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C++ vs Pascal

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  C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 20:02 +0800
    Re: C++ vs Pascal gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 04:12 -0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 21:15 +0800
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 22:26 +0800
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-29 08:42 -0800
          Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 01:32 +0800
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Andy Champ <no.way@nospam.invalid> - 2012-02-29 21:48 +0000
          Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 08:02 -0700
            Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 08:04 -0700
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Mike McCarty <mcmccarty@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 06:26 -0800
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 22:28 +0800
        Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-29 08:49 -0800
          Re: C++ vs Pascal Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-02-29 19:56 +0100
          Re: C++ vs Pascal Quint Rankid <qbr567@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 10:31 -0800
            Re: C++ vs Pascal Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-29 21:25 +0000
              Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-01 05:04 -0800
                Re: C++ vs Pascal gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 06:29 -0800
                  Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 23:07 +0800
                  Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-02 00:27 -0800
            Re: C++ vs Pascal Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-01 05:03 -0800
              Re: C++ vs Pascal Mike McCarty <mcmccarty@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 06:54 -0800
                Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-02 00:41 -0800
                  Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 09:41 -0700
                Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-02 23:24 +0800
                  Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-03 06:40 -0800
                    Re: C++ vs Pascal glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-03-03 20:57 +0000
                      Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 15:19 -0700
                        Re: C++ vs Pascal glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-03-03 22:52 +0000
                          Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 17:12 -0700
              Re: C++ vs Pascal Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2012-03-02 09:55 +0900
              Re: C++ vs Pascal Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-02 11:03 +0000
                Re: C++ vs Pascal nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com - 2012-03-02 05:01 -0800
            Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 08:56 -0700
      Re: C++ vs Pascal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-03-03 07:49 -0700
    Re: C++ vs Pascal Quint Rankid <qbr567@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 10:20 -0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 02:26 +0800
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-02-29 21:36 +0000
      Re: C++ vs Pascal "Asger Joergensen" <Junk@Asger-P.dk> - 2012-02-29 23:24 +0000
    Re: C++ vs Pascal Donkey Hottie <donkey@fredriksson.dy.fi> - 2012-03-01 00:02 +0200
      Re: C++ vs Pascal Brian Drummond <brian@shapes.demon.co.uk> - 2012-02-29 23:50 +0000

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#14609 — C++ vs Pascal

Are schools and universities in the States still teaching Pascal?

Isn't C++ as good as Pascal?

-- 
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#14610

On Feb 29, 12:02 pm, Man-wai Chang <toylet.toy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are schools and universities in the States still teaching Pascal?

I'm sure some still are.

> Isn't C++ as good as Pascal?

As a first language for didactic purposes?  I think C, C++ and Java
are all equally lousy.  Pascal is distinctly better, Python better
again.  YMMV

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#14611

>> Are schools and universities in the States still teaching Pascal?
> I'm sure some still are.
> As a first language for didactic purposes?  I think C, C++ and Java
> are all equally lousy.  Pascal is distinctly better, Python better
> again.  YMMV

But Pascal has no practical value at all. Besides, learning to tame a 
devil is more important than believing in a "good" tool. :)

-- 
   @~@   You have the right to remain silence.
  / v \  Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora 15 i686)  Linux 3.2.6
   ^ ^   21:12:01 up 5 days 8:09 0 users load average: 0.00 0.01 0.05
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
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#14613

On 29/02/12 9:15 PM, Man-wai Chang wrote:
>>> Are schools and universities in the States still teaching Pascal?
>> I'm sure some still are.
>> As a first language for didactic purposes? I think C, C++ and Java
>> are all equally lousy. Pascal is distinctly better, Python better
>> again. YMMV
>
> But Pascal has no practical value at all. Besides, learning to tame a
> devil is more important than believing in a "good" tool. :)
>

Good and ethical programming, to be exact, is a practice and discipline, 
NOT a tool! It's the programmer that matters, not the tool!!! :)

