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===Welcome to comp.lang.c++! Read this first.

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  ===Welcome to comp.lang.c++! Read this first. Shiva <jshiva@bigfoot.com> - 2012-04-08 04:30 +0000
    Wrapping and variable⋅width glyphs are the default so...  @Jeff-Relf.Me - 2012-04-08 07:47 -0700
      Re: Wrapping and variable???width glyphs are the default so... ?????? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-04-11 21:59 +0000
        Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much.  @Jeff-Relf.Me - 2012-04-11 16:05 -0700
          Re: Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much.  Noah Roberts <roberts.noah@gmail.com> - 2012-04-11 16:11 -0700
            Noah⋅Roberts can't work a browser, can't upgrade to Win7.  @Jeff-Relf.Me - 2012-04-11 16:26 -0700
              Re: Noah⋅Roberts can't work a browser, can't upgrade to Win7.  drew@furrfu.invalid (Drew Lawson) - 2012-04-12 13:46 +0000
                Re:  Jeff Relf can't understand a spec, can't fix his br0ken newsreader moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2012-04-12 15:03 +0000
                  Re:  Jeff Relf can't understand a spec, can't fix his br0ken newsreader snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk (Sn!pe) - 2012-04-12 19:08 +0100
            [OT][JR] Re: Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much. Peter J Ross <pjr@example.invalid> - 2012-04-12 22:13 +0000
          Re: Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much.  scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2012-04-12 00:37 +0000
            Re: JorgenÔïàGrahn doesn't get out much. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2012-04-14 21:22 -0400
              Re: JorgenÔïàGrahn doesn't get out much. Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2012-04-15 16:49 +0000
                Re: JorgenÔïàGrahn doesn't get out much. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2012-04-17 12:33 -0400

#15243 — ===Welcome to comp.lang.c++! Read this first.

Welcome to comp.lang.c++! Read this first.

This post is intended to give the new reader an introduction to reading
and posting in this newsgroup. We respectfully request that you read
all the way through this post, as it helps make for a more pleasant
and useful group for everyone.

First of all, please keep in mind that comp.lang.c++ is a group for discussion
of general issues of the C++ programming language, as defined by the ANSI/ISO
language standard. If you have a problem that is specific to a particular system
or compiler, you are much more likely to get complete and accurate answers in a 
group that specializes in your platform. A listing of some newsgroups is given
at the end of this post.

The FAQ (Frequently Asked Question) list has a wealth of information for
both the new and veteran C++ programmer.  No matter what your experience
level, you are encouraged to read the entire list, if only to familiarize
yourself with what answers are available to minimize redundant replies.
The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/

If the FAQ list does not help, then many regular readers of this group
are happy to assist with problems of standard C++.  We have only a few
requests that we ask be adhered to, for the benefit of all:

* Please put a short summary in the subject line.  Descriptions such as
  "HELP!!!!!!" are not helpful, and many regular posters ignore such
  requests.  A good example is, "Problem with Virtual Functions."

* State the question or the problem clearly and concisely.  Describe what
  you are trying to do, and the problem you are running into.  Include all
  relevant error messages.

* Include the smallest, complete and compilable program that exhibits your
  problem.  As a rule, posters in comp.lang.c++ will not do homework, but will
  give helpful hints if you have shown some willingness to try a solution.

* comp.lang.c++ is forum for discussion, and as such some regular posters do
  not give E-mail replies.  Very often follow-ups to postings have corrections,
  so plan on taking part in the discussion if you post a question.  If you
  do receive e-mail replies, it is considered polite to post a summary.

* Don't post in HTML format. Many readers of this newsgroup don't use
  newsreaders which can handle HTML postings.

* If you have to include source code in your post, include the
  source in the message body. Don't use attachments. A lot
  of contributors to this newsgroup won't even notice the existence
  of attachments or won't open them. You try to get any help
  you can get, don't you?

Some netiquette topics which frequently crop up on comp.lang.c++ are
also answered in the FAQ.

* Should I post job advertisements and/or resumes on comp.lang.c++?
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html#faq-5.10

* What if I really need a job; should I post my resume on comp.lang.c++? 
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html#faq-5.11

* What should I do to someone who posts something off-topic? 
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html#faq-5.12

A note on comp.lang.c++ etiquette: Accuracy is valued very highly in this
newsgroup; therefore posts are frequently corrected, sometimes perhaps
too harshly, and often to the annoyance of new posters who consider the
correction trivial.  Do not take it personally; the best way to fit in
with comp.lang.c++ is to express gratitude for the correction, move on,
and be more careful next time.

