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| From | Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: C programming in 2011 |
| References | (6 earlier) <f0682128-aff5-4ac0-a2e2-5bd7ffd3dac0@v10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> <is2q53$qu2$1@dont-email.me> <9879610a-8794-4ed7-8553-5c37716fc662@b1g2000yql.googlegroups.com> <jfgru69n2em3d0r1pio91cp6snlevbl4j1@4ax.com> <2bc1fa35-aa10-4e51-88ba-d66187f992a8@r20g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> |
| Date | 2011-06-09 14:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <86y61ak6uq.fsf@zipcon.net> (permalink) |
| Organization | The Zip Connection (zipcon.net) |
"Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> writes: > On Jun 7, 8:18 am, David Thompson <dave.thomps...@verizon.net> wrote: >> On Tue, 31 May 2011 07:50:06 -0700 (PDT), "Kleuskes & Moos" >> >> <kleu...@xs4all.nl> wrote: >> > On May 31, 3:23 pm, James Kuyper <jameskuy...@verizon.net> wrote: >> >> <snip: UINT_MAX==INT_MAX ?>> > An obvious possibility is a platform >> with no hardware support for >> > > unsigned integers - depending upon the precise details of it's >> > > instruction set, it could be easiest to implement unsigned ints as >> > > signed ints with a range restricted to non-negative values. However, I >> > > claim no familiarity with any such system. >> >> PDP-10 was (at least) one with integers only signed: 36bit word, 2sC >> sign+35; for a few double operations, sign+70=sign+35+ignored+35. But PDP-10 addresses were 18 bits (extended to 23 bits later), so you never saw a negative address. Note that those address 36-bit words, not bytes. > Which made it big in the '60, right along the Burroughs machine and > borrowed it's architecture from the PDP-6, dating back to 1963... 36- > bits appear to have been the 'in'-thing back in those days. 36 bits made a lot of sense, especially for floats. 32-bit floats don't have enough precision for a lot of work. With the PDP-11, Vax, etc., lots of scientific users had to go to double precision at a substantial cost in speed when the 36-bit floats would have been enough. > The PDP-11, however, dropped all that crazy stuff and was a lot easier > to program, being byte-adressable and all. Byte addressing is generally wasteful. Address space is precious and you don't actually need to address bytes in isolation from each other very often. Character data is usually less than 8 bits wide. Sixbit is fine in situations where you don't need control characters or need to distinguish upper and lower case. ASCII is seven bits. When space is precious, you don't use 8 bits on data that can be represented in 7. On a machine with a good instruction set like the PDP-10, there's no speed penalty for choosing 7 bits instead of 8 to represent characters. On the PDP-11, on the other hand, programmers use 8 bit characters all the time, wasting 1/8 of their machine's memory, just because of the hassle and speed penalty for doing anything else. Lots of byte-addressed machines are quite a bit slower accessing data that isn't in word alignment. Generally speaking it's a mistake for a programming language to act as if there's nothing wrong with unaligned data when it actually involves a substantial penalty. > And that's the machine that > 'C' was developed on originally. So, all in all, it's on par with the > Burroughs machine, in that it would probably not support 'C' at all. I don't know about Burroughs, but there are a couple of C implementations on the PDP-10. Because of C's peculiar requirement that the word size must be a multiple of the char size, the implementers chose a 9-bit char (even more wasteful than the PDP-11!). C didn't become popular, partly because of the unfortunate size of char, partly because due to that it's hard to port between other Cs and PDP-10 C, partly because C was becoming popular at the same time the PDP-10 was being phased out, and partly because PDP-10 assembly language is a very nice language. -- Patrick
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C programming in 2011 Duncan Bayne <dhgbayne@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 20:27 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 22:33 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 Duncan Bayne <dhgbayne@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 20:58 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Duncan Bayne <dhgbayne@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 21:06 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 23:24 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-26 07:51 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-05-26 11:15 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-26 06:53 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-27 09:12 +1200
Re: C programming in 2011 Nizumzen <chicken@mcnuggets.com> - 2011-05-29 00:39 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2011-06-01 17:38 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Nizumzen <chicken@mcnuggets.com> - 2011-06-01 22:34 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-01 21:42 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Nizumzen <chicken@mcnuggets.com> - 2011-06-02 00:33 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Duncan Bayne <dhgbayne@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 03:41 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-05-28 00:46 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 14:09 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-26 15:07 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-27 07:42 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-27 07:30 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-05-29 01:15 +0300
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-28 22:24 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-28 16:08 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-28 23:47 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-28 16:58 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-28 18:49 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org> - 2011-05-29 11:13 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Jorge <jorge@jorgechamorro.com> - 2011-06-04 08:05 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-04 16:20 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Nizumzen <chicken@mcnuggets.com> - 2011-05-29 14:35 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-29 12:49 -0700
OT: Brackets, parentheses, etc. (Was: C programming in 2011) Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 16:13 -0500
Re: OT: Brackets, parentheses, etc. (Was: C programming in 2011) "Morris Keesan" <mkeesan@post.harvard.edu> - 2011-05-30 12:17 -0400
Re: OT: Brackets, parentheses, etc. (Was: C programming in 2011) Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-30 12:52 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 Nizumzen <chicken@mcnuggets.com> - 2011-05-29 23:58 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-05-30 14:42 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Nizumzen <chicken@mcnuggets.com> - 2011-05-30 17:40 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2011-05-30 22:38 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 "J. J. Farrell" <jjf@bcs.org.uk> - 2011-05-30 00:38 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-05-30 11:14 +0300
Re: C programming in 2011 Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-05-29 06:55 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-28 18:47 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-05-30 15:02 +0300
Re: C programming in 2011 Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-05-30 11:01 +0300
