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"CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”"

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  "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2019-09-26 17:37 -0500
    Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" woodbrian77@gmail.com - 2019-09-27 09:24 -0700
    Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-27 09:54 -0700
      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-27 19:30 +0200
        Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2019-09-28 08:25 +0200
          Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-28 10:35 +0200
            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-09-28 01:51 -0700
              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-28 04:55 -0700
                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-09-28 22:08 +0100
                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Frederick Gotham <cauldwell.thomas@gmail.com> - 2019-09-30 02:16 -0700
                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-30 02:59 -0700
                    Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Frederick Gotham <cauldwell.thomas@gmail.com> - 2019-09-30 03:31 -0700
                      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-30 15:22 +0200
            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2019-09-28 13:33 +0200
              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-09-28 12:37 -0700
                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-09-29 10:09 +0000
                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-29 12:48 +0200
                    Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2019-09-30 19:38 +0000
                      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-09-30 13:38 -0700
                        Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-09-30 13:42 -0700
                      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-01 09:20 +0200
                        Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-10-01 00:58 -0700
                          Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-01 10:58 +0200
                          Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-10-07 21:23 +0000
                            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-10-07 22:20 +0000
                            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-10-08 09:23 +0000
                              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-10-08 19:47 +0000
                                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2019-10-08 19:53 +0000
                                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-10-09 07:02 +0000
                                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-09 10:06 +0200
                                    Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-10-09 13:57 +0000
                                      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-09 17:29 +0200
                                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-10-09 09:00 +0000
                                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-10-09 11:09 -0400
                                    Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2019-10-09 15:40 +0000
                                      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-10-09 17:11 +0100
                                      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-10-10 09:32 +0000
                        Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-10-01 15:20 +0200
                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" seeplus <boardmounrt@gmail.com> - 2019-09-29 05:02 -0700
            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2019-09-28 18:49 +0200
              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-09-28 19:50 +0200
            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-09-29 10:06 +0000
              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-29 14:21 +0200
                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-09-29 13:33 +0000
                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-29 15:46 +0200
                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2019-09-29 15:43 +0100
          Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-28 05:05 -0700
            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2019-09-28 15:52 +0200
              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-28 07:34 -0700
                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2019-09-28 16:47 +0200
                  Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-28 08:39 -0700
        Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2019-09-29 04:40 -0700
      Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-09-28 07:43 +1200
        Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-27 13:01 -0700
        Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" red floyd <dont.bother@its.invalid> - 2019-09-27 14:38 -0700
          Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-09-28 10:51 +1200
            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable”" rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-27 16:11 -0700
            Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-09-29 10:17 +0000
              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-29 14:34 +0200
              Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-09-29 09:49 -0700
                Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???" "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-09-29 12:59 -0400

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#68737

On 9/28/2019 6:49 PM, Manfred wrote:
> On 9/28/19 10:35 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 28/09/2019 08:25, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>>> Am 27.09.19 um 19:30 schrieb David Brown:
>>>> On 27/09/2019 18:54, rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The keynote with Bjarne Stroustrup was prefaced by a boy in drag.
>>>>>
>>>>> I contacted the CppCon and told them it was inappropriate
>>>
>>>> I know you don't read my posts, I know this is off-topic, and I know 
>>>> it might provoke another ridiculous sermon.  But it bothers me too 
>>>> much to see prejudice left uncommented.
>>>>
>>>> The man introducing the speaker has long hair.  That is /all/.
>>>
>>> I think he was referring to that video:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/u_ij0YNkFUs?t=30
>>
>> That wasn't the video linked.
>>
>>>
>>> The teenage boy here wears a dress.
>>
>> Yes.  So what?  People can wear what they want, dress as they like, 
>> within the standards considered acceptable to the people around in the 
>> context in question.  His clothes are entirely respectable - merely a 
>> little unusual.
> 
> I'll have a bit of an out-of-the-choir voice here.
> 
> My question is why the boy was invited on stage.
> I am open to correction, 
And I should be.

