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"Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor"

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  "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2022-07-19 23:08 -0300
    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-07-20 08:29 +0000
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2022-07-20 16:38 -0300
        Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-07-20 14:38 -0700
          Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2022-07-20 18:49 -0300
            Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2022-07-21 00:04 +0100
              Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2022-07-20 20:20 -0300
    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-07-20 09:49 +0000
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2022-07-20 16:50 -0300
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-07-20 14:38 -0700
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-07-21 01:29 +0200
        Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2022-07-21 01:06 +0100
          Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-07-21 16:01 +0200
            Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-07-21 15:01 +0000
              Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ "gdo...@gmail.com" <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2022-07-21 08:45 -0700
                Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-07-22 06:56 +0000
                  Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-07-22 10:13 +0200
              Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-07-21 18:52 +0200
                Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ "gdo...@gmail.com" <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2022-07-21 12:42 -0700
                  Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-07-21 12:45 -0700
                Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-07-22 07:03 +0000
                  Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2022-07-22 09:44 +0200
                    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-07-22 01:20 -0700
                      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-07-22 08:38 +0000
                      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2022-07-22 10:39 +0200
                        Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-07-22 02:13 -0700
                    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-07-22 09:49 +0000
                      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-07-22 05:05 -0700
                  Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-07-22 13:07 +0000
                    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-07-24 07:38 +0000
                      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-07-24 12:15 +0200
                Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-07-22 08:26 +0000
              Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-07-21 12:39 -0700
                Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-07-22 08:36 +0000
    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-07-21 13:17 -0700
    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-07-22 09:07 +0200
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-07-22 04:58 -0700
    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-07-24 19:36 +0200
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-07-24 22:23 +0200
        Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-07-25 05:44 +0000
        Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-08-11 17:38 +0000
          Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-08-11 12:06 -0700
            Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-08-12 10:54 +0000
          Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-08-11 23:09 +0300
          Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-08-12 14:52 +0200
            Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-08-12 16:25 +0000
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-07-24 13:26 -0700
    Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2022-07-25 15:02 -0300
      Re: "Carbon, a new programming language from Google, aims to be C++ successor" "gdo...@gmail.com" <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2022-07-26 20:04 -0700

Page 3 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3]

#85858

Den 2022-07-24 skrev Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se>:
> On 2022-07-24 at 19:36, Bonita Montero wrote:
>> Am 20.07.2022 um 04:08 schrieb Cholo Lennon:
>>> Carbon, the latest programming language to be built within Google, was 
>>> unveiled today as an experimental successor to C++...
>>>
>>> https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/
>> 
>> I don't know why such a language should be necessary. I don't have
>> notworthy issues with writing C++-code, even with C++20. But of course
>> such a language is easier to learn, but once you've get fluent with C++
>> there's no difference when the features are mostly the same.
>
> The Carbon github page lists some of their reasons to create a new 
> languagage:
>
> Welcoming open-source community
>
>   - Clear goals and priorities with robust governance
>   - Community that works to be welcoming, inclusive, and friendly
>   - Batteries-included approach: compiler, libraries, docs, tools, 
> package manager, and more
>
>
> Apparently those are things believed to be missing for C++.
>
>

The batteries-included part seems like something that is very much
today's flavour. You want a compiler that enforces a project
structure, handles fetching dependencies for you (Go can include
Github repositories directly in source if I'm not mistaken), lints
your code, generates documentation etc.

To some extent, it feels like these new programming languages are more
of an ecosystem that you need to buy into and do everything their way
rather than being a compiler and a grammar turning your scribbles into
machine code.

An example to compare with C++ is the problem of choosing your build
system. Do you use Scons, CMake, Automake, GNU Make, BSD Make, etc?
Freedom is nice, but I can understand why someone wouldn't want to put
energy into choosing a build system.

I don't really know how to feel about this. Maybe providing one true
way of organising your build system, managing dependencies etc.
dictated by the language is the way of the future?