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-30 08:51 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-05-31 01:54 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-31 12:00 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-31 16:44 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 11:43 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-05-26 11:13 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Francois Grieu <fgrieu@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 16:04 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Branimir Maksimovic <bmaxa@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-26 16:21 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Francois Grieu <fgrieu@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 17:23 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Branimir Maksimovic <bmaxa@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-26 19:15 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-05-26 17:29 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Branimir Maksimovic <bmaxa@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-26 20:10 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org> - 2011-05-26 17:35 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-05-26 17:53 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-05-26 11:13 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-26 21:57 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-31 01:13 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Branimir Maksimovic <bmaxa@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-26 20:06 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Ralf Damaschke <rwspam@gmx.de> - 2011-05-26 17:57 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-26 11:31 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Ralf Damaschke <rwspam@gmx.de> - 2011-05-26 20:43 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-26 14:53 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-31 01:03 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-31 01:59 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-31 02:55 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-31 06:36 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-31 05:57 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-31 09:23 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-31 07:50 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 11:41 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 01:46 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2011-06-01 10:07 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 04:12 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 07:46 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-01 17:53 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-06-01 16:28 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 23:28 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Uno <Uno@example.invalid> - 2011-06-09 21:24 -0600
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 10:04 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 08:21 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 09:37 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 12:55 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 11:52 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "J. J. Farrell" <jjf@bcs.org.uk> - 2011-06-02 00:00 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 23:19 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 12:53 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 11:55 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-01 08:41 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2011-06-01 17:12 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-01 09:28 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-01 08:38 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-02 01:00 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-06-02 09:13 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-02 02:52 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-06-02 11:41 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-02 05:53 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-02 06:49 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-06-02 14:18 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-02 21:02 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-02 23:55 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-03 08:37 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-03 06:49 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-03 11:52 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-03 11:11 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-03 18:23 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-03 18:59 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-03 19:48 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-03 15:02 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-03 12:19 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-03 13:40 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-03 15:11 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-03 15:24 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-03 15:34 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-03 17:10 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-03 17:34 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-04 09:47 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-02 10:02 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-02 12:17 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-02 08:48 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-02 10:35 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 gordonb.jpem8@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-06-05 23:32 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-06 00:12 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 gordonb.5k8u2@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-06-06 05:18 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-06 08:16 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-03 18:06 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 gordonb.zourz@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-06-05 21:25 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-06 01:14 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 gordonb.donaz@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-06-06 04:36 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-06 09:02 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 gordonb.k6ruq@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-06-06 18:36 -0500
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-07 10:14 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 "J. J. Farrell" <jjf@bcs.org.uk> - 2011-05-31 19:56 +0100
Re: C programming in 2011 Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2011-06-01 14:54 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-01 13:07 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-06-01 14:10 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 19:58 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-06-01 09:07 +0000
Re: C programming in 2011 James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 09:29 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2011-06-07 02:18 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-06-07 09:31 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> - 2011-06-09 14:55 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-06-01 02:35 -0700
Re: C programming in 2011 Francois Grieu <fgrieu@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 21:57 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Francois Grieu <fgrieu@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 22:03 +0200
Re: C programming in 2011 Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-26 12:27 -0400
Re: C programming in 2011 Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-05-26 18:02 +0100
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