> but it is possible that the boy's outfit was 
> the reason Jon Kalb invited him on the stage - possibly to promote a 
> message about minorities' inclusion (or anything else, my only point is 
> that whatever the reason it doesn't seem related to software development).
Listening closer to the fragment, I realized my message was wrong.
My apologies.
[snipped]

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#68748 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> The teenage boy here wears a dress.
> 
> Yes.  So what?  People can wear what they want, dress as they like, 
> within the standards considered acceptable to the people around in the 
> context in question.  His clothes are entirely respectable - merely a 
> little unusual.

The question is not what he was wearing. The question is *why* he was
chosen to appear there.

Was he chosen to appear there because he was the most competent and
apt person for that role, chosen because of his knowledge, skill and
experience, which made him the best person for that role?

Or was he chosen to appear there because of virtue-signaling, identity
politics, and an attempt at social engineering that has absolutely nothing
to do with C++ or anything?

Identity politics have absolutely nothing to do with C++. Keep politics
out of it. Especially keep politics out of it when they are artificially
shoved in just to score virtue-signaling points, and to try to participate
in this massive social engineering campaign that has been going on.

I don't care what kind of politics it is. Left, right, center, up, down.
I don't care. Keep it out of things like C++ development. They don't
belong there.

> And if Rick thinks that is "drag" - well, I think he should probably get 
> out a bit more.  Perhaps he should go and see a real drag show, or maybe 
> even /talk/ with some people who don't share his bigotry and fanaticism. 

Where are you getting this "bigotry" and "fanaticism" from?

I bet you don't even know what the word "bigotry" means. You should look
it up some time.

> If you believe that a god created people as either male or female, 
> falling in strict categories for biology, appearance, sexuality, 
> behaviour - you have your eyes closed to reality.

Feminist academics making assertions about biology and psychology
is not reality. It's their own fantasy that they are trying to
impose onto society and onto people, via more and more draconian
measures and legislation.

> And if you believe 
> that a god is ordering you to hate and mistreat people who don't match 
> your blinkered black-or-white viewpoint, you have misunderstood the 
> message from that god.

Where exactly are you getting that from? "Hate" and "mistreat"? Did
you pull that from your ass?

And you are calling him bigted and fanatic.

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#68754 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

On 29/09/2019 12:06, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>> The teenage boy here wears a dress.
>>
>> Yes.  So what?  People can wear what they want, dress as they like,
>> within the standards considered acceptable to the people around in the
>> context in question.  His clothes are entirely respectable - merely a
>> little unusual.
> 
> The question is not what he was wearing. The question is *why* he was
> chosen to appear there.
> 
> Was he chosen to appear there because he was the most competent and
> apt person for that role, chosen because of his knowledge, skill and
> experience, which made him the best person for that role?

I have been assuming he was chosen because he was appropriate for the 
job, with a total disregard for what he wore.

> 
> Or was he chosen to appear there because of virtue-signaling, identity
> politics, and an attempt at social engineering that has absolutely nothing
> to do with C++ or anything?
> 
> Identity politics have absolutely nothing to do with C++. Keep politics
> out of it. Especially keep politics out of it when they are artificially
> shoved in just to score virtue-signaling points, and to try to participate
> in this massive social engineering campaign that has been going on.
> 
> I don't care what kind of politics it is. Left, right, center, up, down.
> I don't care. Keep it out of things like C++ development. They don't
> belong there.

I don't see fighting against prejudice as political.  (Some people do - 
I've never understood that.)  And I see it as a responsibility for 
everyone.

Of course that does not mean it should be part of every context - we'd 
never get anywhere if we brought all good causes up every chance we got. 
  Sometimes a conference on one subject might decide on a particular 
cause to support - whether it is tolerance for minorities, the climate, 
or whatever.  But they have to be careful and avoid polarising topics 
where there is a lot of disagreement (like the "freedom to carry guns" 
vs. "freedom not to get shot" debates in the USA).

I don't know the context for choosing this presenter.  Assuming he was 
chosen for sensible reasons, I fully support his right to wear what he 
wants.

> 
>> And if Rick thinks that is "drag" - well, I think he should probably get
>> out a bit more.  Perhaps he should go and see a real drag show, or maybe
>> even /talk/ with some people who don't share his bigotry and fanaticism.
> 
> Where are you getting this "bigotry" and "fanaticism" from?
> 
> I bet you don't even know what the word "bigotry" means. You should look
> it up some time.

