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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #123018
| From | Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, comp.lang.c++, comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state |
| Date | 2025-11-19 04:52 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <20251118204801.981@kylheku.com> (permalink) |
| References | (25 earlier) <10fj6er$1uu0r$1@dont-email.me> <20251118184604.702@kylheku.com> <10fjc9o$201kv$2@dont-email.me> <10fjh6t$2115o$2@dont-email.me> <10fji1q$21859$1@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 2025-11-19, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/18/2025 10:31 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2025-11-19, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/18/2025 8:53 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-11-19, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/18/2025 7:01 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-11-18, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/18/2025 3:21 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-18, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If you ask a decider to determine if my
>>>>>>>>> sister's name is "Sally" and I don't tell
>>>>>>>>> it who I am then the information contained
>>>>>>>>> in the input is insufficient. This does not
>>>>>>>>> in any way limit computation itself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem is that UTM(D) can work out the fact that
>>>>>>>> D halts. Why is it that UTM knows that D's sister's
>>>>>>>> name is Sally, but H does not?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> UTM(D) is answering a different question.
>>>>>>> (a) It is not providing any answer at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, of course, by "UTM" we mean a /decider/ that purely simulates:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bool UTM(ptr P) {
>>>>>> sim S = sim_create(P);
>>>>>> sim_step_exhaustively(S);
>>>>>> return true;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All deciders applied to D are tasked with answering exactly the same
>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pretending that a different question was asked is nonproductive;
>>>>>> the answer will be interpreted to the original question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the information needed to answer is positively contained in D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is just too complex relative to H.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What The F does UTM decide when DD calls UTM(DD)?
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't happen; DD calls HHH(DD).
>>>>
>>>> A diagonal functon set against UTM, call it DDUTM,
>>>> cannot be decided by UTM(DDUTM).
>>>>
>>>> That call simply does not return.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, and the other one does return proving the
>>> whole point that I have been making for three
>>> years that everyone (besides Ben) was too damned
>>> dishonest to acknowledge has been true all along.
>>
>> What "other one"? Is that referring to HHH(DD)?
>>
>> HHH(DD) returns; UTM(DDUTM) does not return.
>>
>> That's four functions; HHH isn't UTM; DD isn't DDUTM.
>>
>> HHH and DDUTM are unrelated; UTM and DD are unrelated.
>>
>
> void DDD()
> {
> HHH(DDD);
> return;
> }
>
> A simulating termination analyzer that must
> abort the interpretation of the above ASCII
> string to prevent its own non-termination
> has different behavior than a simulating
> termination analyzer that need not abort
> its interpretation of the above exact same
> ASCII string.
1. Up to that abort point, UTM(DDD) and HHH(DDD) conduct an
absolutely identical simulation. The only difference is
that the simulation continues under UTM, and is abandoned
under HHH.
2. This is not a difference attributable to DDD. DDD is the same in
both cases. Not continuing the simulation fo DDD doesn't redefine what
DDD is. It is not possible to redefine what DDD is; it is the
agreed-upon procedure above.
--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
Back to comp.lang.c++ | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-06 14:48 -0600
How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 19:38 -0600
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-12 02:13 +0000
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 20:33 -0600
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 21:05 -0600
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 21:45 -0600
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-12 05:52 +0000
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 23:59 -0600
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-12 06:13 +0000
Re: How pathological self-reference is confused with undecidability olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-12 06:50 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 20:41 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-12 09:11 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-12 20:30 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-12 21:35 -0500
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-13 14:22 -0600
Weasel word double talk excuses =--- AKA Liars olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-18 15:57 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-18 21:07 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-19 04:30 +0000
DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-18 22:45 -0600
Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-19 04:52 +0000
Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-18 23:08 -0600
Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-19 00:14 -0500
Re: DDD simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-19 05:23 +0000
Glossary of names of my simulating termination analyzer HHH(DD) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-23 16:29 -0600
polcott agrees the Kaz is a damned liar --- DD simulated by HHH olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-22 07:22 -0600
Re: polcott agrees the Kaz is a damned liar --- DD simulated by HHH Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-22 17:51 +0000
Re: polcott agrees the Kaz is a damned liar --- DD simulated by HHH olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-22 12:06 -0600
polcott agrees the Kaz is a damned liar --- DD simulated by HHH olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-22 07:33 -0600
Re: polcott agrees the Kaz is a damned liar --- DD simulated by HHH Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-22 17:56 +0000
Dangerous Precipice that could end all life --- DD simulated by HHH olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-22 13:29 -0600
Re: Dangerous Precipice that could end all life --- DD simulated by HHH olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-22 23:02 -0600
Re: Dangerous Precipice that could end all life --- DD simulated by HHH Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-23 05:23 +0000
Re: Dangerous Precipice that could end all life --- DD simulated by HHH olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-23 14:53 -0600
Re: Dangerous Precipice that could end all life --- DD simulated by HHH "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-23 13:32 -0800
Re: Dangerous Precipice that could end all life --- DD simulated by HHH Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-24 02:44 +0000
DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-23 21:15 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-24 16:32 +0000
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 10:45 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2025-11-24 19:45 +0100
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 12:08 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-24 19:22 +0000
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 14:20 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-24 22:31 +0000
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2025-11-24 17:23 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-11-25 05:10 +0000
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 14:15 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 17:21 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 17:19 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 16:15 -0800
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 16:25 -0800
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-25 01:39 +0000
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2025-11-24 17:24 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-25 01:42 +0000
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-24 18:33 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-25 13:35 -0600
Re: DD simulated by HHH and DD simulated by HHH1 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-25 20:27 +0000
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-11-25 16:20 +0100
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-25 09:47 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-11-25 16:50 +0100
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-25 10:09 -0600
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-25 17:33 +0000
Re: D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt state Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-25 11:37 -0500
Olcott is provably correct --- no one can correctly refute this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 19:54 -0600
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