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"Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Bulgaria)" by Herb Sutter

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  "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Bulgaria)" by Herb Sutter Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-22 19:37 -0500
    Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Bulgaria)" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-25 08:47 +0000
      Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Bulgaria)" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-06-25 16:48 +0300
        Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-25 14:59 +0000
          Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-06-25 15:37 +0000
            Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-25 15:52 +0000
              Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-25 21:03 +0200
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-06-25 20:49 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-26 08:17 +0000
                  Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-26 15:41 +0200
                    Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-26 16:05 +0000
                    Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-27 12:56 +0800
                      Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-27 10:53 +0200
                        Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-28 15:16 +0800
                          Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-28 17:09 +0200
                            Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-29 01:24 +0800
                              Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-28 21:11 +0200
                      Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-27 12:21 +0000
                        Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-06-27 11:30 -0700
                        Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-28 14:58 +0800
                          Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-28 15:37 +0000
                            Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-29 01:06 +0800
                              Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-06-28 19:10 -0700
                                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-29 07:46 +0000
                              Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-29 07:42 +0000
                                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-29 19:40 +0800
                                  Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-29 16:05 +0000
                                    Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-30 01:59 +0800
                                      Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-30 07:34 +0000
                                        Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-30 21:56 +0800
                                          Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-30 15:42 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-26 16:00 +0000

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#122381 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 14:58:26 +0800
wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> gabbled:
>On Fri, 2025-06-27 at 12:21 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> A multi platform language has no business having something like graphics =
>built
>> in. There are too many variations on different systems and some don't hav=
>e
>> graphics at all. Also unless you release a new version of C++ everytime e=
>g
>> NVidia updates the Cuda functionality then you'll have to use libraries a=
>nyway.
>
>There are various level of 'graphics'.
>The point is a 'C++ graphics' so that a C++ program can draw Shape (as C++ =
>demo
>its OO capability). It would be just like cout, you don't need to worry abo=
>ut
>what the low level stuff is.

"Just draw" the shape where? In the console using text characters? In the
desktop background? In a window? What creates the window for you and what 
properties will it have? 

I'm guessing you've never done graphics programming. You might as well 
suggest C++ has built in sound.

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#122388 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Sat, 2025-06-28 at 15:37 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 14:58:26 +0800
> wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> gabbled:
> > On Fri, 2025-06-27 at 12:21 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> > > A multi platform language has no business having something like graphics =
> > built
> > > in. There are too many variations on different systems and some don't hav=
> > e
> > > graphics at all. Also unless you release a new version of C++ everytime e=
> > g
> > > NVidia updates the Cuda functionality then you'll have to use libraries a=
> > nyway.
> > 
> > There are various level of 'graphics'.
> > The point is a 'C++ graphics' so that a C++ program can draw Shape (as C++ =
> > demo
> > its OO capability). It would be just like cout, you don't need to worry abo=
> > ut
> > what the low level stuff is.
> 
> "Just draw" the shape where? In the console using text characters? In the
> desktop background? In a window? What creates the window for you and what 
> properties will it have? 
> I'm guessing you've never done graphics programming. You might as well 
> suggest C++ has built in sound.

Why not, if a C++ book demonstrated an example:

int main() {
 utter << "Hellow, world";
};

Nope, because "..There are too many variations on different systems and some don't have..."?

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#122402 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On 6/28/2025 10:06 AM, wij wrote:
> On Sat, 2025-06-28 at 15:37 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 14:58:26 +0800
>> wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> gabbled:
>>> On Fri, 2025-06-27 at 12:21 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>> A multi platform language has no business having something like graphics =
>>> built
>>>> in. There are too many variations on different systems and some don't hav=
>>> e
>>>> graphics at all. Also unless you release a new version of C++ everytime e=
>>> g
>>>> NVidia updates the Cuda functionality then you'll have to use libraries a=
>>> nyway.
>>>
>>> There are various level of 'graphics'.
>>> The point is a 'C++ graphics' so that a C++ program can draw Shape (as C++ =
>>> demo
>>> its OO capability). It would be just like cout, you don't need to worry abo=
>>> ut
>>> what the low level stuff is.
>>
>> "Just draw" the shape where? In the console using text characters? In the
>> desktop background? In a window? What creates the window for you and what
>> properties will it have?
>> I'm guessing you've never done graphics programming. You might as well
>> suggest C++ has built in sound.
> 
> Why not, if a C++ book demonstrated an example:
> 
> int main() {
>   utter << "Hellow, world";
> };
> 
> Nope, because "..There are too many variations on different systems and some don't have..."?
> 
> 

