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copy/pass a va_list to another thread

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  copy/pass a va_list to another thread Christopher <cpisz@austin.rr.com> - 2012-03-07 14:36 -0800
    Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-08 02:04 +0100
      Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Christopher <cpisz@austin.rr.com> - 2012-03-08 11:54 -0800
        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-08 21:41 +0100
          Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Christopher <cpisz@austin.rr.com> - 2012-03-08 13:56 -0800
            OT: Free Usenet Access red floyd <no.spam.here@its.invalid> - 2012-03-08 16:09 -0800
              Re: OT: Free Usenet Access Christopher Pisz <someone@somewhere.net> - 2012-03-09 10:26 -0600
            New Google Groups problems (was Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-03-09 12:27 +0000
            Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Robert Miles <milesrf@Usenet-News.net> - 2012-04-21 23:43 -0500
              XSUsenet.COM  @Jeff-Relf.Me - 2012-04-21 22:12 -0700
          Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-10 05:12 +0900
            Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-10 00:00 +0100
              Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-10 08:40 +0900
                Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-10 08:42 +0900
                MIME (Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-03-10 07:04 +0000
                  Re: MIME (Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread) Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-10 16:56 +0900
                    Re: MIME (Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread) Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 07:37 +0000
                Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-10 10:44 +0100
                  Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-03-10 14:43 +0000
                    Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-10 21:17 +0100
                  Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-11 10:49 +0900
                    Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-03-11 07:11 +0000
                      Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-11 19:03 +0900
                        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-03-11 11:49 +0000
                          Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-11 23:01 +0900
                            Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 18:25 +0100
                            Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-03-11 23:53 +0000
              Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Mike McCarty <mcmccarty@gmail.com> - 2012-03-10 05:47 -0800
                Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-03-10 19:51 +0100
                  Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-10 21:23 +0100
                    Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-03-11 14:36 +0100
                      Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 18:33 +0100
                        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-03-11 20:41 +0100
                          Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 21:49 +0100
                    Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 17:18 +0000
                      Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 18:39 +0100
                        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 18:54 +0000
                        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2012-03-12 19:03 +0100
                Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-11 17:09 +0000
            Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2012-03-11 01:26 +0000
              Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-11 11:18 +0900
                Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2012-03-11 16:41 +0000
        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2012-03-08 23:07 +0000
        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2012-03-08 23:17 -0600
        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Stuart Redmann <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-03-10 05:10 -0800
        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-03-10 05:42 -0800
        Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread Robert Miles <milesrf@Usenet-News.net> - 2012-04-21 23:20 -0500
    Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-08 09:25 -0700

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#14821 — copy/pass a va_list to another thread

Working on a pre-existing interface that I am not allowed to change, which uses a va_list argument. The method takes way too long to execute and is a canidate for splitting off into another thread. However, I am not sure how I can safely copy the va_list without actually processing its real components. The processing into its real components is a good chunk of what is taking too long.

Any ideas on how to safely pass a varibale argument list to another thread to be processed?

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#14822

On 07.03.2012 23:36, Christopher wrote:
> Working on a pre-existing interface that I am not allowed to change,
> which uses a va_list argument. The method takes way too long to execute
> and is a canidate for splitting off into another thread. However, I am
> not sure how I can safely copy the va_list without actually processing
> its real components. The processing into its real components is a good
> chunk of what is taking too long.

If you're talking about a stack frame in the megabytes or gigabytes 
range, then the function (and most likely much more) needs redesign.

Otherwise you have most probably misunderstood something.

For more concrete to-the-point help it is a good idea to copy and paste 
into your Usenet posting working code for a minimal but complete example 
that actually illustrates the problem.


> Any ideas on how to safely pass a varibale argument list to another
> thread to be processed?

You have already stated that copying takes too long.

And you can't pass a reference or pointer to it without letting the 
original thread wait.

So at first glance the problem is insoluble.

However, it is almost certain that you have misunderstood something.

Just post real code instead of a vague and most likely incorrect 
description.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

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#14835

On Wednesday, March 7, 2012 7:04:26 PM UTC-6, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
> You have already stated that copying takes too long.
> 
> And you can't pass a reference or pointer to it without letting the 
> original thread wait.
> 
> So at first glance the problem is insoluble.