-- 
   @~@   You have the right to remain silence.
  / v \  Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora 15 i686)  Linux 3.2.6
   ^ ^   22:22:01 up 5 days 9:19 0 users load average: 0.00 0.01 0.05
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa

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#14615

On Feb 29, 1:15 pm, Man-wai Chang <toylet.toy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> Are schools and universities in the States still teaching Pascal?
>
> > I'm sure some still are.
> > As a first language for didactic purposes?  I think C, C++ and Java
> > are all equally lousy.  Pascal is distinctly better, Python better
> > again.  YMMV
>
> But Pascal has no practical value at all. Besides, learning to tame a
> devil is more important than believing in a "good" tool. :)

few things have /no/ practical value. I think if Pascal helps people
to learn to program then it has shown that it has a practical value.
It's very constraints encourage a clean programming style.

Taming a devil can be a dis-spiriting process. Let people solve easy
problems first then go on to learning harder ones. "The first journey
begins with but a single step"

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#14618

> Taming a devil can be a dis-spiriting process. Let people solve easy
> problems first then go on to learning harder ones. "The first journey
> begins with but a single step"

How about letting them know about the Dark Side first, then let them 
find their favorite tool? :)

-- 
   @~@   You have the right to remain silence.
  / v \  Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora 15 i686)  Linux 3.2.6
   ^ ^   01:29:01 up 5 days 12:26 0 users load average: 0.01 0.04 0.05
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
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#14626

On 29/02/2012 13:15, Man-wai Chang wrote:
> But Pascal has no practical value at all. Besides, learning to tame a
> devil is more important than believing in a "good" tool. :)

It's wrong to say it has no value.  I used to work on a Pascal compiler 
that was written in Pascal...

But mostly it's a simplified teaching language.  You can show beginners 
how to do things without teaching them bad habits, and they can produce 
simple programs quite quickly.

It may be that there are better things now; I'm not in teaching.  My son 
learned Java as a first language.

Andy

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#14716

On 2/29/2012 2:48 PM, Andy Champ wrote:
> On 29/02/2012 13:15, Man-wai Chang wrote:
>> But Pascal has no practical value at all. Besides, learning to tame a
>> devil is more important than believing in a "good" tool. :)
>
> It's wrong to say it has no value. I used to work on a Pascal compiler
> that was written in Pascal...
>
> But mostly it's a simplified teaching language. You can show beginners
> how to do things without teaching them bad habits, and they can produce
> simple programs quite quickly.
>
> It may be that there are better things now; I'm not in teaching. My son
> learned Java as a first language.
>

kind of funny is I started getting into programming a little while 
before Java came out (I started messing with a lot of this stuff 
sometime around 3rd grade IIRC).

some-odd years later, amid its time of huge hype, I already knew C, and 
messed around with Java, but didn't really like what I saw:
it was very painful/awkward to use, and slow as hell...

they have since added a number of usability-improving features (inner 
and anonymous classes, "import static", ...), and made Java much faster, 
but I still find it kind of awkward and lame.


granted, I did recently go and look back at some code (in C) I had 
written long ago (back when I was in high-school, ~ 12 years ago now), 
observed that the quality was actually fairly poor by my current standards.

in many areas, a lot of the same code remains intact, albeit often in 
heavily-modified forms.


sadly though, much time has gone by and little notable has happened...

