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Re: Meta-C question about header order

From Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Meta-C question about header order
Date 2014-04-14 09:49 +1200
Message-ID <br0f3eFh48mU3@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References <bqtj0hF60hpU1@mid.individual.net> <bqtvckFb55cU5@mid.individual.net> <bqvbraFhg97U4@mid.individual.net> <br0bsvFh48mU1@mid.individual.net> <20140413141503.995@kylheku.com>

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Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2014-04-13, Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
>>> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> 	in <bqtvckFb55cU5@mid.individual.net>:
>>> # Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
>>> #> hello, world\n
>>> #>
>>> #> consider a small project of 100 C source and 100 header files.
>>> #> The coding rules require that only C files include headers,
>>> #> headers are not allowed to include other headers (not sure if
>>> #> this is 100% the "IWYU - Include What You Use" paradigma).
>>> #
>>> # I agree with the other comments of the folly of this rule.  Don't do it!
>>> #
>>> # Just take a look at some of your system headers, or popular open source
>>> # library headers and consider whether you want all of the conditional
>>> # includes and other and unnecessary nonsense in all of your source files?
>>>
>>> The "unnecessary nonsense" is all the #ifndef crap in third party
>>> headers. Looking at system headers makes me cringe. It's not a role
>>> model.
>>
>> Have you ever written or had to maintain cross platform software?
>
> I have.
>
>>> There's a reason why the lint we use (Gimpel's FlexeLint) has an option
>>> to warn about repeated use of headers along arbitrary include chains. I
>>> realize beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but I suspect that all
>>> the participants of this thread calling my approach stupid haven't
>>> really given much thought to it. There are many advantages to it (see my
>>> other posts in this thread).
>>
>> Probably quite a few of us have spent many decades developing and
>> maintaining a variety of code bases.  Sure there was a time when opening
>> and reading headers took seconds rather than the micro-seconds it takes
>> today.
>
> Everything has sped up. The *proportional* time wasted scanning headers
> redundantly is still there.

The time is micro-seconds.  Unless you have millions of includes, you 
won't be able to measure it.

>> These days developer time is way more valuable than machine
>> time.  Having to update every source file that includes a header when a
>> dependency changes or a new platform type is added is pure folly.
>
> Having to update every source file prevents the folly of making these kinds of
> changes on a regular basis.

It also makes simple design improvements a major arse ache.

> When programmers make changes that affect every translation unit, maybe they
> should be "punished" by having to make an edit to the root source file of every
> translation unit.

Why?  If the change fixes a bug, or improves the design they should be 
congratulated, not punished.

> Otherwise they have this sense that "gee, I'm just changing a few lines of code
> in a just one file; there is hardly any impact".

Well there isn't if the includes are managed sensibly...

> If you have to do this a lot, your program is badly designed.

Or evolving.  Most of my requirements are very vague, the client doesn't 
really know what they want until they start seeing the code in action.

-- 
Ian Collins

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Thread

Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-12 19:37 +0000
  Re: Meta-C question about header order Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-04-12 13:51 -0700
    Re: Meta-C question about header order glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-04-13 00:11 +0000
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 11:40 +0000
      Re: Meta-C question about header order "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-04-13 13:10 +0100
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-13 06:29 -0700
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-13 14:41 +0000
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2014-04-15 10:36 -0400
  Re: Meta-C question about header order Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-04-12 16:58 -0400
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-13 03:40 +0000
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2014-04-13 16:26 +1200
        Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-13 05:02 +0000
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2014-04-13 17:21 +1200
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2014-04-15 10:59 -0400
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2014-04-15 11:02 -0400
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2014-04-15 10:59 -0400
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-15 08:26 -0700
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-15 15:56 +0000
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 11:34 +0000
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-04-13 15:04 -0400
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2014-04-15 10:52 -0400
  Re: Meta-C question about header order Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2014-04-13 11:09 +1200
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 11:47 +0000
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2014-04-14 08:54 +1200
        Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-13 21:37 +0000
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2014-04-14 09:49 +1200
        Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-14 19:17 +0000
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2014-04-15 10:24 +1200
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-16 19:58 +0000
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-04-14 21:45 -0400
  Re: Meta-C question about header order luser- -droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2014-04-12 16:48 -0700
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 11:52 +0000
  Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-13 01:04 +0000
  Re: Meta-C question about header order "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-04-13 10:15 +0100
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-13 04:06 -0700
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 12:01 +0000
      Re: Meta-C question about header order "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-04-13 13:46 +0100
        Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 13:58 +0000
  Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 11:29 +0000
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-13 08:48 -0500
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-13 14:25 +0000
        Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-13 15:02 +0000
        Re: Meta-C question about header order Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-13 21:45 -0500
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-14 01:16 -0700
            Re: Meta-C question about header order "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-04-14 10:16 +0100
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-04-14 21:33 -0400
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-14 16:25 +0000
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-14 09:47 -0700
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-14 13:29 -0500
              Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-14 19:31 +0000
                Re: Meta-C question about header order Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-04-14 20:03 -0500
                Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-15 01:04 +0000
              Re: Meta-C question about header order Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-04-14 15:15 -0700
            Re: Meta-C question about header order Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-04-14 22:01 -0400
            Re: Meta-C question about header order "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-04-15 09:51 +0100
              Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-15 06:01 -0700
                Re: Meta-C question about header order "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-04-15 14:29 +0100
                Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-15 10:38 -0700
                Re: Meta-C question about header order Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-04-15 18:27 +0000
                Re: Meta-C question about header order Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-04-15 12:45 -0700
                Re: Meta-C question about header order ralph <nt_consulting@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-15 22:02 -0500
          Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-14 17:44 +0000
  Re: Meta-C question about header order Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-04-19 01:25 -0700
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-04-19 10:30 -0400
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-23 19:47 +0000
        Re: Meta-C question about header order James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-04-23 15:53 -0400
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-06-10 09:25 -0700
    Re: Meta-C question about header order Jens Schweikhardt <usenet@schweikhardt.net> - 2014-04-23 19:27 +0000
      Re: Meta-C question about header order Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-06-10 09:40 -0700

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