This is a very busy group, so these requests are designed to make it as
pleasant and efficient an experience as possible.  We hope it proves
a valuable commodity to you.

A list of some Newsgroups :
Languages and Programming
-------------------------
comp.lang.c                The C Programming Language
comp.lang.asm.x86          x86 assembly language programming
comp.programming           Non-language specific programming
comp.graphics.algorithms   Issues of computer graphics

Operating Systems
-----------------
comp.os.msdos.programmer   DOS, BIOS, Memory Models, interrupts,
                           screen handling, hardware
comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32   MS/Windows: Mice, DLLs, hardware
comp.os.os2.programmer.misc          OS/2 Programming
comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc         Macintosh Programming
comp.unix.programmer                 General Unix: processes, pipes, POSIX,
                                     curses, sockets
comp.unix.[vendor]                   Various Unix vendors

Microsoft VC++
-------------
microsoft.public.vc.language VC++ issues
microsoft.public.vc.mfc      MFC Issues
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vc    C++/CLR Issues
microsoft.public.dotnet.framework       .Net Framework


Borland C++ Builder
-------------------
borland.public.cppbuilder.language   Borland C++ Builder
borland.public.cpp.language
borland.public.cppbuilder  

-Shiva
http://www.slack.net/~shiva/welcome.txt


Sun Apr  8 00:30:00 EDT 2012

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#15246 — Wrapping and variable⋅width glyphs are the default so... 

<PRE>
Re: "Welcome to comp.lang.c++! Read this first."
    "Don't post in HTML format." -- Shiva ( anonymous )

Wrapping and variable⋅width glyphs are the default so,
to get the indenting right, and to not wrap long lines,
the PRE tag (HTML) is the best way to display source code.

This is true for any forum/email⋅list, not just Usenet.

HTML won't change the colors I see, I override it ( to light on black );
but it can make one see flowing/wrapping text, with BR tags.

Also, (A) tags are nice, you can say, <A hRef="http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Wrap_HTML.EXE">Right-Click Here, Save As...</A>.
Then there's IMG tags, etc.                                          

PRE tags are the main thing, of course, so my posts look as intended
on Google Groups.  Google Groups is the most popular Usenet client/server,
but Thunderbird and Outlook are also popular, and they display HTML.

Any newsreader worth its salt would convert the HTML to plain⋅text
instead of launching an HTML viewer ( like FireFox or Lynx ).

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#15304 — Re: Wrapping and variable???width glyphs are the default so... ??????

On Sun, 2012-04-08, @Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
> <PRE>
> Re: "Welcome to comp.lang.c++! Read this first."
>     "Don't post in HTML format." -- Shiva ( anonymous )
>
...
> PRE tags are the main thing, of course, so my posts look as intended
> on Google Groups.  Google Groups is the most popular Usenet client/server,
> but Thunderbird and Outlook are also popular, and they display HTML.
>
> Any newsreader worth its salt would convert the HTML to plainâ‹…text
> instead of launching an HTML viewer ( like FireFox or Lynx ).

- silently cross-posted for no good reason
- broken quoting
- broken MIME (claims to be text/html, but isn't)
- violates group policy by trying
- displays badly in my newsreader
--> plonk

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#15306 — Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much. 

<PRE>
Re: news:slrnjobvmj.1ls.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid

My header had, "Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8".
Yet he claims I didn't post HTML.
Why ?  What does he think HTML is ?

Also, he can't quote me properly... shame, shame; 
he re⋅posted UTF⋅8 as if it were "ISO-8859-1".

  "ISO-8859-1" is a joke of a charset;
  whenever it's seen, everyone ( FireFox, IE, Outlook, everyone )
  assumes "Windows⋅1252" was the intent.

Bottom line, Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much.
Both HTML and UTF⋅8 ( i.e. email and web⋅pages ) are foreign to him.

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#15308 — Re: Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much. 

On Apr 11, 4:05 pm, @Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
> Re: news:slrnjobvmj.1ls.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid My header had, "Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8". Yet he claims I didn't post HTML. Why ? What does he think HTML is ? Also, he can't quote me properly... shame, shame; he re⋅posted UTF⋅8 as if it were "ISO-8859-1". "ISO-8859-1" is a joke of a charset; whenever it's seen, everyone ( FireFox, IE, Outlook, everyone ) assumes "Windows⋅1252" was the intent. Bottom line, Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much. Both HTML and UTF⋅8 ( i.e. email and web⋅pages ) are foreign to him.