Maybe. I am hoping for some boost or C++ standard mechanism, which I haven't heard of yet, that solves this problem that I presume many developers have run across, when dealing with a function that takes a variable argument list parameter.

> Just post real code instead of a vague and most likely incorrect 
> description.

I think you are reading to much into it and want to look at the design for a fix. I don't blame you. I already accept that the design is flawed, the code sucks, and I'd never use a variable argument list in the first place. Such is often life when dealing with other people's real life code and manager's rules and time allotments vs academic examples. Given those constants, it doesn't matter what the context is, but here:

// Creates a database log record
// \param sprintf like message string including placeholders
// \param ... - takes tuples
//              1- string; name of argument
//              2- string; formatting code string
//              3- any type; identified by previous formatting code
// <list of 500 formatting codes and argument types>
void SomeFunction(std::wstring message, ...)   // Cannot change
{
   va_list va;                                 // May change anything here down
   va_start(va, x);

   SomeDataStructure myOutput;    // Contains arguments for a database call
                                  //     to create a log record
                                  //     which is also crappy design
                                  //     with tons of params
                                  //     and encoded, formatted, strings
   
   // 4000 lines of parsing custom format codes and arguments, 
   //      converting to types
   //      using those types to build strings
   //      ala sprintf
   //      With a dump truck of business rules applied to string encoding
   //      AKA long and tedious stuff that I want to do on another thread
   //      Including actually making a call to write to database which is
   //      also time consuming
   //
   //      i.e. This is a logging type method and should return immediatly

   va_end(va);
}

The actual conversion from unknown types into usuable typed objects using format codes in strings is what is taking a long time. I really don't think I mentioned copying as you say. There is no copying yet. I envision copying as a means to pass them to another thread. As obviously I can't give something to another thread from the stack without blocking the first thread or they will no longer be valid. 

The problem itself is how to copy something of unknown type and length from the "stack pointer?" given by va_list, without actually processing the list to find the types first.

performance analysis revealed that the processing of the list, just to extract the types and use them to build the output to make the database call with, took longer than the database call itself!

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#14836

On 08.03.2012 20:54, Christopher wrote:
[snip text]
>
> // Creates a database log record
> // \param sprintf like message string including placeholders
> // \param ... - takes tuples
> //              1- string; name of argument
> //              2- string; formatting code string
> //              3- any type; identified by previous formatting code
> //<list of 500 formatting codes and argument types>
> void SomeFunction(std::wstring message, ...)   // Cannot change
> {
>     va_list va;                                 // May change anything here down
>     va_start(va, x);
>
>     SomeDataStructure myOutput;    // Contains arguments for a database call
>                                    //     to create a log record
>                                    //     which is also crappy design
>                                    //     with tons of params
>                                    //     and encoded, formatted, strings
>
>     // 4000 lines of parsing custom format codes and arguments,
>     //      converting to types
>     //      using those types to build strings
>     //      ala sprintf
>     //      With a dump truck of business rules applied to string encoding
>     //      AKA long and tedious stuff that I want to do on another thread
>     //      Including actually making a call to write to database which is
>     //      also time consuming
>     //
>     //      i.e. This is a logging type method and should return immediatly
>
>     va_end(va);
> }

[snip text]

First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.

It really really sucks.

I see you're posting via Google. They have tried umpteen times to kill 
Usenet. Why they're still bothering to kill a dead horse is beyond me, 
perhaps the Google people doing Google Groups stuff now are just grossly 
technically incompetent and also unaware of history, but anyway, please 
don't post with quoted printable, like, please do not go naked and 
unwashed into a restaurant or, for that matter, bookstore.

That said (phew!), your task, except for error handling, is easy but 
tedious.

You need to parse the format string and retrieve the original argument 
values. Possibly you can get by with just storing a string 
representation of each argument value. Otherwise, a heterogeneous list 
is easy to do in C++, check out boost::variant and boost::any. Pass the 
argument collection etc. to the thread.

Error handling problem: how to notify the calling code, which presumably 
is unaware of the asynchronous nature of the call, of errors and failures.

