching yourselves how to code proficiently in C?
>
> write lots of code.

That.

It'll help to have a project or something that you want to accomplish,
and work htowards that goal.

Set your compiler to its most picky settings, and understand every
single diagnostic message it gives you. And them eliminate them,
figuring out what misunderstanding led to them occuring in the first
place.

Then run the code under valgrind or some similar bounds/leak checker
and understand all its diagnostics too.

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#16817

gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> writes:

> On Feb 5, 12:32 pm, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Feb 3, 5:24 pm, Sleepy Duke <josh.izz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > What are the best methods you all have found for teaching yourselves how to code proficiently in C?
>>
>> write lots of code.
>
> That.
>
> It'll help to have a project or something that you want to accomplish,
> and work htowards that goal.

I think that's the most important single advice that can be given.

> Set your compiler to its most picky settings, and understand every
> single diagnostic message it gives you. And them eliminate them,
> figuring out what misunderstanding led to them occuring in the first
> place.
>
> Then run the code under valgrind or some similar bounds/leak checker
> and understand all its diagnostics too.

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#16829

> > It'll help to have a project or something that you want to accomplish,
> > and work htowards that goal.
> 
> I think that's the most important single advice that can be given.

Agreed. But working at a support role where you have to read lots of code
and fix it is even better than that and along with it, you'll have it all.

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#16830

On Feb 7, 9:26 am, Fritz Wuehler
<fr...@spamexpire-201202.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote:
> > > It'll help to have a project or something that you want to accomplish,
> > > and work htowards that goal.
>
> > I think that's the most important single advice that can be given.
>
> Agreed. But working at a support role where you have to read lots of code
> and fix it is even better than that and along with it, you'll have it all.

dunno, being a maintenance programmer on a nasty pile of code can be a
dispiriting experience. I wouldn't suggest i was necessarily a good
way to learn.

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#16875

On Tue, 2012-02-07, Nick Keighley wrote:
> On Feb 7, 9:26 am, Fritz Wuehler
> <fr...@spamexpire-201202.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote:
>> > > It'll help to have a project or something that you want to accomplish,
>> > > and work htowards that goal.
>>
>> > I think that's the most important single advice that can be given.
>>
>> Agreed. But working at a support role where you have to read lots of code
>> and fix it is even better than that and along with it, you'll have it all.
>
> dunno, being a maintenance programmer on a nasty pile of code can be a
> dispiriting experience. I wouldn't suggest i was necessarily a good
> way to learn.

Still, IMO you need to work with (within) bad code to really learn C.
It teaches you how easy it is to end up in a mess, a few ways to get
there, and debugging/refactoring techniques.

And writing your own, fresh code can feel like a luxury afterwards ;-)

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#16907

> Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201202.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote:
>> Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu>
>> > gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Sleepy Duke <josh.izz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > What are the best methods you all have found for
>> >> > teaching yourselves how to code proficiently in C?
>> >>
>> >> write lots of code.
>> >
>> > It'll help to have a project or something that you want
>> > to accomplish, and work towards that goal.
>> 
>> I think that's the most important single advice that can be given.
> 
> Agreed.

Ditto. That's the ticket. But conjuring up the functional specs
for an interesting, doable (in this case easily doable) project
is a skill in itself, in fact a job title in itself. Most entry
level books I've seen sacrifice the "interesting" in favor of
the "easily doable", which I guess is a necessary tradeoff.
Maybe there's some site with a collection of little learning
projects that's both, though I don't know of one. That would
be a nice idea in itself, probably largely language agnostic
(i.e., not C specific).

> But working at a support role where you have to read lots of code
> and fix it is even better than that and along with it,
> you'll have it all.

