Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development

From	Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development
Date	2011-12-11 13:18 +1300
Message-ID	<9kib62FhipU6@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <4837eb1a-f82a-4c69-832d-d09ac24468c7@z17g2000vbe.googlegroups.com> <9khvd7FhipU4@mid.individual.net> <9d605d1d-a0f8-4972-9d49-8d208bf102a2@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <9ki5b1FhipU5@mid.individual.net> <c1ef3684-b5cc-4b31-b591-8669b72b41ae@c13g2000vbh.googlegroups.com>

Show all headers | View raw

On 12/11/11 01:01 PM, James Harris wrote:
> On Dec 10, 10:38 pm, Ian Collins<ian-n...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/11/11 11:26 AM, James Harris wrote:
>
>> You would still be well advised to follow
>> existing practice for your ABI.  If nothing else, that will simplify
>> writing a gcc port for your platform.
>
> I understand the point. However, from what I have done so far I can
> see it would be easy to miss useful innovations by being influenced by
> existing systems. The whole point of writing a new OS is to do things
> in a new way. So my intention is as far as possible to make a clean
> design and then to provide interfacing as needed.

Consider this: why would the designers of an OS ABI choose an 
inefficient calling convention?

> If I can wax lyrical for a moment: How often does a programmer get to
> write something that is totally independent of existing systems?
> Almost never. We work with specific operating systems such as Unix,
> Windows, DOS etc. We work with specific libraries such as sockets and
> various GUIs and we work with specific file formats such as Elf, jpeg
> etc. And we work with specific concepts such as files and data
> streams. *All* of these are up for grabs when writing an OS.

They are also frequently up for grabs in embedded systems, where most C 
programmers operate these days.

>>> I don't understand but am interested in the idea. What has changed to
>>> make this no longer the case?
>>
>> Optimisation technology.
>
> I don't see this. I was talking about how C operations are those you
> will find on a CPU's ALU: arithmetic, shifts, bitwise operations; and
> how C's data types map to typical CPU data types: signed and unsigned
> integers and bitfields of different widths, floats of differing types.
> Surely these are not dependent on optimisation.

You could say the same for any programming language.  C does allow you 
to specify exact with types, but they are provided to enable C to 
interface with low level entities.  Most C programs won't use them.

How an instance of a type is manipulated is very much dependent on 
optimisation.  A declared variable may not even exist in optimised code. 
  The machine instructions emitted by an optimising compiler often bear 
little resemblance to the code written by the programmer. Functions get 
inlined, instructions get reordered and so on.

-- 
Ian Collins

Thread

Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-12 01:22 -0800
  Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-12 10:36 +0100
    Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-12 02:09 -0800
      Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-12 11:37 +0100
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-12 08:02 -0800
          Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-13 10:24 +1100
          Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-13 10:29 +0100
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-12 15:06 -0700
    Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "ankh" <star67@venus.gov> - 2011-11-12 22:43 -0600
      Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-14 21:57 +0100
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-15 10:16 +1300
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "Jo" <none@none.none> - 2011-11-19 22:59 -0600
          Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-20 12:58 +0000
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201111.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-11-21 07:30 +0100
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "Jo" <none@none.none> - 2011-11-21 01:01 -0600
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "Jo" <none@none.none> - 2011-11-21 00:51 -0600
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Brian <nospam@nospam.com> - 2011-11-22 16:47 +0000
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-22 12:10 -0500
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-22 20:24 +0100
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Richard Sanders <lnr729@gmail.com> - 2011-11-22 10:58 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-24 00:27 -0800
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-22 20:13 +0100
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-23 23:13 +0100
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Friedrich Dominicus <just-for-news-frido@q-software-solutions.de> - 2011-11-23 06:28 +0100
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-11-23 02:45 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-11-23 10:57 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-11-24 01:31 -0800
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-23 10:58 +0000
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-24 00:26 -0800
    Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-14 01:33 -0800
      Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-11-14 17:13 +0000
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-11-14 14:36 -0500
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-15 00:56 -0800
  Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-11-13 02:59 +0000
    Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-11-12 22:13 -0500
      Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "ankh" <star67@venus.gov> - 2011-11-13 00:03 -0600
      Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-14 21:55 +0100
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-15 00:56 -0800
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2011-11-15 07:05 -0800
          Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-15 14:42 -0800
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-16 00:17 +0100
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2011-11-15 17:50 -0800
    Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-12 20:38 -0700
      Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-13 00:00 -0800
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-13 01:23 -0700
        Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-11-13 09:10 +0000
          Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-13 10:33 +0100
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-13 23:03 +1300
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-11-13 11:17 +0100
          Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-10 11:29 -0800
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-11 09:57 +1300
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-10 14:26 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-11 11:38 +1300
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-10 16:01 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-11 13:18 +1300
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-10 22:50 -0600
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:25 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-11 03:45 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-12 12:06 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-12 20:02 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development John Tsiombikas <nuclear@member.fsf.org> - 2011-12-13 06:28 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-13 00:32 -0600
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-12-13 10:57 +0100
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-10 23:20 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-12 12:38 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-12 20:15 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-12 13:51 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-12 22:32 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development John Tsiombikas <nuclear@member.fsf.org> - 2011-12-13 06:40 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-13 09:19 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-17 00:52 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-14 13:00 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-14 21:53 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-15 11:18 +1300
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-15 11:16 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-15 19:35 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-15 13:03 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-16 03:55 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-16 19:50 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-12 16:54 -0600
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-13 12:03 +1300
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-12 17:19 -0600
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-15 11:52 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-12-12 18:34 -0500
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-12-13 09:43 +0100
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-15 11:33 -0800
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-10 21:13 +0000
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-10 15:10 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-10 23:31 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-12-11 01:57 +0100
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:46 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-12-12 15:23 -0500
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-12-12 20:02 +0000
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-12 14:00 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-12-12 17:24 -0500
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-12 17:06 -0600
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-12-12 18:16 -0500
            Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-12-11 09:03 -0500
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-11 08:57 -0800
              Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-12 12:11 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-12-12 14:25 -0800
                Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-14 13:44 -0800
  Re: Which lean C compiler for 32-bit OS development "ankh" <star67@venus.gov> - 2011-11-12 22:42 -0600

csiph-web