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Re: C scope and struct definitions

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On 06/27/2012 01:33 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> writes:
>> identifiers themselves do not. Personally, I use the definition "A
>> variable is a named object.".
> 
>   That would be too vague for my taste. For example, after
> 
> int a[3];
> 
>   one might say that »a[1]« was a variable, because someone
>   called it »joe«.

That's not a name that a C program can attach to a[1]. A C++ program
could do so using a reference, but this is comp.lang.c.

Outside of a C context, (if you can figure out what "int a[3]" might
mean outside of C context), if someone wants to use the name 'joe' for
a[1], I have no objection to calling it a variable.

>   A more important point is: Your definition makes being a
>   variable a property of objects: By your definition, a
>   variable is a /special kind of object/: an object that is
>   /named/. An object is given by a region of storage and a
>   type. Now, when such an object is given, can one determine
>   whether this given object is a variable by your definition?
>   Usually not, because there is no way to find names starting
>   at the object! (At run-time most names are lost, and at
>   compile time there are no objects yet, so names and objects
>   rarely seem to exist at the same time at all.)
>   So, my definition would choose a wording more like
>   »A variable is a /pair of a name and an object/, where
>   the name refers to the object[ and ...]«.
> 
>   However, the point remains: Variable are usually chosen
>   to talk about source code, even when the source code is
>   only written on paper and never ever executed at all, it
>   still can have variables. So why include those objects
>   in the definition of a variable at all, when they never
>   might come into existence?

I've never used the term "variable" to refer to anything other than the
object that might or might not come into existence, when the program is
running. When I want to refer to the identifier, rather than the object
it identifies, I'll use a phrase like "the variable's name"; which would
be a meaningless phrase if "variable" referred to the identifier, rather
than to the object it identifies.

>   Also, I am not sure whether to use »name« or »identifier«
>   above.
> 
>   Can an object have several names in C?
> 
> union u0
> { int a;
>   int b; };
> 
>   comes to my mind.

That's a good question.

>   How many variables are declared with
> 
> union u0 u;
> 
>   ? for example, 1, 2 or 3?
> 
>   When a variable is a »named object« an /object/ with several
>   names counts as /one/ variable. When a variable is /pair/ of
>   a name and an object, each name counts as /one/ variable in
>   this case.
> 
>   Do union member names count at all as variable names?

Yes. The only question is how many different variables there are. When
people are discussing how a term should be defined. I find it helpful to
focus on what you want to say, using the term. Can you think of
something you would want to say about a variable, that would be harder
(or easier) to say if a and b were different variables, than it would be
if they were considered a single variable?

I looked to the standard for some examples of how it uses the term. I
found one which would require a rewrite if 'a' and 'b' were considered
different variables: "A floating-point status flag is a system variable
..." (7.6p1). If the status flag were a member of a union, and if
different members of the same union with the same type were considered
different variables, then "a" would have to be changed to "one or more",
to cover the possibility that the flag was a union member.
Similarly, 7.17.2.1 p2: "Concurrent access to the variable being
initialized ..."; if it were a member of a union, and those members were
considered distinct variables, all three variables would be initialized
at the same time, so that would need re-wording too.

I stopped looking at that point, there may be more examples, in either
direction.

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Thread

C scope and struct definitions Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-06-22 13:30 -0400
  Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-22 14:02 -0400
    Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-22 22:40 +0000
      Re: C scope and struct definitions Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2012-06-22 15:47 -0700
      Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-22 20:32 -0400
        Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-23 22:06 +0000
          Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-23 16:18 -0700
            Re: C scope and struct definitions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-06-25 10:19 -0400
              Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-25 11:51 -0700
          Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-23 19:54 -0400
            Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-24 00:56 +0000
              Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-23 21:48 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-24 06:03 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-06-25 00:05 -0700
              Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-23 19:25 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-24 05:40 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-06-24 10:47 +0200
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-24 11:00 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-25 03:53 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-25 01:14 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-24 22:38 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-06-25 11:03 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-26 20:08 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-06-26 23:21 +0200
                Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-26 21:47 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-26 18:05 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-26 16:45 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-06-27 08:26 +0200
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-27 00:01 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-06-27 06:57 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-06-27 15:00 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-27 14:48 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-27 16:14 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-29 09:36 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-27 16:27 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-27 12:03 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-27 12:11 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-27 15:53 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-26 17:59 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-26 22:18 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-26 18:33 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-26 17:22 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-27 00:03 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-06-27 14:13 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-27 12:15 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-29 09:43 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-29 11:59 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-01 18:32 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-06-27 20:59 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-06-28 16:42 -0400
            Re: C scope and struct definitions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-06-23 20:57 -0400
              Re: C scope and struct definitions Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-23 22:11 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-06-23 22:51 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2012-06-25 17:31 +0000
                Re: C scope and struct definitions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-06-25 14:46 -0400
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-25 14:43 -0700
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-06-26 13:44 +0200
                Re: C scope and struct definitions Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-23 20:07 -0700
              Re: C scope and struct definitions Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-06-24 10:56 +0200
                Re: C scope and struct definitions James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-06-24 08:29 -0400
              Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-24 10:26 -0700
          Re: C scope and struct definitions Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-06-25 10:50 -0400
      Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-24 09:23 -0700
        Re: C scope and struct definitions Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-06-25 11:17 -0400
          Re: C scope and struct definitions Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-25 14:22 -0700
  Re: C scope and struct definitions Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-06-25 11:11 -0400

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