I do have to say that your posts render so small on google groups that
it's almost impossible to read.  You might do well to listen to those
trying to talk some sense into you and go set up your reader to send
text, as is expected on Usenet....or maybe go fuck around on some
forum or stackoverflow or something.

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#15310 — Noah⋅Roberts can't work a browser, can't upgrade to Win7. 

<PRE>
Noah⋅Roberts told me:
« your posts render so small on google groups that
  it's almost impossible to read. »

Hold down the Ctrl key while "wheeling" your mouse.
Alternatively, hit Ctrl⋅+ and Ctrl⋅-.
Notice how things get smaller and/or larger ?

Also, in your <A href="http://Jeff-Relf.Me/userContent.CSS.TXT">userContent.CSS</A> ( for FireFox )
you can specify the font size for text in PRE tags.

Again, here's another person ( Noah ) who's bad at HTML and CSS.
He stuck on WinXP, by the way; probably can't manage the upgrade.

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#15321 — Re: Noah⋅Roberts can't work a browser, can't upgrade to Win7. 

In article <Jeff-Relf.Me@2012_Apr.11^4.26^PM>
	@Jeff-Relf.Me writes:
><PRE>
>Noah⋅Roberts told me:
>« your posts render so small on google groups that
>  it's almost impossible to read. »
>
>Hold down the Ctrl key while "wheeling" your mouse.
>Alternatively, hit Ctrl⋅+ and Ctrl⋅-.
>Notice how things get smaller and/or larger ?

I haven't noticed you posting anything that is anywhere near worth
that much effort.


-- 
 Drew Lawson             | What you own is your own kingdom
                         | What you do is your own glory
                         | What you love is your own power
                         | What you live is your own story

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#15322 — Re:  Jeff Relf can't understand a spec, can't fix his br0ken newsreader

drew@furrfu.invalid (Drew Lawson) writes:

>In article <Jeff-Relf.Me@2012_Apr.11^4.26^PM>
>	@Jeff-Relf.Me writes:
>>Hold down the Ctrl key while "wheeling" your mouse.
>>Alternatively, hit Ctrl-+ and Ctrl--.
>>Notice how things get smaller and/or larger ?

>I haven't noticed you posting anything that is anywhere near worth
>that much effort.

Also Relf's antisocial personality disorder in play here. He expects
everyone else to do things to accommodate his whims, but for not him to do
things to accommodate others.

(besides, growing the size to read his text makes everything else too
big)

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#15326 — Re:  Jeff Relf can't understand a spec, can't fix his br0ken newsreader

Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote:

> drew@furrfu.invalid (Drew Lawson) writes:
> 
> >In article <Jeff-Relf.Me@2012_Apr.11^4.26^PM>
> >     @Jeff-Relf.Me writes:
> >>Hold down the Ctrl key while "wheeling" your mouse.
> >>Alternatively, hit Ctrl-+ and Ctrl--.
> >>Notice how things get smaller and/or larger ?
> 
> >I haven't noticed you posting anything that is anywhere near worth
> >that much effort.
> 
> Also Relf's antisocial personality disorder in play here. He expects
> everyone else to do things to accommodate his whims, but for not him to do
> things to accommodate others.
> 
> (besides, growing the size to read his text makes everything else too
> big)

Yeuch, Relf-droppings viewed under a microscope.

-- 
^Ï^.       Sn!pe       <snipe@notforspam.fsnet.co.uk>

My pet rock Gordon just looked away. 
 

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#15330 — [OT][JR] Re: Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much.

In news.software.readers on Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT),
Noah Roberts <roberts.noah@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do have to say that your posts render so small on google groups that
> it's almost impossible to read.

Is there any reason why you might think Jeff Relf's posts were worth
reading even if they were enlarged?

I'm probably Jeff's most assiduous reader in NSR. I find his lunacy
entertaining, but nobody else here does, and I have to add "[OT][JR]"
to my Subject lines if I want to avoid being killfiled.

And even I've had enough fun. I've just killfiled him. Sorry, Jeff:
your only remaining regular reader has just given up.


