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language popularity survey

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  language popularity survey Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2011-09-22 10:28 -0500
    Re: language popularity survey BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-22 11:53 -0700
      Re: language popularity survey Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2011-09-22 14:43 -0500
        Re: language popularity survey BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-22 13:13 -0700
    Re: language popularity survey Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-23 07:51 +1200
      Re: language popularity survey "Balog Pal" <pasa@lib.hu> - 2011-09-22 22:22 +0200
      Re: language popularity survey Stuart Redmann <DerTopper@web.de> - 2011-09-23 00:03 -0700
        Re: language popularity survey Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-23 10:32 +0000
        Re: language popularity survey Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-23 11:54 +0100
          Re: language popularity survey Stuart Redmann <DerTopper@web.de> - 2011-09-23 06:57 -0700
    Re: language popularity survey Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-23 11:33 +0100
    Re: language popularity survey DeMarcus <use_my_alias_here@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-23 14:12 +0200
      Re: language popularity survey Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2011-09-24 05:28 +0900
      Re: language popularity survey Qi <no@no.com> - 2011-09-25 16:51 +0800

#10394 — language popularity survey

In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
people):
    http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Java is #1, C is #2.  C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
Objective C is #6 and also rising.

Lynn

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#10399

On 9/22/2011 8:28 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
> C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
> people):
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>
> Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
> Objective C is #6 and also rising.
>

partial possible reasons:
there are many plain C codebases around, and "in the wild" C++ codebases 
(solely or dominantly) are not run into nearly as often IME (even then, 
they can be roughly divided into 3 major camps: C-like, Java-like, and 
"traditional" C++).

Java + C is fairly popular, but Java + C++ is not as much.
partial possible reason: neither JNI nor JNA provide good direct access 
to C++, and infact it may work as a hindrance in this case (though 
likely more psychological than practical).

although GCC's CNI is a good idea (allowing a more direct mapping 
between Java and C++ classes), it has not been embraced by the great 
Sun/Oracle ("Sunacle", as some have called it).

actually, one can wonder if they just don't care about providing a nice 
native interface, or if they were trying to actively and deliberately 
make it painful to discourage people from using it?...


Objective-C has popularity mostly as it is Apples' major language of 
choice, and Apple has gotten a lot more popular in recent years.


also possible:
C++, Java, and C#, compete mostly for a partly overlapping target area: 
front-end application development.

C++ is not as popular in systems-programming or back-end libraries 
(which are more of C's area), although C++ does have an advantage that 
Java and C# are mostly unusable in these areas (write kernel or drivers 
in Java == no).

however, in terms of ease of use, and providing expansive standardized 
library functionality, Java and C# have an advantage (for example, there 
is no direct/standardized C++ analogue of AWT/Swing or WinForms or WPF).


not that it is all bad news though, as C and C++ are still the 
top-players in areas where performance is important, as, despite some 
claims, C# and Java have not generally beaten C or C++ WRT either 
performance or memory footprint (meaning an advantage in areas where 
this is important).


or such...

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#10402

On 9/22/2011 1:53 PM, BGB wrote:
> On 9/22/2011 8:28 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
>> C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
>> people):
>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>>
>> Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
>> Objective C is #6 and also rising.
>>
>
> partial possible reasons:
> there are many plain C codebases around, and "in the wild" C++ codebases (solely or dominantly) are not run into nearly as often IME
> (even then, they can be roughly divided into 3 major camps: C-like, Java-like, and "traditional" C++).
>
> Java + C is fairly popular, but Java + C++ is not as much.
> partial possible reason: neither JNI nor JNA provide good direct access to C++, and infact it may work as a hindrance in this case
> (though likely more psychological than practical).
>
> although GCC's CNI is a good idea (allowing a more direct mapping between Java and C++ classes), it has not been embraced by the
> great Sun/Oracle ("Sunacle", as some have called it).
>
> actually, one can wonder if they just don't care about providing a nice native interface, or if they were trying to actively and
> deliberately make it painful to discourage people from using it?...
>
>
> Objective-C has popularity mostly as it is Apples' major language of choice, and Apple has gotten a lot more popular in recent years.
>
>
> also possible:
> C++, Java, and C#, compete mostly for a partly overlapping target area: front-end application development.
>
> C++ is not as popular in systems-programming or back-end libraries (which are more of C's area), although C++ does have an advantage
> that Java and C# are mostly unusable in these areas (write kernel or drivers in Java == no).
>
> however, in terms of ease of use, and providing expansive standardized library functionality, Java and C# have an advantage (for
> example, there is no direct/standardized C++ analogue of AWT/Swing or WinForms or WPF).
>
>
> not that it is all bad news though, as C and C++ are still the top-players in areas where performance is important, as, despite some
> claims, C# and Java have not generally beaten C or C++ WRT either performance or memory footprint (meaning an advantage in areas
> where this is important).
>
>
> or such...

C for embedded systems programming is big, very big.