Made me think of printf("Hello"), can show rendered glyph's on a 
console? Them be Graphics.... lol. ;^)

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#122404 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Sat, 28 Jun 2025 19:10:19 -0700
"Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wibbled:
>On 6/28/2025 10:06 AM, wij wrote:
>> Nope, because "..There are too many variations on different systems and some
>don't have..."?
>> 
>> 
>
>Made me think of printf("Hello"), can show rendered glyph's on a 
>console? Them be Graphics.... lol. ;^)

Except all desktop OSs have a default text console output. Perhaps the OP would
like to suggest where his supposed shape would be drawn on an X windows 
system. Which server, desktop and window and if its a remote X server what
IP address. Clearly he has zero clue about graphics but just wanted to sound 
smart. Sadly for him it had the opposite effect.

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#122403 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 01:06:48 +0800
wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> wibbled:
>On Sat, 2025-06-28 at 15:37 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> properties will it have?=20
>> I'm guessing you've never done graphics programming. You might as well=
>=20
>> suggest C++ has built in sound.
>
>Why not, if a C++ book demonstrated an example:
>
>int main() {
> utter << "Hellow, world";
>};

Oh, so not just sound but speech synthesis! Obviously trivial to implement,
why don't you go and do it?

>Nope, because "..There are too many variations on different systems and som=
>e don't have..."?

Linux doesn't have a standard built in speech synthesiser. What would you
suggest speaks the words? Or is that a load of having wavey stuff that is
Someone Elses Problem, you just want the praise for coming up with the 
incredibly original idea, right?

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#122405 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Sun, 2025-06-29 at 07:42 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 01:06:48 +0800
> wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> wibbled:
> > On Sat, 2025-06-28 at 15:37 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> > > properties will it have?=20
> > > I'm guessing you've never done graphics programming. You might as well=
> > =20
> > > suggest C++ has built in sound.
> > 
> > Why not, if a C++ book demonstrated an example:
> > 
> > int main() {
> > utter << "Hellow, world";
> > };
> 
> Oh, so not just sound but speech synthesis! Obviously trivial to implement,
> why don't you go and do it?

I had designed and built a sound car. I have all the ability to implement what
I want. But all are not trivial to me.

> > Nope, because "..There are too many variations on different systems and som=
> > e don't have..."?
> 
> Linux doesn't have a standard built in speech synthesiser. What would you
> suggest speaks the words? Or is that a load of having wavey stuff that is
> Someone Elses Problem, you just want the praise for coming up with the 
> incredibly original idea, right?

Speech synthesizer already existed 35 years ago on PC-XT+DOS which only 
equipped with a buzzer (can only produce '1/0' sound).
There are many know-how there. Yes, your doubt is confirmed that you are idiot.

A clue for you. The two-state buzzer can be programmed to simulate analog sound
(bad quality) You know C/C++ does not mean you can really do programming.

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#122409 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 19:40:16 +0800
wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> gabbled:
>On Sun, 2025-06-29 at 07:42 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> Oh, so not just sound but speech synthesis! Obviously trivial to implemen=
>t,
>> why don't you go and do it?
>
>I had designed and built a sound car. I have all the ability to implement w=
>hat
>I want. But all are not trivial to me.

Huh?

>> Linux doesn't have a standard built in speech synthesiser. What would you
>> suggest speaks the words? Or is that a load of having wavey stuff that is
>> Someone Elses Problem, you just want the praise for coming up with the=
>=20
>> incredibly original idea, right?
>
>Speech synthesizer already existed 35 years ago on PC-XT+DOS which only=C2=
>=A0
>equipped with a buzzer (can only produce '1/0' sound).
>There are many know-how there. Yes, your doubt is confirmed that you are id=
>iot.

Speech synthesisers existed in the 70s in the Speak and Spell toy, whats
your point? Its quite clear you don't even understand the problem.