Are you unfamiliar with Rick and his philosophies?

Boycotting a conference because you see it as focusing on the wrong 
thing - supporting minorities rather than discussing C++ - is absolutely 
fine.  Pick the conferences, videos, etc., that interest you.

Boycotting it because a guy in it wanted to wear a dress is bigotry. 
And /that/ is the reason Rick gave.

> 
>> If you believe that a god created people as either male or female,
>> falling in strict categories for biology, appearance, sexuality,
>> behaviour - you have your eyes closed to reality.
> 
> Feminist academics making assertions about biology and psychology
> is not reality. It's their own fantasy that they are trying to
> impose onto society and onto people, via more and more draconian
> measures and legislation.

Please tell me you are not suggesting that the fact that some people 
don't fit a simple "all male" or "all female" categorisation is merely 
the imaginings of feminist academics?  This is not the place to discuss 
details, but that is either ignorance or denialism.

(I have no idea if the person on the video is transgender, or simply 
finds the dress comfortable clothes.)

> 
>> And if you believe
>> that a god is ordering you to hate and mistreat people who don't match
>> your blinkered black-or-white viewpoint, you have misunderstood the
>> message from that god.
> 
> Where exactly are you getting that from? "Hate" and "mistreat"? Did
> you pull that from your ass?
> 
> And you are calling him bigted and fanatic.
> 

Again I ask, are you familiar with Rick?

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#68756 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> Was he chosen to appear there because he was the most competent and
>> apt person for that role, chosen because of his knowledge, skill and
>> experience, which made him the best person for that role?
> 
> I have been assuming he was chosen because he was appropriate for the 
> job, with a total disregard for what he wore.

Maybe. But you'll have to forgive me for having some doubts.

> I don't see fighting against prejudice as political.

It's 100% political, especially in the modern western world.
And it does not belong to C++ development.

When you introduce identity politics into a conference that has
absolutely nothing to do with it, that's a sure way to destroy
it. That's exactly what happened to the PHP Central Europe
conference, even though the organizers did absolutely nothing
wrong. (And I'm not saying this with the meaning "they did this
and this, but that's not wrong." No. They genuinely did absolutely
nothing to warrant anything. They were still destroyed by identitarian
ideology.)

As for the rest of your questions, I think I'm going to abstain.
We could have a miles-long discussion about identity politics, but
my intent is to keep them *out* of a C++ forum, not introduce them.
I'd like to keep the conversation limited to this particular C++
conference.

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#68757 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

On 29/09/2019 15:33, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>> Was he chosen to appear there because he was the most competent and
>>> apt person for that role, chosen because of his knowledge, skill and
>>> experience, which made him the best person for that role?
>>
>> I have been assuming he was chosen because he was appropriate for the
>> job, with a total disregard for what he wore.
> 
> Maybe. But you'll have to forgive me for having some doubts.

Since I have not followed the details of the video or conference, then I 
can't be sure why he was chosen.  So of course it is fair to have doubts.

> 
>> I don't see fighting against prejudice as political.
> 
> It's 100% political, especially in the modern western world.

I think we will get nowhere with re-statements of our positions, and a 
more detailed discussion (including finding common ground on what 
"political" means) is well beyond the scope of this thread!

> And it does not belong to C++ development.
> 
> When you introduce identity politics into a conference that has
> absolutely nothing to do with it, that's a sure way to destroy
> it. That's exactly what happened to the PHP Central Europe
> conference, even though the organizers did absolutely nothing
> wrong. (And I'm not saying this with the meaning "they did this
> and this, but that's not wrong." No. They genuinely did absolutely
> nothing to warrant anything. They were still destroyed by identitarian
> ideology.)

I don't know that situation.  I use a little PHP, but not enough for it 
to interest me much, and have not come across news about any conference 
from reading more general sources.

I do agree with you that it is important not to let other issues 
overwhelm the point of a conference.

> 
> As for the rest of your questions, I think I'm going to abstain.
> We could have a miles-long discussion about identity politics, but
> my intent is to keep them *out* of a C++ forum, not introduce them.
> I'd like to keep the conversation limited to this particular C++
> conference.
> 

Fair enough.

