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Re: software disenchantment

From BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: software disenchantment
Date 2018-10-10 14:22 -0500
Organization albasani.net
Message-ID <ppljgb$8jc$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <0vkvD.14918$Nt6.14398@fx19.am4> <7FkvD.14919$Nt6.2825@fx19.am4> <968306fe-f05b-45cb-93a4-3081ec0d2fd0@googlegroups.com> <ppldrc$n44$1@news.albasani.net> <5c209401-54a3-410d-85fd-a5bc50ba93ca@googlegroups.com>

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On 10/10/2018 1:04 PM, Thiago Adams wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 2:45:28 PM UTC-3, BGB wrote:
>> On 10/10/2018 7:49 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 11:39:11 AM UTC+1, Bart wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2018 11:28, Bart wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Then you /are/ looking at a cut-down C, but you wouldn't cut down
>>>>> essentials such as for and while loops. You would get rid of most of the
>>>>> processor
>>>>
>>>> I mean most of the preprocessor.
>>>>
>>>> Getting rid of the processor would be rather drastic.
>>>>
>>> We need to get rid of the "sticky" rule with C. The rule that means you have
>>> to pull in a system header which includes dozens of other headers, just
>>> because you need the symbol "DWORD" for some reason.
>>> How to do that isn't obvious.
>>>
>>
>> One "possible" option is partly replacing header inclusion with
>> database-like metadata, but pulling this off effectively without
>> breaking things in the language is harder.
> 
> I like the #ifdef mechanism.
> 
> In C++ modules or in your database-like how do you deal
> with different compilation settings?
> We would need many metatada for each combination of settings.
> 
> The solution is pre-compiled headers. We still have the "source"
> and the pre-compiled headers can optimize the parser.
> 

The header source would still exist in such a database, just it wouldn't 
be used directly by the "#include" mechanism when including a "header" 
which exists within this database.

In a previous attempt, I had split up ifdef's into two different groups 
(depending on the define): those which were still handled during 
preprocessing, and those which were "delayed" until a later stage in the 
compiler (effectively, they were translated to a different syntax). All 
of the relevant branches would then be compiled just with attributes 
encoding which defines a given declaration or code-block depends on, ... 
With N/A contents being pruned away in the compiler's backend).

The problem was that this imposed constraints on how this feature could 
be used (*) and still didn't adequately address some issues I had 
initially set out to "solve" (like a single binary working with 
different C library implementations or OS APIs; at best case the C 
library would need a wrapper or for the compiler to provide its own C 
library and similar).


*: For example, everything within the block had to be "syntactically 
valid" on its own, couldn't be used for macro expansion, required types 
to exist regardless of whether or not the block was used, ...

This latter limitation was a big mess for, say, having sections of code 
specific to Win32 or the POSIX APIs, since these would depend on 
headers/types/... which may or may not exist depending on the target. 
This limitation effectively ruined its usability for one of its main 
potential use-cases (since everything for every target will need to 
exist during building, which would mean building with both Windows and 
POSIX headers at the same time; neither of which exist in forms to be 
aware of or deal gracefully with the quirks of this mechanism; as we 
don't want Win32 stuff polluting a POSIX target or the reverse).

The result would be needing effectively an abstract wrapper library over 
the OS specific APIs, basically defeating the whole point.

Not long after, I more or less gave up on this idea.



Some more narrowly defined conditions can be addressed via more 
constrained mechanisms; such as using 'unsigned long' for "size_t" which 
can automagically vary to be the correct size for using the same IL code 
for 32 and 64-bit builds (with a common C library impl), mostly because 
things like struct layout and similar aren't fixed until after the 3AC 
is generated.

Similarly, differences in the ASM modules (between 32 and 64 bit ISA 
variants or for dealing with optional ISA features; or entirely separate 
ISA's if need be) can be handled by using a secondary ".ifdef" mechanism 
which was handled much later (during ASM parsing; by which stage these 
specifics are known), vs during the normal preprocessing stage (which 
happens prior to producing the IL).