>A clue for you. The two-state buzzer can be programmed to simulate analog s=
>ound
>(bad quality) You know C/C++ does not mean you can really do programming.

"Duh, I can make sound, duh, C++ should just make sound, duh"

Its not 1985 any more idiot with you writing 16 bit real mode assembler
sending I/O to a PC speaker from DOS. You can't just talk to the sound 
hardware direct with Windows, Mac and Linux, it has to do through the OS and 
that requires configuration and setup in the program requiring access, 
something you're apparently completely unaware of. The same applies to 
graphics. Now why don't you go find a time machine, come forward 40 years to
2025 then get yourself a clue.

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#122411 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Sun, 2025-06-29 at 16:05 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2025 19:40:16 +0800
> wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> gabbled:
> > On Sun, 2025-06-29 at 07:42 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> > > Oh, so not just sound but speech synthesis! Obviously trivial to implemen=
> > t,
> > > why don't you go and do it?
> > 
> > I had designed and built a sound car. I have all the ability to implement w=
> > hat
> > I want. But all are not trivial to me.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> > > Linux doesn't have a standard built in speech synthesiser. What would you
> > > suggest speaks the words? Or is that a load of having wavey stuff that is
> > > Someone Elses Problem, you just want the praise for coming up with the=
> > =20
> > > incredibly original idea, right?
> > 
> > Speech synthesizer already existed 35 years ago on PC-XT+DOS which only=C2=
> > =A0
> > equipped with a buzzer (can only produce '1/0' sound).
> > There are many know-how there. Yes, your doubt is confirmed that you are id=
> > iot.
> 
> Speech synthesisers existed in the 70s in the Speak and Spell toy, whats
> your point? Its quite clear you don't even understand the problem.
> 
> > A clue for you. The two-state buzzer can be programmed to simulate analog s=
> > ound
> > (bad quality) You know C/C++ does not mean you can really do programming.
> 
> "Duh, I can make sound, duh, C++ should just make sound, duh"
> 
> Its not 1985 any more idiot with you writing 16 bit real mode assembler
> sending I/O to a PC speaker from DOS. You can't just talk to the sound 
> hardware direct with Windows, Mac and Linux, it has to do through the OS and 
> that requires configuration and setup in the program requiring access, 
> something you're apparently completely unaware of. The same applies to 
> graphics. Now why don't you go find a time machine, come forward 40 years to
> 2025 then get yourself a clue.

I can write a speech synthesizer 'utter', like bellow, to say "Hellow, world".
(Honest, this one would take time for now)

int main() {
 utter << "Hellow, world";
};

I can write a program like below that paint an image and draw a cross.
Most importantly, no graphics library is compiled and needed in the source 
(all source is pretty much what the several lines shown).

int main() {
 Image imgfile(..);
 Display disp(..);
 disp << imgfile;
 disp << "line(100,200,200,300),line(100,300,200,100),..";
}

What you can do? just mouth -> Oh, not in OS1, OS2,...OS100. Or C/C++,Python,C#,
Java,Go,Dust,... have no such thing, non-standard ABC,... Or that need OS/
hardware/BIOS... support,..too complicated... (pretending very knowledgeable). 
Finally, 'we' don't need graphics/sound library in C++ !!!
Whatever reason, it cannot be owing to your ignorance.

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#122412 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 01:59:58 +0800
wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> wibbled:
>On Sun, 2025-06-29 at 16:05 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> something you're apparently completely unaware of. The same applies to=
>=20
>> graphics. Now why don't you go find a time machine, come forward 40 years=
> to
>> 2025 then get yourself a clue.
>
>I can write a speech synthesizer 'utter', like bellow, to say "Hellow, worl=
>d".
>(Honest, this one would take time for now)
>
>int main() {
> utter << "Hellow, world";
>};

So "I could write a library to do speech synthesis" becomes "it should be
built into the language". Right, ok. How would the setup work then, give some
examples?

>I can write a program like below that paint an image and draw a cross.
>Most importantly, no graphics library is compiled and needed in the source=
>=C2=A0
>(all source is pretty much what the several lines shown).
>
>int main() {
> Image imgfile(..);
> Display disp(..);

Oh right, the magic "...", lets not worry about the details yeah? So will your 
version of the compiler come with Xlib built in then? Or maybe Wayland API? 
Do let us know. Also how will your "..." cope with all the different parameters
required for different OS's but yet keep the code portable?