That's a different mindset and a somewhat different skill.
Some people can do one and not the other: some just can't 
seem to get going with nothing but a blank sheet of paper,
while others can't seem to dive into the middle of a pile
of existing code. Programmers need both skills in spades,
but you want to learn (as the op does) with writing your
own code, expressing your own thinking in your own style.
So, like "gwowen" first suggested, get yourself a project.
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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#16924

Nick Keighley wrote:

> write lots of code.
> 
> the best way I found was already knowing anothe couple of programming
> languages, but this probably doesn't help...

I would also add participating in public forums dedicated to the programming 
language, such as comp.lang.c, and also forums dedicated to specific 
platforms, such as comp.unix.programmer.  Getting our hands dirty may be the 
best learning experience that we can have, but being exposed to the 
experiences that others had/are having will also contributes greatly to our 
own progress.  

Plus, when we stumble on a problem we might benefit from having a community 
willing to help us out on it.  Conversely, we may help others with their 
problems, and in the process learn a bit more from it.

In short, we may do all our learning alone, but being a part of a community 
dedicated to a specific subject also helps a lot.


Rui Maciel

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#16971

On Feb 8, 10:31 am, Rui Maciel <rui.mac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nick Keighley wrote:

[best way to learn C- beginner programmer]

> > write lots of code.
>
> > the best way I found was already knowing anothe couple of programming
> > languages, but this probably doesn't help...
>
> I would also add participating in public forums dedicated to the
> programming language, such as comp.lang.c, and also forums dedicated to > specific platforms, such as comp.unix.programmer.  Getting our hands
> dirty may be the best learning experience that we can have, but being
> exposed to the experiences that others had/are having will also
> contributes greatly to our own progress.

good point. by this time I know what a program should look like so
even in a new language. I want my programs to work (lots of tests) and
exhibit a certain... spareness- no repeated code, no wodges of boiler
plate, no pages of woffle, each component should do one thing well.
Oh, and it should be idiomatic as well (you can write FORTRAN in any
language).

> Plus, when we stumble on a problem we might benefit from having a
> community willing to help us out on it.  Conversely, we may help others > with their problems, and in the process learn a bit more from it.
>
> In short, we may do all our learning alone, but being a part of a
> community dedicated to a specific subject also helps a lot.

yes, this group, C++, scheme, Microsoft, Unix have all helped me lots.
Oddly I've never really used a perl newgroups. Which might explain my
perl!

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#17023

On 2/8/2012 05:31, Rui Maciel wrote:
>
> Plus, when we stumble on a problem we might benefit from having a community
> willing to help us out on it.  Conversely, we may help others with their
> problems, and in the process learn a bit more from it.
>

Some folks say you only really know something if you can teach it to 
someone else.  Helping others in a community forum seems like a useful 
way to get to know something, then. :)

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#16834

On 02/03/2012 12:24 PM, Sleepy Duke wrote:
> What are the best methods you all have found for teaching yourselves how to code proficiently in C?

1. Study "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan & Ritchie. However,
I've heard that this is not a good introductory book for someone with no
previous experience in programming. I wouldn't have noticed if that were
the case -  C was my fourth programming language, after FORTRAN I (sic),
Basic, and APL.

2. Write lots of code while trying to achieve very specific goals. If
you don't have a specific goal you're trying to achieve with the code,
you won't learn as much while writing it.
-- 
James Kuyper

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#16837

On 2012-02-03, Sleepy Duke <josh.izzard@gmail.com> wrote:

> What are the best methods you all have found for teaching yourselves
> how to code proficiently in C?


There are good beginning tutorials online.  Here's a few:
http://how-to.linuxcareer.com/c-development-on-linux-introduction
http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/c-tutorial.html
http://www.codingunit.com/the-history-of-the-c-language

Chew on these till you milk them dry, then look for some books.  Read
the reviews on Amazon.  If you have a B&N or good library, go there
and read 'em before buying.  I once bought a C book that was highly
recommended and was not happy with it.