It might be a Good Idea(TM) to really think about that before embarking 
on the easy but very tedious task outlined above. <g>


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

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#14839

On Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:41:45 PM UTC-6, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
> 
> It really really sucks.
> 
> I see you're posting via Google. They have tried umpteen times to kill 
> Usenet. Why they're still bothering to kill a dead horse is beyond me, 
> perhaps the Google people doing Google Groups stuff now are just grossly 
> technically incompetent and also unaware of history, but anyway, please 
> don't post with quoted printable, like, please do not go naked and 
> unwashed into a restaurant or, for that matter, bookstore.

I apologize as this is inevitably also in the format you spoke of, as I have yet to find a means to access usenet without paying an extra $10/20  a month and see no means of configuring google to not be retarded. I also know little about said format, although I looked it up. I assume it makes jumbled reading on your side that expects ASCII? Is there a known free alternative that you  might suggest?

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#14841 — OT: Free Usenet Access

On 3/8/2012 1:56 PM, Christopher wrote:

>
> I apologize as this is inevitably also in the format you spoke of,
 > as I have yet to find a means to access usenet without paying an
 > extra $10/20  a month and see no means of configuring google to not
 > be retarded. I also know little about said format, although I looked
 > it up. I assume it makes jumbled reading on your side that expects
 > ASCII? Is there a known free alternative that you  might suggest?

Eternal September.  Go to www.eternal-september.org for info.

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#14848 — Re: OT: Free Usenet Access

On 3/8/2012 6:09 PM, red floyd wrote:
> On 3/8/2012 1:56 PM, Christopher wrote:
>
>>
>> I apologize as this is inevitably also in the format you spoke of,
>  > as I have yet to find a means to access usenet without paying an
>  > extra $10/20 a month and see no means of configuring google to not
>  > be retarded. I also know little about said format, although I looked
>  > it up. I assume it makes jumbled reading on your side that expects
>  > ASCII? Is there a known free alternative that you might suggest?
>
> Eternal September. Go to www.eternal-september.org for info.
>
>
>
Thanks Red Floyd! I am now using that with Thunderbird. Hopefully it 
makes my posts more readable :)

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#14847 — New Google Groups problems (was Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread)

On Thu, 2012-03-08, Christopher wrote:
> On Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:41:45 PM UTC-6, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
>> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
>> 
>> It really really sucks.
>> 
>> I see you're posting via Google. They have tried umpteen times to kill 
>> Usenet. Why they're still bothering to kill a dead horse is beyond me, 
>> perhaps the Google people doing Google Groups stuff now are just grossly 
>> technically incompetent and also unaware of history,

Not history -- Usenet conventions are the same today, at least in the
groups I frequent. "Ignorant of the culture they're targeting" is more
like it.

>> but anyway, please 
>> don't post with quoted printable, like, please do not go naked and 
>> unwashed into a restaurant or, for that matter, bookstore.
>
> I apologize as this is inevitably also in the format you spoke of,
> as I have yet to find a means to access usenet without paying an extra
> $10/20 a month and see no means of configuring google to not be
> retarded. I also know little about said format, although I looked it
> up. I assume it makes jumbled reading on your side that expects ASCII?

I assume this is the new new Google Groups interface that they're
rolling out now.

Quoted-printable doesn't seem to create a problem on my side in your
posting; perhaps there was nothing that needed quoting?

What's worse, Christopher: your whole paragraph was just one single
line, 300 characters wide or so. Is that something you can influence?
By manual line breaking or by configuring Google Groups (a checkbox
"don't break Usenet netiquette" perhaps?)

If not, I will have to start ignoring posts from Google Groups, no
matter how interesting. I always disliked when people did that (or
pretended to) because postings from there were not usually less
readable than others[1]. This, however, is just too broken to deal
with.

/Jorgen

[1] Except the threading fiasco which was in effect for a while.
    That was also destructive.