So, in a much more limited form of the original idea still exists for 
the assembler.

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Thread

software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-06 15:13 +0100
  Re: software disenchantment David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 09:54 -0700
  Re: software disenchantment Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 10:26 -0700
    Re: software disenchantment fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 04:26 -0700
  Re: software disenchantment antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2018-10-09 18:20 +0000
    Re: software disenchantment David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 11:54 -0700
      Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-09 21:22 +0100
        Re: software disenchantment David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 17:47 -0700
          Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 11:28 +0100
            Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 11:38 +0100
              Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 05:49 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-10 15:47 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 09:58 -0400
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 14:39 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 09:42 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 13:18 -0400
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 20:31 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-10 17:53 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 10:06 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 02:34 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 12:03 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 03:59 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 16:56 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 09:02 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 19:39 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-10-15 19:53 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-16 03:54 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 20:25 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 13:16 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 07:15 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 17:05 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 09:15 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 17:33 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 19:53 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 17:59 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2018-10-10 16:53 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-10 12:45 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 11:04 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-10 14:22 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 15:53 -0400
                Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 09:06 +1300
                Re: software disenchantment "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 13:21 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-10 20:27 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 22:54 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 11:01 +1300
                Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 11:05 +1300
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 23:16 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 11:22 +1300
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-10 23:28 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 11:33 +1300
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 11:37 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 11:50 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 14:10 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 05:24 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 15:12 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 13:13 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 14:44 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 16:38 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-10-11 08:09 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 17:43 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 17:36 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 18:56 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 11:54 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 20:09 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-12 13:10 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 12:57 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 14:27 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 22:03 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 15:56 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 11:30 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 23:34 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 16:24 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 01:46 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-11 18:58 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-12 08:50 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 11:12 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 12:55 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 12:10 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 13:29 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 13:06 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 14:30 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-10-12 08:53 -0400
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 15:11 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 13:55 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 15:13 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 16:10 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-12 15:22 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-12 09:12 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 13:00 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-13 12:52 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-14 08:44 +1300
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-13 21:03 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-14 10:13 +1300
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-13 23:02 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-10-13 16:47 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-14 01:05 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 18:12 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-10-14 03:05 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 20:14 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 11:25 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-12 13:17 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-12 13:16 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 14:36 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-12 14:25 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-12 15:55 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-12 15:22 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 08:26 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-12 15:51 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 13:06 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-10-15 19:30 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 12:39 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-12 08:44 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 13:01 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 20:41 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 20:02 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 22:13 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 13:03 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 11:33 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 21:04 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 20:15 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 13:17 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 13:10 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-10 19:22 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 10:58 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 02:37 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 12:06 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 04:00 -0700
                Re: software disenchantment Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2018-10-11 13:03 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 19:36 +0100
                Re: software disenchantment Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2018-10-11 15:37 -0500
                Re: software disenchantment Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 14:01 -0700
        Re: software disenchantment Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 09:02 +1300
      Re: software disenchantment Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-10-10 19:11 +0000
        Re: software disenchantment David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 13:08 -0700
          Re: software disenchantment Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-10-11 14:52 +0000
            Re: software disenchantment scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-10-11 14:58 +0000
            Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-11 17:19 +0200
              Re: software disenchantment Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-10-12 09:49 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-10-13 09:30 +0200
                Re: software disenchantment Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-10-15 08:53 +0000
                Re: software disenchantment Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-10-15 09:44 +0000
    Re: software disenchantment Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2018-10-10 13:36 +0000
  Re: software disenchantment "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-10-10 13:51 -0700
    Re: software disenchantment nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2018-10-11 01:53 +0000
    Re: software disenchantment Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-10-11 10:20 +0000
    Re: software disenchantment Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-10-11 12:53 +0100
      Re: software disenchantment "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-10-11 23:18 -0700

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