Lynn

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#10408

On 9/22/2011 12:43 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 9/22/2011 1:53 PM, BGB wrote:
>> On 9/22/2011 8:28 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
>>> C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
>>> people):
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>>>
>>> Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
>>> Objective C is #6 and also rising.
>>>
>>
>> partial possible reasons:
>> there are many plain C codebases around, and "in the wild" C++
>> codebases (solely or dominantly) are not run into nearly as often IME
>> (even then, they can be roughly divided into 3 major camps: C-like,
>> Java-like, and "traditional" C++).
>>
>> Java + C is fairly popular, but Java + C++ is not as much.
>> partial possible reason: neither JNI nor JNA provide good direct
>> access to C++, and infact it may work as a hindrance in this case
>> (though likely more psychological than practical).
>>
>> although GCC's CNI is a good idea (allowing a more direct mapping
>> between Java and C++ classes), it has not been embraced by the
>> great Sun/Oracle ("Sunacle", as some have called it).
>>
>> actually, one can wonder if they just don't care about providing a
>> nice native interface, or if they were trying to actively and
>> deliberately make it painful to discourage people from using it?...
>>
>>
>> Objective-C has popularity mostly as it is Apples' major language of
>> choice, and Apple has gotten a lot more popular in recent years.
>>
>>
>> also possible:
>> C++, Java, and C#, compete mostly for a partly overlapping target
>> area: front-end application development.
>>
>> C++ is not as popular in systems-programming or back-end libraries
>> (which are more of C's area), although C++ does have an advantage
>> that Java and C# are mostly unusable in these areas (write kernel or
>> drivers in Java == no).
>>
>> however, in terms of ease of use, and providing expansive standardized
>> library functionality, Java and C# have an advantage (for
>> example, there is no direct/standardized C++ analogue of AWT/Swing or
>> WinForms or WPF).
>>
>>
>> not that it is all bad news though, as C and C++ are still the
>> top-players in areas where performance is important, as, despite some
>> claims, C# and Java have not generally beaten C or C++ WRT either
>> performance or memory footprint (meaning an advantage in areas
>> where this is important).
>>
>>
>> or such...
>
> C for embedded systems programming is big, very big.
>

this is partly covered by "systems programming", which generally 
includes both embedded systems, and the development of systems-software 
on PC's, which interestingly enough, doesn't tend to look a whole lot 
different at this level (except in very small embedded devices, where 
funkiness in the HW or CPU or lack of RAM or similar may start visibly 
manifesting in the code being written).

I guess it depends some on whether the target is, say, a Z80 with 16 or 
32kB of RAM, vs an ARM chip with several MB (or more) of RAM (and maybe 
with a real/separate OS kernel, vs accessing HW via library calls or 
similar).

in any case, C remains a big player here...

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#10406

On 09/23/11 03:28 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,

Which struggle would that be?


-- 
Ian Collins

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#10409

>> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
>
> Which struggle would that be?

Yeah. And we're still facing the olm mosrepresentation of measured "web 
noise" as "popularity"...

Btw with C++11 just accepted we can expect a peak of noise very soon that 
will make C++ look way more popular -- while in reality I expect at least a 
few years before real support become stable in compilers, and even more for 
real-life projects to build on the new stuff. 

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#10416

On 09/23/11 Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,

On 22 Sep., Ian Collins wrote:
> Which struggle would that be?

Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well. The
popularity of a language is a major factor for the ecosystem that
evolves around a language in the form of libraries, newsgroups, and so
on (not to forget that even the compilers for the language will
improve, if it is an open source compiler).

Personally, I like C++ most, even though I'd like to see some features
in C++ that will never be added. I don't worry if C++ drops from place
two or three to place ten or eleven, but I'd reconsider if C++ dropped
to place fifty.

Regards,
Stuart

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#10421

On Fri, 2011-09-23, Stuart Redmann wrote:
> On 09/23/11 Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
>
> On 22 Sep., Ian Collins wrote:
>> Which struggle would that be?
>
> Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
> manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
> success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
> have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
> programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
> one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well. The
> popularity of a language is a major factor for the ecosystem that
> evolves around a language in the form of libraries, newsgroups, and so
> on (not to forget that even the compilers for the language will
> improve, if it is an open source compiler).

Agree.

> Personally, I like C++ most, even though I'd like to see some features
> in C++ that will never be added. I don't worry if C++ drops from place
> two or three to place ten or eleven, but I'd reconsider if C++ dropped
> to place fifty.

It depends. In my world (some small subsection of the larger
embedded/Unix world) all that matters is if C++ is seen as a serious
alternative to C, or if someone in power decides that some toy
language/proprietary 4GL environment is the future.

Most of the others on any top list are not applicable.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#10425

Stuart Redmann wrote:

> Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
> manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
> success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
> have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
> programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
> one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well. 

I find it doubtful that a ongoing project would suddenly be forced to a 
complete rewrite due to a change in a dubious popularity chart.  One thing 
that comes to mind is the demand for COBOL programmers and the time-honoured 
use of Fortran in highly technical fields. 