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#68758 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

On 29/09/2019 13:21, David Brown wrote:
> On 29/09/2019 12:06, Juha Nieminen wrote:
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>>> The teenage boy here wears a dress.
>>>
>>> Yes.  So what?  People can wear what they want, dress as they like,
>>> within the standards considered acceptable to the people around in the
>>> context in question.  His clothes are entirely respectable - merely a
>>> little unusual.
>>
>> The question is not what he was wearing. The question is *why* he was
>> chosen to appear there.
>>
>> Was he chosen to appear there because he was the most competent and
>> apt person for that role, chosen because of his knowledge, skill and
>> experience, which made him the best person for that role?
>
> I have been assuming he was chosen because he was appropriate for the
> job, with a total disregard for what he wore.
>

If you watch the video, you'll see that she (her name is "April") was 
chosen because she was one of the two high-school students registered 
for the conference.  (Of course, there could be other unspoken 
motivations, but on face value I'd say that was a nice gesture...)

Mike.


>>
>> Or was he chosen to appear there because of virtue-signaling, identity
>> politics, and an attempt at social engineering that has absolutely
>> nothing
>> to do with C++ or anything?
>>
>> Identity politics have absolutely nothing to do with C++. Keep politics
>> out of it. Especially keep politics out of it when they are artificially
>> shoved in just to score virtue-signaling points, and to try to
>> participate
>> in this massive social engineering campaign that has been going on.
>>
>> I don't care what kind of politics it is. Left, right, center, up, down.
>> I don't care. Keep it out of things like C++ development. They don't
>> belong there.
>
> I don't see fighting against prejudice as political.  (Some people do -
> I've never understood that.)  And I see it as a responsibility for
> everyone.
>
> Of course that does not mean it should be part of every context - we'd
> never get anywhere if we brought all good causes up every chance we got.
>  Sometimes a conference on one subject might decide on a particular
> cause to support - whether it is tolerance for minorities, the climate,
> or whatever.  But they have to be careful and avoid polarising topics
> where there is a lot of disagreement (like the "freedom to carry guns"
> vs. "freedom not to get shot" debates in the USA).
>
> I don't know the context for choosing this presenter.  Assuming he was
> chosen for sensible reasons, I fully support his right to wear what he
> wants.
>
>>
>>> And if Rick thinks that is "drag" - well, I think he should probably get
>>> out a bit more.  Perhaps he should go and see a real drag show, or maybe
>>> even /talk/ with some people who don't share his bigotry and fanaticism.
>>
>> Where are you getting this "bigotry" and "fanaticism" from?
>>
>> I bet you don't even know what the word "bigotry" means. You should look
>> it up some time.
>
> Are you unfamiliar with Rick and his philosophies?
>
> Boycotting a conference because you see it as focusing on the wrong
> thing - supporting minorities rather than discussing C++ - is absolutely
> fine.  Pick the conferences, videos, etc., that interest you.
>
> Boycotting it because a guy in it wanted to wear a dress is bigotry. And
> /that/ is the reason Rick gave.
>
>>
>>> If you believe that a god created people as either male or female,
>>> falling in strict categories for biology, appearance, sexuality,
>>> behaviour - you have your eyes closed to reality.
>>
>> Feminist academics making assertions about biology and psychology
>> is not reality. It's their own fantasy that they are trying to
>> impose onto society and onto people, via more and more draconian
>> measures and legislation.
>
> Please tell me you are not suggesting that the fact that some people
> don't fit a simple "all male" or "all female" categorisation is merely
> the imaginings of feminist academics?  This is not the place to discuss
> details, but that is either ignorance or denialism.
>
> (I have no idea if the person on the video is transgender, or simply
> finds the dress comfortable clothes.)
>
>>
>>> And if you believe
>>> that a god is ordering you to hate and mistreat people who don't match
>>> your blinkered black-or-white viewpoint, you have misunderstood the
>>> message from that god.
>>
>> Where exactly are you getting that from? "Hate" and "mistreat"? Did
>> you pull that from your ass?
>>
>> And you are calling him bigted and fanatic.
>>
>
> Again I ask, are you familiar with Rick?

