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Groups > comp.lang.c > #400913

Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.

From cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.
Date 2026-08-07 11:47 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <1154gkf$mnc$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References <114nji9$li5u$1@news.xmission.com> <1150hng$3dds0$1@kst.eternal-september.org> <11533gk$bt5$1@reader1.panix.com> <1153c2h$9tat$1@kst.eternal-september.org>

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In article <1153c2h$9tat$1@kst.eternal-september.org>,
Keith Thompson  <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>> In article <1150hng$3dds0$1@kst.eternal-september.org>,
>> Keith Thompson  <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>[snip]
>>>IMHO it would be cleaner to require plain char to be unsigned,
>>>but I don't see that happening.
>>
>> The cleanest thing would be to define `char` to be,
>> specifically, a type designated to hold only character data,
>> with a corresponding `int` type with the usual signed and
>> unsigned variants, and explicit conversion functions to
>> translate between `char` and the underlying representation.
>
>Other than requiring explicit conversions, that's pretty much what we
>have now.  signed char and unsigned char are the two standard integer
>types, probably narrower than signed short and unsigned short.

It is close, indeed, though I would argue that the implicit
conversions can cause some minor grief.  The need to cast
arguments to `is*` feels superfluous.  In the big scheme of
things it's not a huge deal, of course, but still ugly.

>char is a special case, "designated to hold only character data",
>though that designation is not enforced.

I'm not even sure that was the original intent.  Sure, `char`
was (and is) useful for holding character data, but I believe it
was always intended as the byte integer type; it was probably
just _most often_ used for representing character data.  I think
they didn't want to make it separate from other integer types
because they felt it was "good enough" and didn't want to add
another reserved word to the language (and what would it be?).

This business with signed vs unsigned `char` is just historical
baggage because for the first decade or so of C's existence,
they didn't have to care.

>If it were practical, I'd like to see the "char" type either
>unsigned, or for its signedness to be irrelevant (i.e., not an
>integer type).

Agreed.  It shouldn't be an integer type.

>(Ada, for example, defines Character as an enumeration type, and
>allows character constants as enumeration constants.)

Even Pascal's `Char` type is distinct from the usual integer
types, with `chr` and `ord` operators to convert to and from.

Not to beat the Rust drum again, but I think they came up with
a fairly nice abstraction: an instance of the `char` type is a
multibyte datum designed specifically to hold character data
(UNICODE code points, in particular).  It is illegal to put
anything else into a `char`.  Its representation is known to be
some primitive integer compatible with `u32`, so it is cheap to
copy, pass as an argument to a function, put in a `struct` and
so on, but conversion to and from other types is explicit.

I wouldn't have expected anyone to do that on a PDP-11/20 in
1972, though.

	- Dan C.

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Default signedness of 'plain' char. gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-08-02 14:17 +0000
  Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-03 02:45 +0800
    Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-08-03 01:47 +0000
      Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-03 23:14 +0800
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-08-03 17:04 +0100
          The Spanish Inquisition (was: Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-04 00:23 +0800
            Re: The Spanish Inquisition bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-08-03 18:03 +0100
              Re: The Spanish Inquisition Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-04 01:26 +0800
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2026-08-04 13:13 +0100
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 07:30 +0000
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 18:18 +0800
              Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-08-05 17:20 +0100
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 21:57 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 15:29 -0700
  Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-03 09:56 +0200
    Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-03 13:56 -0500
  Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-08-03 13:48 +0000
  Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-03 14:47 +0000
  Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-08-03 14:47 +0000
    Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-08-03 15:04 +0000
      Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-03 16:58 -0700
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-08-04 15:10 +0000
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-04 15:50 +0000
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 03:00 +0000
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-05 09:01 +0200
      Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-08-04 18:10 +0000
        Compilers targetting the C64 (was: Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 03:17 +0800
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 16:25 -0500
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 02:57 +0000
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 00:19 -0500
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 18:57 +0800
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-05 14:33 +0000
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-05 22:38 +0000
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 21:36 -0700
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-08-06 00:21 +0000
  Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-03 13:20 -0700
    Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-08-03 22:06 +0100
      Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-03 14:25 -0700
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-03 18:38 -0500
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-03 19:34 -0700
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 04:40 -0500
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 07:22 +0000
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 04:02 -0500
              Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-05 12:35 +0200
              Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 18:49 +0800
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 12:39 -0700
                Dear Chris (was: Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-06 20:15 +0800
                Re: Dear Chris bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-08-06 15:05 +0100
                Re: Dear Chris Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-06 23:16 +0800
                Re: Dear Chris David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-06 20:10 +0200
              Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 21:54 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 04:49 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-07 00:10 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-07 09:56 +0200
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-08-05 13:33 -0400
              Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 21:50 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-06 10:34 +0200
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 15:19 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-09 20:33 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 18:04 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-10 02:45 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 02:24 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 18:03 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-10 08:58 +0200
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 15:17 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 15:19 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 17:31 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-10 23:48 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-08-10 20:03 -0400
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 20:44 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-08-11 11:17 -0400
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 14:54 -0500
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-12 03:36 +0000
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 01:24 -0500
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-12 07:47 +0000
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 12:52 -0700
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 12:56 -0700
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-13 02:16 +0000
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 21:04 -0700
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 23:07 -0500
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-13 05:00 +0000
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 04:37 -0500
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 14:36 -0700
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 23:07 -0500
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-13 23:44 +0000
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 18:50 -0700
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-14 02:41 +0000
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 23:47 -0500
                Re: Quaternions (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-14 04:59 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 13:47 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 23:50 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-14 05:59 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 03:16 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-14 08:32 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 12:36 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-15 03:16 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 22:38 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-16 00:08 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 12:17 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-11 13:46 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 13:49 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-11 08:58 +0200
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 04:03 -0500
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 20:29 -0400
                Re: Vectors! Quaternions! (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-11 03:58 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-11 09:06 +0200
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 21:15 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-11 04:52 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 06:45 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 14:01 -0700
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 12:36 -0700
    Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 07:18 +0000
  Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 18:30 -0500
    Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 16:41 -0700
      Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-08-06 01:24 +0100
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 17:46 -0700
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-06 22:59 +0000
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 19:54 -0700
            Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-07 11:02 +0000
              Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-07 10:35 -0700
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-07 18:32 +0000
                Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-07 20:55 +0200
              Use of isascii() back in early days (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-07 20:51 +0200
                Re: Use of isascii() back in early days (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-07 13:03 -0700
                Re: Use of isascii() back in early days (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-07 13:32 -0700
                Re: Use of isascii() back in early days (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-07 21:44 +0000
                Re: Use of isascii() back in early days (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-07 23:47 +0200
                Re: Use of isascii() back in early days (was Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char.) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-07 15:26 -0700
      Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-06 22:57 +0000
        Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 18:23 -0700
          Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-07 11:47 +0000
    Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-06 14:40 +0000
      Re: Default signedness of 'plain' char. Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 15:33 -0700

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