> disp << imgfile;
> disp << "line(100,200,200,300),line(100,300,200,100),..";

A string? Are you sure you actually know any C++?

>What you can do? just mouth -> Oh, not in OS1, OS2,...OS100. Or C/C++,Pytho=
>n,C#,
>Java,Go,Dust,... have no such thing, non-standard ABC,... Or that need OS/
>hardware/BIOS... support,..too complicated... (pretending very knowledgeabl=

Dust?

Re Java , you do realise its an abstracted language and the JVM does all
the interfacing with the OS? 

>e).=20
>Finally, 'we' don't need graphics/sound library in C++ !!!

You said built into the language, not a library.

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#122413 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Mon, 2025-06-30 at 07:34 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 01:59:58 +0800
> wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> wibbled:
> > On Sun, 2025-06-29 at 16:05 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> > > something you're apparently completely unaware of. The same applies to=
> > =20
> > > graphics. Now why don't you go find a time machine, come forward 40 years=
> > to
> > > 2025 then get yourself a clue.
> > 
> > I can write a speech synthesizer 'utter', like bellow, to say "Hellow, worl=
> > d".
> > (Honest, this one would take time for now)
> > 
> > int main() {
> > utter << "Hellow, world";
> > };
> 
> So "I could write a library to do speech synthesis" becomes "it should be
> built into the language". Right, ok. How would the setup work then, give some
> examples?

It looks? I saved too many typing of keyboard.

> > I can write a program like below that paint an image and draw a cross.
> > Most importantly, no graphics library is compiled and needed in the source=
> > =C2=A0
> > (all source is pretty much what the several lines shown).
> > 
> > int main() {
> > Image imgfile(..);
> > Display disp(..);
> 
> Oh right, the magic "...", lets not worry about the details yeah? So will your 
> version of the compiler come with Xlib built in then? Or maybe Wayland API? 
> Do let us know. Also how will your "..." cope with all the different parameters
> required for different OS's but yet keep the code portable?
> > disp << imgfile;
> > disp << "line(100,200,200,300),line(100,300,200,100),..";
> 
> A string? Are you sure you actually know any C++?
> 
> > What you can do? just mouth -> Oh, not in OS1, OS2,...OS100. Or C/C++,Pytho=
> > n,C#,
> > Java,Go,Dust,... have no such thing, non-standard ABC,... Or that need OS/
> > hardware/BIOS... support,..too complicated... (pretending very knowledgeabl=
> 
> Dust?
> 
> Re Java , you do realise its an abstracted language and the JVM does all
> the interfacing with the OS? 
> 
> > e).=20
> > Finally, 'we' don't need graphics/sound library in C++ !!!
> 
> You said built into the language, not a library.

I read the post twice to figure out your post is loser's trolling.
Those who know C++ programming should already get the idea.
I am not wasting my time with idiot. Go home and learn more.

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#122414 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

On Mon, 30 Jun 2025 21:56:41 +0800
wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> wibbled:
>On Mon, 2025-06-30 at 07:34 +0000, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> So "I could write a library to do speech synthesis" becomes "it should be
>> built into the language". Right, ok. How would the setup work then, give =
>some
>> examples?
>
>It looks? I saved too many typing of keyboard.

So you can't. Thanks for playing.

>I read the post twice to figure out your post is loser's trolling.
>Those who know C++ programming should already get the idea.
>I am not wasting my time with idiot. Go home and learn more.

Must be Hypocrite Day again.

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#122358 — Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote at 19:03 this Wednesday (GMT):
[snip]
> You complain about C++ being complex - features like reflection make it 
> /less/ complex in several ways.  It makes it far easier to make your own 
> classes like tuples or variants (the std:: versions don't fit everyone). 
>   There are all sorts of use-cases where reflection will let you write 
> simpler C++ code, or write things only once but have the information 
> available in different forms (enum->string and string->enum being the 
> typical example).

Templates? I really like those.

[snip]
-- 
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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