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#68731

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 2:25:47 AM UTC-4, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Fully agreed. And even if one believes that God created man and woman, 
> there is not the slightest indication that he created dresses 
> exclusively for women. Dresses were created by humans, and Gods most 
> probably as well.

On the day of judgment, ignorance will not be a valid excuse,
because all of the information God has given us about His
guidance for us, and the nature of this world in sin, and
the nature of our redemption through Christ, has been given
to us.

In America, you can't pass through a city and not find more
than several churches.  They are within walking distance
from probably 80-90% of the U.S. population, and within
driving distance of the rest.  It's on TV.  Bibles can be
ordered on Amazon.com and shipped right to your door.  You
can invite your Christian neighbor over for dinner, or that
co-worker, etc.

There will be no excuses:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A5&version=NIV;KJV

    KJV -- "5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth
    unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:
    for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."

    NIV -- "5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man
    wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone
    who does this."

    Note:  See my reply to Chris Thomasson for extended info
           on this Old Testament Law:

           https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.c++/t899RBBgr5A/543XNA0GCgAJ

The enemy of God has deceived the entire world with his lies.
Everyone who will not pursue the truth actively will be de-
ceived by that enemy, leading to their soul's death on Judgment
Day, and their soul being cast into Hell for all eternity.

But for all who will seek the truth they will be saved.

Many will be shocked to learn after they leave this world that
it was true, that sin was real, that judgment was real, that
Hell is real, that the warnings men and women like me have
given you throughout your ENTIRE LIFE were real.  It will be
too late then to be saved.  It is not too late today.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+3%3A13-15&version=NIV;KJV

    Do not harden your heart.
    While it is called "today" seek Him.

To you, "Christian G," and the others who will read this, in-
cluding David Brown, Leigh Johnston, Scott Lurndal, among others.

Seek the truth.  Don't let it fall down on you on Judgment Day.
Find it today while you can STILL be saved.

-- 
Rick C. Hodgin

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#68732

Am 28.09.19 um 14:05 schrieb rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com:
>      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A5&version=NIV;KJV
> 
>      KJV -- "5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth
>      unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:
>      for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."
> 
>      NIV -- "5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man
>      wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone
>      who does this."

And where in the bible is the definition, what constitutes a "woman's 
garment" and what "men's clothing"? This has varied over the ages and 
cultures so much that this statement is simply incomplete. Which is no 
wonder because it was written and edited by humans.


	Christian

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#68733

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 9:52:55 AM UTC-4, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 28.09.19 um 14:05 schrieb rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com:
> >      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A5&version=NIV;KJV
> > 
> >      KJV -- "5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth
> >      unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:
> >      for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."
> > 
> >      NIV -- "5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man
> >      wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone
> >      who does this."
> 
> And where in the bible is the definition, what constitutes a "woman's 
> garment" and what "men's clothing"? This has varied over the ages and 
> cultures so much that this statement is simply incomplete.

If you don't know, look to history, what has been traditional in your
area, from your grandparents, parents, society at large.

God recognizes variances in societal norms.  The main teaching here is
that men are to be men, and women women, and the two are not to have
any crossover.

This is reinforced by teachings against homosexuality, and even from
men being effeminate.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-10&version=NASB;KJV

It's written by men, inspired by God's Holy Spirit, which was like a
narrator inside your thoughts instructing them what to write.  The
whole of scripture affirms itself despite being written by about 40
different people over 1500 years.

-- 
Rick C. Hodgin

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#68734

On 2019-09-28 at 16:34, rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 9:52:55 AM UTC-4, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>> Am 28.09.19 um 14:05 schrieb rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com:
>>>       https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A5&version=NIV;KJV
>>>
>>>       KJV -- "5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth
>>>       unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:
>>>       for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."
>>>
>>>       NIV -- "5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man
>>>       wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone
>>>       who does this."
>>
>> And where in the bible is the definition, what constitutes a "woman's
>> garment" and what "men's clothing"? This has varied over the ages and
>> cultures so much that this statement is simply incomplete.
> 
> If you don't know, look to history, what has been traditional in your
> area, from your grandparents, parents, society at large.
> 
> God recognizes variances in societal norms.  The main teaching here is
> that men are to be men, and women women, and the two are not to have
> any crossover.
> 

Seem to me that in many popular images, Jesus himself was wearing 
something that looks like a dress.