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#14717

On 3/3/2012 8:02 AM, BGB wrote:
> On 2/29/2012 2:48 PM, Andy Champ wrote:
>> On 29/02/2012 13:15, Man-wai Chang wrote:
>>> But Pascal has no practical value at all. Besides, learning to tame a
>>> devil is more important than believing in a "good" tool. :)
>>
>> It's wrong to say it has no value. I used to work on a Pascal compiler
>> that was written in Pascal...
>>
>> But mostly it's a simplified teaching language. You can show beginners
>> how to do things without teaching them bad habits, and they can produce
>> simple programs quite quickly.
>>
>> It may be that there are better things now; I'm not in teaching. My son
>> learned Java as a first language.
>>
>
> kind of funny is I started getting into programming a little while
> before Java came out (I started messing with a lot of this stuff
> sometime around 3rd grade IIRC).
>
> some-odd years later, amid its time of huge hype, I already knew C, and
> messed around with Java, but didn't really like what I saw:
> it was very painful/awkward to use, and slow as hell...
>
> they have since added a number of usability-improving features (inner
> and anonymous classes, "import static", ...), and made Java much faster,
> but I still find it kind of awkward and lame.
>
>
> granted, I did recently go and look back at some code (in C) I had
> written long ago (back when I was in high-school, ~ 12 years ago now),
> observed that the quality was actually fairly poor by my current standards.
>

side note: the code was from 12 years ago. I finished high-school ~ 9 
years ago.


> in many areas, a lot of the same code remains intact, albeit often in
> heavily-modified forms.
>
>
> sadly though, much time has gone by and little notable has happened...
>

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#14612

On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 6:12:09 AM UTC-6, gwowen wrote:
> As a first language for didactic purposes?  I think C, C++ and Java
> are all equally lousy.  Pascal is distinctly better, Python better
> again.  YMMV

Pascal is the second language I ever learned, after BASIC (at age ~14).  

Pascal is also the second _worst_ language I ever learned, after BASIC.

I was never so happy as I was the day I found C and knew I would never have to go back.  Today, I think I would almost rather program in BASIC than in Pascal.

As you say, YMMV.

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#14614

> Pascal is the second language I ever learned, after BASIC (at age ~14).
> Pascal is also the second _worst_ language I ever learned, after BASIC.
> I was never so happy as I was the day I found C and knew I would never have to go back.  Today, I think I would almost rather program in BASIC than in Pascal.
>
> As you say, YMMV.

Because we still have Visual Basic .Net now. You can really tell Window$ 
to do things your way!

Where is the standard Pascal now, after Delphi? :)


-- 
   @~@   You have the right to remain silence.
  / v \  Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora 15 i686)  Linux 3.2.6
   ^ ^   22:22:01 up 5 days 9:19 0 users load average: 0.00 0.01 0.05
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
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#14616

On Feb 29, 2:26 pm, Mike McCarty <mcmcca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 6:12:09 AM UTC-6, gwowen wrote:
> > As a first language for didactic purposes?  I think C, C++ and Java
> > are all equally lousy.  Pascal is distinctly better, Python better
> > again.  YMMV
>
> Pascal is the second language I ever learned, after BASIC (at age ~14).
>
> Pascal is also the second _worst_ language I ever learned, after BASIC.

Richie (I think) wrote "Why Pascal is Not My Fovourite Language".
Straight ISO-Standard Pascal was a bit of a git. But most Pascal's had
extensions that made them bearable (strings!). DEC Pascal, various Mac
pascals and Turbo were all ok- though different!

> I was never so happy as I was the day I found C and knew I would never have to go back.

C looked like line noise when i first saw it (but I've seen perl since
then) and all those headers were sure confusing!

> Today, I think I would almost rather program in BASIC than in Pascal.

gak!

> As you say, YMMV.

indeed. I'd point people at Python for a beginners language now,
though part of me thinks Strong Typeing would be good for 'em.

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#14621

Op 29-Feb-12 17:49, Nick Keighley schreef:
> On Feb 29, 2:26 pm, Mike McCarty<mcmcca...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 6:12:09 AM UTC-6, gwowen wrote:
>>> As a first language for didactic purposes?  I think C, C++ and Java
>>> are all equally lousy.  Pascal is distinctly better, Python better
>>> again.  YMMV
>>
>> Pascal is the second language I ever learned, after BASIC (at age ~14).
>>
>> Pascal is also the second _worst_ language I ever learned, after BASIC.
>
> Richie (I think) wrote "Why Pascal is Not My Fovourite Language".