As another poster recommended, learn with a goal in mind.  Excellent
advice.  I've dabbled unsuccessfully in coding for yrs and never
really learned anything cuz I never had a reason.  I've recently
discovered arduino hobby electronics, a hands-on fun end to my means.
It can be done in C.  I think this stuff is a hoot and it got me back
into learning programming.  Some examples:

http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/usa/

http://www.adafruit.com/products/170

http://www.adafruit.com/products/332 (watch the belt video)

http://tinyurl.com/7p886h5

This is all stuff that can be done with Arduino electronics and C
coding.  I'll never get to the point of those amazing formation flying
q-copters, but it fires one's imagination and provides inspiration.

Oh! .....also learn code debugging as you go.  Nothing is more
discouraging than debugging bad code, so learn how early.     

notbob  --geezer learning C way too late, but still trying ;)

-- 
Fight internet CENSORSHIP - Fight SOPA-PIPA
Contact your congressman and/or representative, now!
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
vi --the heart of evil!

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#16848

On 7 Feb 2012 14:29:21 GMT, notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

>On 2012-02-03, Sleepy Duke <josh.izzard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What are the best methods you all have found for teaching yourselves
>> how to code proficiently in C?
>
>
>There are good beginning tutorials online.  Here's a few:
>http://how-to.linuxcareer.com/c-development-on-linux-introduction

This one has some really confusing examples (e.g., the discussion
regarding the ++ operator).  

The discussion of pointers has major errors such as:

   Next, we dereference ptoi, meaning we say "stop pointing to x and
start pointing to y".

and
   
   when working with arrays, you don't have to use pointers, but it's
nice to do so, because operations will be faster, 

and

   Another important aspect is that any character array in C ends with
the null character

and it gets worse.

-- 
Remove del for email

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#16852

On 2012-02-07, Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> wrote:

> The discussion of pointers has major errors such as:

That's why I provided several sites.  I've taken formal college C
programming classes twice and have yet to encounter a single learning
method that isn't flawed, somehow.  If not blatant mistakes, then
outright omissions, like I will somehow absorb the correct approach
and/or code syntax by magic.  One teacher used both C and C++ code as
if they were the same.  Similar experiences with 2 books I've bought.
I've discovered having several sources for the same info usually
provides the answer, if only by consensus.  ;)

nb

-- 
Fight internet CENSORSHIP - Fight SOPA-PIPA
Contact your congressman and/or representative, now!
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
vi --the heart of evil!

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#16854

On 2012-02-07, Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

>   Some omissions are necessary in teaching, mistakes are not.

.....and of course, in the interest of "teaching", you are going to
omit what those "necessary" omissions might be and why.

Balderdash!

nb

-- 
Fight internet CENSORSHIP - Fight SOPA-PIPA
Contact your congressman and/or representative, now!
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
vi --the heart of evil!

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#16970

On Feb 7, 6:07 pm, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:
> On 2012-02-07, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> >   Some omissions are necessary in teaching, mistakes are not.
>
> .....and of course, in the interest of "teaching", you are going to
> omit what those "necessary" omissions might be and why.
>
> Balderdash!

you shouldn't teach things that are actually wrong. It takes ages
(sometimes never) for people to shake off things like "pointers are
faster than arrays"

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#16967

On Feb 7, 2:05 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> Sleepy Duke <josh.izz...@gmail.com> writes:
> >What are the best methods you all have found for teaching
> >yourselves how to code proficiently in C?
>
>   Reading C books (including the C specification), Reading
>   books on software engineering (not C specific),

reading about the design of other stuff. I'm in a minority here I
know...

>   Reading and
>   porting code (e.g., C code from other systems to the Amiga
>   or from other languages to C), writing C code, talking with
>   friends about C, Reading the C source code of a computer
>   game while playing it to find the tricks (how to play and
>   win), and giving C classes (my next C class starts this
>   thursday [the day after tomorrow] in Berlin; it's a real
>   C class [not a C++ class]).
>

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