Like here:

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/was-jesus-married/

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#68735

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 10:47:18 AM UTC-4, Bo Persson wrote:
> On 2019-09-28 at 16:34, rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 9:52:55 AM UTC-4, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> >> Am 28.09.19 um 14:05 schrieb rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com:
> >>>       https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A5&version=NIV;KJV
> >>>
> >>>       KJV -- "5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth
> >>>       unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:
> >>>       for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."
> >>>
> >>>       NIV -- "5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man
> >>>       wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone
> >>>       who does this."
> >>
> >> And where in the bible is the definition, what constitutes a "woman's
> >> garment" and what "men's clothing"? This has varied over the ages and
> >> cultures so much that this statement is simply incomplete.
> > 
> > If you don't know, look to history, what has been traditional in your
> > area, from your grandparents, parents, society at large.
> > 
> > God recognizes variances in societal norms.  The main teaching here is
> > that men are to be men, and women women, and the two are not to have
> > any crossover.
> > 
> 
> Seem to me that in many popular images, Jesus himself was wearing 
> something that looks like a dress.
> 
> Like here:
> 
> https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/was-jesus-married/

The Bible describes priestly attire for the tribe of Levi:

    https://www.bible-history.com/tabernacle/TAB4The_Priestly_Garments.htm

It's probably why he's portrayed like that.  Also Jerusalem was
under Roman rule during that time.  Togas, etc.

Regardless, the teaching is based on societal norms, and not
specific garments.  In addition, Christians are not under the Law
any longer, but the call remains to be separately men as men in
men's attire, women as women in women's attire, to be separate
and distinct.

You make the teaching intentionally difficult, and unnecessarily
so.  It reflects one thing:  The state of your heart in sin.

-- 
Rick C. Hodgin

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#68752

On 27/09/2019 18:30, David Brown wrote:
>
>
> The man introducing the speaker has long hair.  That is /all/.
>
>

He is gay (aka "homosexual" NOT "happy" as it used be defined) so don't 
get confused by it.

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#68715

On 28/09/2019 04:54, rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 6:37:20 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter “De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and
>> RTTI More Affordable and Usable”"
>>      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARYP83yNAWk&t=1s
>>
>> That is a 1.5 hour speech !
>>
>> Lynn
> 
> The keynote with Bjarne Stroustrup was prefaced by a boy in drag.
> 
> I contacted the CppCon and told them it was inappropriate, and I would
> not be watching any of their videos from that point forward.

You really a nasty bigoted twat.

-- 
Ian.

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#68716

On 9/27/2019 3:43 PM, Ian Collins wrote:> On 28/09/2019 04:54, rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com wrote:
>> I contacted the CppCon and told them it was inappropriate, and I would
>> not be watching any of their videos from that point forward.
> 
> You really a nasty bigoted .. .

If by "nasty bigoted t-word" you mean "I believe in the principles
of male and female as created by God, upheld by Jesus Christ, and
those that will endure in this world by His guidance until the end-
times, then yes I agree.

It's not being a bigot to uphold the principles God established:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A27%2C+2%3A21-25%2C+5%3A1-2&version=KJV

In those few verses are heterosexuality, lifelong marriage, an
establishment of the traditional male + female family, and the
propagation of the species being through such a marriage.

God is not a bigot.  He is God.  He's teaching us the right way
to do things.  Those who rebel against God are rebelling against
His teachings, and calling God's servants bigots.

Wise up, Ian.  The day of accountability for your life is coming
hard and fast.  How will you stand with such a rebellion against
God active and present in your life?  It's time to repent and
seek the truth, lest you lose your soul on that day of accounta-
bility, also known as Judgment Day or the Great White Throne
Judgment.

Study God, Ian.  Read the Bible seeking the truth.  You WILL NOT
be disappointed in God's guidance and provision for your life,
and in the age to come.  You will be disappointed by the future
your current rebellion against God does not afford you, and very
solidly does not afford you in fact.