The other one (Kernighan):
http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html

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#14622

On Feb 29, 11:49 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> indeed. I'd point people at Python for a beginners language now,
> though part of me thinks Strong Typeing would be good for 'em.

Maybe some other things would be good for them too.
http://www.codingthewheel.com/game-dev/john-carmack-script-interpreters-considered-harmful

I'm not trying to start a language flame war, honestly. I'll let this
guy do it for me. ;) http://xkcd.com/353/

Python has some interesting features, but I tend to think that some of
that might be difficult for beginners.  For example, I agree with you
that strong typing is a good thing.

If Python is "good", whatever that means, then why isn't Lisp,
"better"? http://xkcd.com/224/

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#14624

On Wed, 2012-02-29, Quint Rankid wrote:
> On Feb 29, 11:49 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> indeed. I'd point people at Python for a beginners language now,
>> though part of me thinks Strong Typeing would be good for 'em.
>
> Maybe some other things would be good for them too.
> http://www.codingthewheel.com/game-dev/john-carmack-script-interpreters-considered-harmful

Pretty misleading URL. The article boils down to

    "... scripting languages weren't really designed for large-scale
    development efforts involving millions of lines of code."

which I suspect many c.l.c++ readers would agree with.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#14646

On Feb 29, 9:25 pm, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+n...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-02-29, Quint Rankid wrote:
> > On Feb 29, 11:49 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> indeed. I'd point people at Python for a beginners language now,
> >> though part of me thinks Strong Typeing would be good for 'em.
>
> > Maybe some other things would be good for them too.
> >http://www.codingthewheel.com/game-dev/john-carmack-script-interprete...
>
> Pretty misleading URL. The article boils down to
>
>     "... scripting languages weren't really designed for large-scale
>     development efforts involving millions of lines of code."
>
> which I suspect many c.l.c++ readers would agree with.

must things entitled "X is evil" are nonsense

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#14650

On Mar 1, 1:04 pm, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> must things entitled "X is evil" are nonsense

'"X is evil" considered harmful' ? ;)

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#14654

On 01/03/12 10:29 PM, gwowen wrote:
> On Mar 1, 1:04 pm, Nick Keighley<nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> must things entitled "X is evil" are nonsense
>
> '"X is evil" considered harmful' ? ;)

I agree having to manage memory allocation and data typing yourself 
isn't really evil, but inconvenient only... :)

-- 
   @~@   You have the right to remain silence.
  / v \  Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora 15 i686)  Linux 3.2.6
   ^ ^   23:06:01 up 6 days 10:03 0 users load average: 0.00 0.01 0.05
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa

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#14676

On Thursday, March 1, 2012 2:29:55 PM UTC, gwowen wrote:
> On Mar 1, 1:04 pm, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > must things entitled "X is evil" are nonsense
> 
> '"X is evil" considered harmful' ? ;)

indeed!

:-)

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#14645

On Feb 29, 6:31 pm, Quint Rankid <qbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 29, 11:49 am, Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > indeed. I'd point people at Python for a beginners language now,
> > though part of me thinks Strong Typeing would be good for 'em.
>
> Maybe some other things would be good for them too.http://www.codingthewheel.com/game-dev/john-carmack-script-interprete...
>
> I'm not trying to start a language flame war, honestly. I'll let this
> guy do it for me. ;)http://xkcd.com/353/
>
> Python has some interesting features, but I tend to think that some of
> that might be difficult for beginners.  For example, I agree with you
> that strong typing is a good thing.
>
> If Python is "good", whatever that means, then why isn't Lisp,
> "better"?http://xkcd.com/224/

I'm-not-starting-a-language-war-but
     Lisp has:-
       - unusual syntax
       - it's a very big langauge
       - little out-of-the-box support for modern programming (GUIs,
web, etc.)

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