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#15510

On 3/8/2012 3:56 PM, Christopher wrote:
> On Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:41:45 PM UTC-6, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
>> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
>>
>> It really really sucks.
>>
>> I see you're posting via Google. They have tried umpteen times to kill
>> Usenet. Why they're still bothering to kill a dead horse is beyond me,
>> perhaps the Google people doing Google Groups stuff now are just grossly
>> technically incompetent and also unaware of history, but anyway, please
>> don't post with quoted printable, like, please do not go naked and
>> unwashed into a restaurant or, for that matter, bookstore.
>
> I apologize as this is inevitably also in the format you spoke of, as I have yet to find a means to access usenet without paying an extra $10/20  a month and see no means of configuring google to not be retarded. I also know little about said format, although I looked it up. I assume it makes jumbled reading on your side that expects ASCII? Is there a known free alternative that you  might suggest?

Have you tried Eternal September?

http://www.eternal-september.org/

Free Usenet access, text only.  However, it required that you
use a non-ATT email address to sign up.  A free Gmail or
Hotmail account should be sufficient, even if it isn't your
primary email account.

Have you tried individual.net?

http://www.news.individual.net/

Rather cheap, also text-only.

Both also filter out most spam.

Your newsreader should have settings to decide if you use
Quoted Printable or not.

As for Google Groups, see if starting here makes it a little
less retarded:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!overview

Note that some browsers are not good at handling URLs that
contain a # character.  You may then need to click on My
Groups, if you have already subscribed to a list of
newsgroups.

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#15511 — XSUsenet.COM 

<PRE>
« The first free Usenet supplier in The Netherlands »
« Lifetime [1 mega⋅bit/second] Usenet »
« 25 giga⋅byte monthly limit »

« competitively priced [100 mega⋅bit/second] package »

« 600 days retention. No IP retention. [2.5 peta⋅byte] storage »
« Every day this amount grows by more then 9 terabytes. »

« Search over 500 million files and
  download anything with the ease of a single click. »
  -- XSUsenet.COM

I prefer "newsRead.Glorb.COM:119" (unfiltered version)
because it's an INN server (INN servers are the fastest/most⋅reliable),
it doesn't drop « Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=UTF-8 » posts and
it doesn't carry the ( pipe clogging, header munging ) binary groups.
[ When I want binaries, I link to them, I don't put'em in the body ]

"Individual.NET" (€10/year) is good, but Glorb ($10/year) is better
because, unlike Indi, it lets me post ⋅Basic⋅ HTML* to any group.
[ *: a lone PRE tag, for example, nothing more ]

For posting/uploading, I use Glorb or a Readnews.COM reseller like 
Usenet-News.NET, BlockNews.NET, UsenetMonster.COM, Panix.COM, etc.

"News.US.Usenet-News.NET:119" is 2 dollars for ⋅life⋅
and "euNews.BlockNews.NET:119" is 3 dollars for ⋅life⋅.

I read and post only plain⋅text ( or ⋅Simple⋅ HTML ),
so a few bucks ( for a few gigs ) lasts a life⋅time.
Technically, this isn't "free", but it's damn close. 

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#14853

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> writes:
> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
>
> It really really sucks.

Why?

Are there people out there still using newsreaders from 1987...?

-miles

-- 
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're
just making him madder and madder." -- Homer Simpson

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#14859

On 09.03.2012 21:12, Miles Bader wrote:
> "Alf P. Steinbach"<alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>  writes:
>> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
>>
>> It really really sucks.
>
> Why?
>
> Are there people out there still using newsreaders from 1987...?

On the contrary, quoted printable was designed to be displayable by 
really old software and transmittable over really old networks, software 
and networks unable to handle 8-bit character codes (i.e., using only 7 
bits per character).

But there are people using e.g. Thunderbird as newsreader, and as of 
2012 Thunderbird treats a quoted printable paragraph as one long single 
line.

So you were wrong about the implicit contention that quoted printable is 
anything modern (it isn't, it's for really old stuff, archaic stuff), 
and you were wrong newsreaders that don't handle it well being old (the 
latest version of Thunderbird is not very old).