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#85859

On 8/11/2022 10:38 AM, Andreas Kempe wrote:
> Den 2022-07-24 skrev Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se>:
>> On 2022-07-24 at 19:36, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>> Am 20.07.2022 um 04:08 schrieb Cholo Lennon:
>>>> Carbon, the latest programming language to be built within Google, was
>>>> unveiled today as an experimental successor to C++...
>>>>
>>>> https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/
>>>
>>> I don't know why such a language should be necessary. I don't have
>>> notworthy issues with writing C++-code, even with C++20. But of course
>>> such a language is easier to learn, but once you've get fluent with C++
>>> there's no difference when the features are mostly the same.
>>
>> The Carbon github page lists some of their reasons to create a new
>> languagage:
>>
>> Welcoming open-source community
>>
>>    - Clear goals and priorities with robust governance
>>    - Community that works to be welcoming, inclusive, and friendly
>>    - Batteries-included approach: compiler, libraries, docs, tools,
>> package manager, and more
>>
>>
>> Apparently those are things believed to be missing for C++.
>>
>>
> 
> The batteries-included part seems like something that is very much
> today's flavour. You want a compiler that enforces a project
> structure, handles fetching dependencies for you (Go can include
> Github repositories directly in source if I'm not mistaken), lints
> your code, generates documentation etc.

Fwiw, check this out:

https://vcpkg.io/en/index.html

;^)

[...]

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#85870

Den 2022-08-11 skrev Chris M. Thomasson <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com>:
> On 8/11/2022 10:38 AM, Andreas Kempe wrote:
>> Den 2022-07-24 skrev Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se>:
>>> On 2022-07-24 at 19:36, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>> Am 20.07.2022 um 04:08 schrieb Cholo Lennon:
>>>>> Carbon, the latest programming language to be built within Google, was
>>>>> unveiled today as an experimental successor to C++...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/
>>>>
>>>> I don't know why such a language should be necessary. I don't have
>>>> notworthy issues with writing C++-code, even with C++20. But of course
>>>> such a language is easier to learn, but once you've get fluent with C++
>>>> there's no difference when the features are mostly the same.
>>>
>>> The Carbon github page lists some of their reasons to create a new
>>> languagage:
>>>
>>> Welcoming open-source community
>>>
>>>    - Clear goals and priorities with robust governance
>>>    - Community that works to be welcoming, inclusive, and friendly
>>>    - Batteries-included approach: compiler, libraries, docs, tools,
>>> package manager, and more
>>>
>>>
>>> Apparently those are things believed to be missing for C++.
>>>
>>>
>> 
>> The batteries-included part seems like something that is very much
>> today's flavour. You want a compiler that enforces a project
>> structure, handles fetching dependencies for you (Go can include
>> Github repositories directly in source if I'm not mistaken), lints
>> your code, generates documentation etc.
>
> Fwiw, check this out:
>
> https://vcpkg.io/en/index.html
>
> ;^)
>
> [...]
>

I haven't used Windows in a good while now so I don't know how one
usually handles libraries on the Windows platform, but a package
manager that allows you to install library dependencies that can be
included using standard CMake syntax seems like a good idea if Windows
doesn't have its own package manager.

Unless you follow their advice of using the package manager as a Git
submodule and also decide to make it an integral part of the
compilation process, you should still be able to compile it
"normally".

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#85860

11.08.2022 20:38 Andreas Kempe kirjutas:
> An example to compare with C++ is the problem of choosing your build
> system. Do you use Scons, CMake, Automake, GNU Make, BSD Make, etc?
> Freedom is nice, but I can understand why someone wouldn't want to put
> energy into choosing a build system.
> 
> I don't really know how to feel about this. Maybe providing one true
> way of organising your build system, managing dependencies etc.
> dictated by the language is the way of the future?

There is an xkcd about this: https://xkcd.com/927

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#85875

On 2022-08-11 at 19:38, Andreas Kempe wrote:
> Den 2022-07-24 skrev Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se>:
>> On 2022-07-24 at 19:36, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>> Am 20.07.2022 um 04:08 schrieb Cholo Lennon:
>>>> Carbon, the latest programming language to be built within Google, was
>>>> unveiled today as an experimental successor to C++...
>>>>
>>>> https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/
>>>
>>> I don't know why such a language should be necessary. I don't have
>>> notworthy issues with writing C++-code, even with C++20. But of course
>>> such a language is easier to learn, but once you've get fluent with C++
>>> there's no difference when the features are mostly the same.
>>
>> The Carbon github page lists some of their reasons to create a new
>> languagage:
>>
>> Welcoming open-source community
>>
>>    - Clear goals and priorities with robust governance
>>    - Community that works to be welcoming, inclusive, and friendly
>>    - Batteries-included approach: compiler, libraries, docs, tools,
>> package manager, and more
>>
>>
>> Apparently those are things believed to be missing for C++.
>>
>>
> 
> The batteries-included part seems like something that is very much
> today's flavour. You want a compiler that enforces a project
> structure, handles fetching dependencies for you (Go can include
> Github repositories directly in source if I'm not mistaken), lints
> your code, generates documentation etc.
> 

But why do you need a new language to provide the tools? Can you not do 
that for an existing language?