-- 
PJR :-)  |  οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ, τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
         |  φύλλα τὰ μέν τ' ἄνεμος χαμάδις χέει, ἄλλα δέ θ' ὕλη
         |  τηλεθόωσα φύει, ἔαρος δ' ἐπιγίγνεται ὥρη·
         |  ὣς ἀνδρῶν γενεὴ ἡ μὲν φύει ἡ δ' ἀπολήγει. (Homer)

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#15312 — Re: Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much. 

@Jeff-Relf.Me writes:
><PRE>
>Re: news:slrnjobvmj.1ls.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid
>
>My header had, "Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8".
>Yet he claims I didn't post HTML.
>Why ?  What does he think HTML is ?
>
>Also, he can't quote me properly... shame, shame; 
>he re⋅posted UTF⋅8 as if it were "ISO-8859-1".
>
>  "ISO-8859-1" is a joke of a charset;
>  whenever it's seen, everyone ( FireFox, IE, Outlook, everyone )
>  assumes "Windows⋅1252" was the intent.
>
>Bottom line, Jorgen⋅Grahn doesn't get out much.
>Both HTML and UTF⋅8 ( i.e. email and web⋅pages ) are foreign to him.


You've written a bunch of annoyingly unreadable crap, above.

Your assumption that all clients treat ISO-8859-1 as Windows 1251 is also
bogus (see headers).

scott

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#15393 — Re: JorgenÔïàGrahn doesn't get out much.

In <5tphr.3$515.1@news.usenetserver.com>, on 04/12/2012
   at 12:37 AM, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) said:

>Your assumption that all clients treat ISO-8859-1 as Windows 1251 is
>also bogus

Mah nishtanah ha lailah he zeh mikol haleiloth? ("Why is this night
different from all other nights?")

It's a JR assumption; of course it's bogus.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT  <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action.  I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.  Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me.  Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org

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#15394 — Re: JorgenÔïàGrahn doesn't get out much.

["Followup-To:" header set to news.software.readers.]
On 2012-04-15, Shmuel Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
> In <5tphr.3$515.1@news.usenetserver.com>, on 04/12/2012
>    at 12:37 AM, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) said:
>
>>Your assumption that all clients treat ISO-8859-1 as Windows 1251 is
>>also bogus
>
> Mah nishtanah ha lailah he zeh mikol haleiloth? ("Why is this night
> different from all other nights?")
>
> It's a JR assumption; of course it's bogus.

No-one can be wrong all the time  ;))

<http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080610/parsing.html>

    8.2.2.2. Character encoding requirements
    
    [...]
    
    When a user agent would otherwise use an encoding given in the first 
    column of the following table, it must instead use the encoding given
    in the cell in the second column of the same row. Any bytes that are
    treated differently due to this encoding aliasing must be considered
    parse errors. 

[this should look best in a fixed width font with sensible tab intervals]

    Character encoding overrides   
    
    Input encoding  	Replacement encoding  	References 
    EUC-KR  		Windows-949 		[EUCKR] [WIN949] 
    GB2312  		GBK 			[GB2312] [GBK] 
    GB_2312-80  	GBK 			[RFC1345] [GBK] 
    ISO-8859-1  	Windows-1252 		[RFC1345] [WIN1252] 
    ISO-8859-9  	Windows-1254 		[RFC1345] [WIN1254] 
    ISO-8859-11  	Windows-874 		[ISO885911] [WIN874] 
    KS_C_5601-1987  	Windows-949 		[RFC1345] [WIN949] 
    TIS-620  		Windows-874 		[TIS620] [WIN874] 
    x-x-big5  		Big5 			[BIG5] 


    Note: The requirement to treat certain encodings as other encodings 
    according to the table above is a willful violation of the W3C
    Character Model specification. [CHARMOD]

    [...]
    
Historically, so many web pages (designed with the help of tools running 
on Windows systems) declared "ISO 8859-1" when actually using Microsoft's 
own internal coding known as "Windows 1252", that it is now likely to 
produce fewer parsing errors if it is assumed that all pages declaring 
8859-1 are actually Windows 1252.

Of course, this only applies to web pages, not usenet where HTML of any 
sort is "deprecated" if not "abhored".  So some people manage to be wrong 
even when they're right  ;))

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

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#15440 — Re: JorgenÔïàGrahn doesn't get out much.

In <slrnjoluio.22k.catwheezel@ID-107770.user.individual.net>, on
04/15/2012
   at 04:49 PM, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> said:

>No-one can be wrong all the time  ;))

><http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080610/parsing.html>

That's for web clients, not for news clients, as you note.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT  <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action.  I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.  Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me.  Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org

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