However, that ungood treatment of this archaic 7-bit format in one of 
the few surviving newsreaders (Thunderbird) is just one example of how 
quoted printable really really sucks.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

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#14860

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> writes:
>>> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
>>>
>>> It really really sucks.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Are there people out there still using newsreaders from 1987...?
>
> On the contrary, quoted printable was designed to be displayable by
> really old software and transmittable over really old networks,
> software and networks unable to handle 8-bit character codes (i.e.,
> using only 7 bits per character).

Quoted-printable is part of MIME, and any decent modern mail/news
reader supports MIME (including thunderbird, if my googling is
correct).  [In the 1980s MIME didn't exist, of course, and widespread
adoption is more a late-90s thing.]

You're probably correct that quoted-printable is often _unnecessary_
with modern infrastructure, but that has nothing to do with the level
of support for MIME (which obviously addresses many more issues than
making content 7-bit safe), and thus with the level of support for
quoted-printable.  Whether or not it's necessary, quoted-printable
should still work fine.

7-bit links: olde thing.  MIME: newish thing.

> But there are people using e.g. Thunderbird as newsreader, and as of
> 2012 Thunderbird treats a quoted printable paragraph as one long
> single line.

Quoted-printable is a _transfer encoding_, and shouldn't affect the way
the article content is displayed by your newsreader.... and indeed,
looking at the article you're complaining about, the problem isn't with
quoted-printable at all, it's that the original article doesn't have
any newlines in its paragraphs.

So your anger should really be addressed at the fact that the sender's
software didn't wrap lines, not that it used quoted-printable to encode
those long lines.

Here:  as a test, I'll try to make sure my newsreader uses
quoted-printable, and you can tell me if you have problems reading it
or not.  My lines are properly wrapped.

-miles

-- 
「寒いね」と話しかければ「寒いね」と答える人のいるあったかさ [俵万智]

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#14861

p.s.: my attempt to force quoted-printable didn't work ... :[

(my newsreader has a "preview encoded form" command which claimed it
was going to use QP, but obviously it wasn't accurate... oh well)

-miles

-- 
Politics, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of
principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.

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#14862 — MIME (Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread)

On Fri, 2012-03-09, Miles Bader wrote:
> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
>>>>
>>>> It really really sucks.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Are there people out there still using newsreaders from 1987...?
>>
>> On the contrary, quoted printable was designed to be displayable by
>> really old software and transmittable over really old networks,
>> software and networks unable to handle 8-bit character codes (i.e.,
>> using only 7 bits per character).
>
> Quoted-printable is part of MIME, and any decent modern mail/news
> reader supports MIME (including thunderbird, if my googling is
> correct).  [In the 1980s MIME didn't exist, of course, and widespread
> adoption is more a late-90s thing.]
>
> You're probably correct that quoted-printable is often _unnecessary_
> with modern infrastructure, but that has nothing to do with the level
> of support for MIME (which obviously addresses many more issues than
> making content 7-bit safe), and thus with the level of support for
> quoted-printable.  Whether or not it's necessary, quoted-printable
> should still work fine.
>
> 7-bit links: olde thing.  MIME: newish thing.

MIME over (what may be) 7-bit links: quoted-printable.

Real life is a bit more complicated than this. The NetNews RFCs
weren't updated for many years. Between 1987 and 2005, there was no
standard for NetNews messages using MIME. So as far as I understand
it, there were more or less two camps:

- Stick to the RFCs for compatibility.
- Let's go crazy with everything that MIME allows for mail,
  including HTML, images, OpenPGP signatures ...

Most serious posters chose the first option -- supplemented with Henry
Spencer's "Son of 1036" RFC draft, which also codifies things like
line lengths, ">" for quoting, "Re:" for responses and "-- " for
signature delimiter.

That's why I restrict my postings to ASCII, even though that means
misspelling my name. (In the now mostly dead .se part of Usenet the
convention was to violate the RFCs by sending 8-bit Latin-1, not
necessarily with any MIME info.)

The new set of RFCs (see http://tools.ietf.org/wg/usefor/) seem to
allow most of MIME in NetNews postings. They have
draft-ietf-usefor-useage-01.txt which seem to recommend 8-bit whenever
possible. I seem to recall that earlier drafts tried to nudge everyone
into using 8-bit UTF-8, but that USEFOR couldn't reach an agreement on
that. (MIME predates UTF-8.)