Tick tock, people.  Your lives are winding down.  That final day
where you stand before God to give an account of your life is
coming.  For some it will be sooner rather than later, so it is
a right course of action to take steps for that final day while
it is still called TODAY.

-- 
Rick C. Hodgin

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#68718

On 9/27/2019 12:43 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
> On 28/09/2019 04:54, rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com wrote:
>> [his usual drivel]
> You really a nasty bigoted twat.
> 
And this surprises you how?

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#68720

On 28/09/2019 09:38, red floyd wrote:
> On 9/27/2019 12:43 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
>> On 28/09/2019 04:54, rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com wrote:
>>> [his usual drivel]
>> You really a nasty bigoted twat.
>>
> And this surprises you how?

No one bit unfortunately, but it still annoys me given the effort 
conferences go to to be safe, inclusive places.

Sorry for setting him off.

-- 
Ian.

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#68721

On 9/27/2019 6:51 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
> Sorry for setting him off.

Read what "he" wrote, Ian.  It's important to your soul.

What this world calls being "inclusive" is actually enmity
with God.  "Friendship with the world is enmity with God":

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4%3A4&version=NIV;KJV

Seek God, Ian.  Let Him lead you, your life, your family,
your business, everything.  It is THE right and proper way.

-- 
Rick C. Hodgin

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#68750 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote:
> No one bit unfortunately, but it still annoys me given the effort 
> conferences go to to be safe, inclusive places.

"Safe"? What the fuck are you talking about? How is a C++ conference
"unsafe" for anybody? What "safety" is this that you are talking about,
and what does it have anything to do with scoring virtue-signaling points
by shoving a token "minority" person onto the stage? How does that make
anything "safe"? Are people's lives in danger if they don't shove that
person onto the stage for everybody to see and for them to feel good
about themselves?

You are using this regressive leftist neologism, a complete redefinition
of the word "safe", with a completely different meaning which has nothing
to do with its previous conventional meaning, which is malleable and
nobody can clearly define. Why? Why does everything need to be infected
by the regressive leftist poison?

C++ has absolutely nothing to do with identity politics. Why does it
have to be forcefully shoved into it?

Keep politics out of C++. It has nothing to do with it.

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#68755 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

On 29/09/2019 12:17, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> No one bit unfortunately, but it still annoys me given the effort
>> conferences go to to be safe, inclusive places.
> 
> "Safe"? What the fuck are you talking about? How is a C++ conference
> "unsafe" for anybody? What "safety" is this that you are talking about,
> and what does it have anything to do with scoring virtue-signaling points
> by shoving a token "minority" person onto the stage? How does that make
> anything "safe"? Are people's lives in danger if they don't shove that
> person onto the stage for everybody to see and for them to feel good
> about themselves?

People's lives (and health, and freedom to live and be happy) /are/ in 
danger when they are forced to hide away, and it is considered 
"acceptable" to force everyone into little square moulds.  Look up some 
statistics about suicide rates amongst gays, transgenders, and other 
minorities.  When those are down to the average levels in society, you 
can start talking about them being safe.

The grand aim is /not/ to "shove people onto a stage".  The aim is for 
it not to matter in the slightest, for no one to bat an eyelid if the 
guy wants to wear a dress.  /Then/ we will have safe, inclusive places.

> 
> You are using this regressive leftist neologism, a complete redefinition
> of the word "safe", with a completely different meaning which has nothing
> to do with its previous conventional meaning, which is malleable and
> nobody can clearly define. Why? Why does everything need to be infected
> by the regressive leftist poison?
> 
> C++ has absolutely nothing to do with identity politics. Why does it
> have to be forcefully shoved into it?
> 
> Keep politics out of C++. It has nothing to do with it.
> 

Politics has nothing to do with C++, agreed.  Politics also has nothing 
to do with letting people be themselves without others imposing their 
fears or prejudice on them.

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#68759 — Re: "CppCon 2019: Herb Sutter ???De-fragmenting C++: Making Exceptions and RTTI More Affordable and Usable???"

Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> writes:
[...]
> Keep politics out of C++. It has nothing to do with it.

Keep politics out of comp.lang.c++.  Stop posting about it here.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Will write code for food.
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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