On the other hand, the perceived notion of popularity might impact projects 
which are just starting off, but for non-technical (and therefore wrong) 
reasons.  If a large pool of software developers who are skilled with a 
specific programming language is available then recruiters are able to exert 
some economic pressure (taking advantage of an oversupply of programmers) in 
order to pay their prospective developers less.  Nevertheless, scrapping the 
bottom of the proverbial barrel may look good in a human-resource 
perspective (that is, a blind perspective) but it tend to bring a lot of 
problems and efficiency issues, not to mention those caused by the quality 
of the code, when the project goes on and becomes increasingly more complex.


> The
> popularity of a language is a major factor for the ecosystem that
> evolves around a language in the form of libraries, newsgroups, and so
> on (not to forget that even the compilers for the language will
> improve, if it is an open source compiler).

Some people actually care if a specific tool is the right tool for the job, 
and this tends to be the decisive factor in spite of whatever correlation it 
might have with any random perception of popularity.


> Personally, I like C++ most, even though I'd like to see some features
> in C++ that will never be added. I don't worry if C++ drops from place
> two or three to place ten or eleven, but I'd reconsider if C++ dropped
> to place fifty.

Well, that would be a stupid thing to do.  A tool doesn't suddenly become 
better/worse or more/less powerful through a change in a popularity index.  
And considering this TIOBE bullshit, and how it relies on search hits 
(unfiltered?) on youtube to determine which language is more popular than 
others, this would mean that your technical decisions would depend on the 
number of videos any random person uploaded to the site.  And just imagine 
if your technical decisions were influenced by the number of "language X 
sucks ass" videos some 12 year old kid posted on youtube.


Rui Maciel

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#10434

Stuart Redmann wrote:
> > Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
> > manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
> > success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
> > have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
> > programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
> > one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well.

Rui Maciel wrote:
> I find it doubtful that a ongoing project would suddenly be forced to a
> complete rewrite due to a change in a dubious popularity chart.  One thing
> that comes to mind is the demand for COBOL programmers and the time-
> honoured use of Fortran in highly technical fields.

Agreed. One of the largest (and probably most important) projects in
our company is written in Fortran, and there is little to no desire to
switch this project to a different language.

However, the Fortran language seems to lag behind: Other programming
languages have a richer set of features (like C or C++) and a better
"ecosystem" (see my earlier posting). Of course, we could simply
enrich the Fortran language with OO, generics and whatever is standard
for a 4GL.

On the other hand we could just transform our Fortran projects to C or
C++. Apparently Fortran thrives because of its rich libraries, but
they have already been ported to other programming languages.

It's a tough decision.

Rui Maciel wrote:
> On the other hand, the perceived notion of popularity might
> impact projects which are just starting off, but for non-technical
> (and therefore wrong) reasons.  If a large pool of software developers
> who are skilled with a specific programming language is available
> then recruiters are able to exert some economic pressure (taking
> advantage of an oversupply of programmers) in order to pay their
> prospective developers less.  Nevertheless, scrapping the
> bottom of the proverbial barrel may look good in a human-resource
> perspective (that is, a blind perspective) but it tend to bring a lot of
> problems and efficiency issues, not to mention those caused by the quality
> of the code, when the project goes on and becomes increasingly
> more complex.


It is a bad fact that recruiters may have that level of influence. I'm
afraid there is little we can do about this ;-)

[snip]

Regards,
Stuart

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#10423

Lynn McGuire wrote:

> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
> C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
> people):
>     http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
> 
> Java is #1, C is #2.  C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
> Objective C is #6 and also rising.

This index is meaningless. According to them[1], their index is calculated 
the following way:

<quote>
Ratings

The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search 
engines.
</quote>

The search queries are ran in the following sites:
<quote>
Based on these criteria currently the following search engines are used:

    Google: 32%
    Blogger: 32%
    Wikipedia: 16%
    YouTube: 10%
    Yahoo!: 3%
    Bing: 3%
    Baidu: 3%
</blockquote>


So, you are effectively trying to claim that some language is "more popular" 
than other by counting the number of youtube videos which might pop out in a 
search.

So, as it is easy to see, this TIOBE index is bullshit.


Rui Maciel

[1] 
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/tpci_definition.htm

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#10430

On 09/22/2011 05:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
> C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
> people):
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>
> Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
> Objective C is #6 and also rising.
>
> Lynn

Objective C is only used in iMac and iPhone, right?

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#10441

DeMarcus <use_my_alias_here@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
>> Objective C is #6 and also rising.
>
> Objective C is only used in iMac and iPhone, right?

(Hmm, it's just "Mac", right?)

Those seem to be the main users of objective C, though of course there
are objective C compilers / libraries / etc on other systems
(e.g. GNUstep is a free software version of the NeXTStep [etc]
libraries that later became Cocoa on the mac)

-Miles

-- 
Future, n. That period of time in which our affairs prosper, our friends
are true and our happiness is assured.

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#10455

On 2011-9-23 20:12, DeMarcus wrote:
>
> Objective C is only used in iMac and iPhone, right?

Objective C is becoming popular due to the "fashion"
iPhone and iPad.
When iPhone and iPad fade out, OC will be forgotten again.

Usually beginner may choose OC because they may think
it's the only choice.

IMO C++ is quite good supported by XCode and easier
to develop iOS apps, with very little OC to interact
with the SDK.


-- 
WQ

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