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#14863 — Re: MIME (Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread)

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
> Most serious posters

What on earth is a "serious poster"...?

-miles

-- 
Alone, adj. In bad company.

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#14880 — Re: MIME (Re: copy/pass a va_list to another thread)

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>> Most serious posters
>
> What on earth is a "serious poster"...?
>
> -miles

http://lemurking.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/someone-talked.jpg

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#14864

On 10.03.2012 00:40, Miles Bader wrote:
> "Alf P. Steinbach"<alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com>  writes:
>>>> First, PLEASE DO NOT POST WITH QUOTED PRINTABLE FORMAT.
>>>>
>>>> It really really sucks.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Are there people out there still using newsreaders from 1987...?
>>
>> On the contrary, quoted printable was designed to be displayable by
>> really old software and transmittable over really old networks,
>> software and networks unable to handle 8-bit character codes (i.e.,
>> using only 7 bits per character).
>
> Quoted-printable is part of MIME, and any decent modern mail/news
> reader supports MIME (including thunderbird, if my googling is
> correct).  [In the 1980s MIME didn't exist, of course, and widespread
> adoption is more a late-90s thing.]
>
> You're probably correct that quoted-printable is often _unnecessary_
> with modern infrastructure, but that has nothing to do with the level
> of support for MIME (which obviously addresses many more issues than
> making content 7-bit safe), and thus with the level of support for
> quoted-printable.  Whether or not it's necessary, quoted-printable
> should still work fine.
>
> 7-bit links: olde thing.  MIME: newish thing.
>
>> But there are people using e.g. Thunderbird as newsreader, and as of
>> 2012 Thunderbird treats a quoted printable paragraph as one long
>> single line.
>
> Quoted-printable is a _transfer encoding_, and shouldn't affect the way
> the article content is displayed by your newsreader.... and indeed,
> looking at the article you're complaining about, the problem isn't with
> quoted-printable at all, it's that the original article doesn't have
> any newlines in its paragraphs.

That is incorrect.


> So your anger

That is ad hominem (a personal attack).


> should really be addressed at the fact that the sender's
> software didn't wrap lines, not that it used quoted-printable to encode
> those long lines.

That is dumb.


> Here:  as a test, I'll try to make sure my newsreader uses
> quoted-printable, and you can tell me if you have problems reading it
> or not.  My lines are properly wrapped.

You are posting with text/plain, not quoted printable, and your 
paragraphs are not paragraphs but individual lines.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

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#14869

On Sat, 2012-03-10, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
> On 10.03.2012 00:40, Miles Bader wrote:
...
>> Quoted-printable is a _transfer encoding_, and shouldn't affect the way
>> the article content is displayed by your newsreader.... and indeed,
>> looking at the article you're complaining about, the problem isn't with
>> quoted-printable at all, it's that the original article doesn't have
>> any newlines in its paragraphs.
>
> That is incorrect.

How? There may be other problems with the posting
<7509868.1455.1331236446852.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjd19>
but the overlong lines was the immediate problem I saw. Perhaps your reader
fixes such things for you?

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#14872

On 10.03.2012 15:43, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Sat, 2012-03-10, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
>> On 10.03.2012 00:40, Miles Bader wrote:
> ...
>>> Quoted-printable is a _transfer encoding_, and shouldn't affect the way
>>> the article content is displayed by your newsreader.... and indeed,
>>> looking at the article you're complaining about, the problem isn't with
>>> quoted-printable at all, it's that the original article doesn't have
>>> any newlines in its paragraphs.
>>
>> That is incorrect.
>
> How? There may be other problems with the posting
> <7509868.1455.1331236446852.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjd19>
> but the overlong lines was the immediate problem I saw. Perhaps your reader
> fixes such things for you?

The posting you're reading now doesn't have any newlines in its 
paragraphs (after decoding, which presumably is what's meant above).

That is not a problem.

I'm pretty sure that your slrn newsreader renders this in a reasonable 
way, as opposed to the Quoted Printable postings earlier in this thread.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

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