My impression is that the first two points might be the main reason for 
the new language. The last one is just the effect of starting over.


Also, isn't it a bit odd - when having backward compatibility as a major 
road block for new changes in C++ - to base your new language on total 
interoperability with just C++?

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#85890

Den 2022-08-12 skrev Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se>:
> On 2022-08-11 at 19:38, Andreas Kempe wrote:
>> Den 2022-07-24 skrev Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se>:
>>> On 2022-07-24 at 19:36, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>> Am 20.07.2022 um 04:08 schrieb Cholo Lennon:
>>>>> Carbon, the latest programming language to be built within Google, was
>>>>> unveiled today as an experimental successor to C++...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/
>>>>
>>>> I don't know why such a language should be necessary. I don't have
>>>> notworthy issues with writing C++-code, even with C++20. But of course
>>>> such a language is easier to learn, but once you've get fluent with C++
>>>> there's no difference when the features are mostly the same.
>>>
>>> The Carbon github page lists some of their reasons to create a new
>>> languagage:
>>>
>>> Welcoming open-source community
>>>
>>>    - Clear goals and priorities with robust governance
>>>    - Community that works to be welcoming, inclusive, and friendly
>>>    - Batteries-included approach: compiler, libraries, docs, tools,
>>> package manager, and more
>>>
>>>
>>> Apparently those are things believed to be missing for C++.
>>>
>>>
>> 
>> The batteries-included part seems like something that is very much
>> today's flavour. You want a compiler that enforces a project
>> structure, handles fetching dependencies for you (Go can include
>> Github repositories directly in source if I'm not mistaken), lints
>> your code, generates documentation etc.
>> 
>
> But why do you need a new language to provide the tools? Can you not do 
> that for an existing language?
>

It depends on how we want to go about it, I guess. For C++, we already
have all those tools as separate projects. Hypothetically, the C++
steering folks could of course start working on integrating tools,
project layout, etc. into the C++ specification to standardise them,
but I'm not too sure I would like that.

> My impression is that the first two points might be the main reason for 
> the new language. The last one is just the effect of starting over.
>

I agree and think the causality is indeed the other way around. People
want new languages for $reasons and it is currently expected of new
languages to provide an entire ecosystem.

>
> Also, isn't it a bit odd - when having backward compatibility as a major 
> road block for new changes in C++ - to base your new language on total 
> interoperability with just C++?

If I am to do a cynical reading of this, I would say that Google want
something they control and are free to change to suite their purpose,
but they are too heavily invested in C++ to scrap all the existing
code so they need to be able to do a gradual change.

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#85597

On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC+3, Bonita Montero wrote:
> Am 20.07.2022 um 04:08 schrieb Cholo Lennon: 
> > Carbon, the latest programming language to be built within Google, was 
> > unveiled today as an experimental successor to C++... 
> > 
> > https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/
> I don't know why such a language should be necessary. I don't have 
> notworthy issues with writing C++-code, even with C++20. But of course 
> such a language is easier to learn, but once you've get fluent with C++ 
> there's no difference when the features are mostly the same.

Useful features are, may be, the same. Or will become the same if C++
"constraints and concepts" end up working, which is not given.

But C++ is full of harmful features that are invariably used by any
team of more than two C++ programmers that does not have very strong
and not too benevolent dictator.

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#85624

On 7/19/22 11:08 PM, Cholo Lennon wrote:
> Carbon, the latest programming language to be built within Google, was 
> unveiled today as an experimental successor to C++...
> 
> https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/

Bjarne Stroustrup's opinion about Carbon:

https://devclass.com/2022/07/25/c-inventor-stroustrup-says-googles-carbon-too-new-and-under-specified-for-meaningful-technical-comment/

--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG

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#85675

every language where count begins at zero be fixed. 
puppy 0
puppy 1
puppy 2
...
please. this lends itself to off by one all over the place. pointers of yesterday to think of just one. lol, lol, lol

i mean 0. lol

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