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Re: Small web protocols / alternative protocols

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  Re: Small web protocols / alternative protocols yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-04-02 07:21 +0042
    Re: smolnet (was: Small web protocols / alternative protocols) Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-02 16:04 +0200
      Re: smolnet yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-04-02 15:48 +0042
        Re: smolnet Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-02 17:55 +0200
          Re: smolnet yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-04-02 17:10 +0042
            Re: smolnet Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-02 18:42 +0200
              Re: smolnet Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-02 19:54 +0200
                Re: smolnet yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-04-02 19:35 +0042
                  Re: smolnet Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-02 21:38 +0200
                    Re: smolnet yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-04-02 20:38 +0042
                      Re: smolnet Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-03 18:46 +0200
                        Re: smolnet yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-04-03 19:27 +0042
                          Re: smolnet Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-03 22:14 +0200
                            Re: smolnet yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-04-04 13:33 +0042
                              Re: smolnet Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> - 2024-04-04 15:44 +0200

#116 — Re: Small web protocols / alternative protocols

yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> writes:

> I'm not especially a Smolnet fan I just want back the diversity of the
> old internet days.  Mono-cultures kill evolution.

For not trashing comp.infosystems.gemini too much, I'll switch to
<comp.infosystems> for non gemini-only topics.

_o/"

-- 
I do not bite, I just want to play.

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#119 — Re: smolnet (was: Small web protocols / alternative protocols)

yeti wrote:

> yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> writes:
> 
> > I'm not especially a Smolnet fan I just want back the diversity of
> > the old internet days.  Mono-cultures kill evolution.
> 
> For not trashing comp.infosystems.gemini too much, I'll switch to
> <comp.infosystems> for non gemini-only topics.
> 
> _o/"
>
 
If you don't mind I changed the topic, because I am interested
for ingredients to form (a) smolnet(s), consisting of different
protocols, where users can stay in contact with each other, while
having a Gemini capsule, for example and then can be reached via
Bitmessage (and alternative to Usenet and email) and can transfer
files, chat etc., while not using the big players.

https://bitmessage.org

I mention Bitmessage, because it is also a small Community and cannot
scale as Usenet or email, but Bitmessage allows one to create chans,
private or public and has also an email Gateway, if people like to
communicate outside of Bitmessage or like to receive emails to their
Bitmessage account.

Bitmessage chans can be seen as an alternative to Usenet groups
and everyone can create chans.

What I have not yet figured out is a simple option for file transfer,
without setting up a VPS server, same goes for chat. Maybe Onionshare
could be used.

-- 
Regards
Stefan


 

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#120 — Re: smolnet

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:

> If you don't mind I changed the topic,

No problem.

> because I am interested for ingredients to form (a) smolnet(s),
> consisting of different protocols, where users can stay in contact
> with each other, while having a Gemini capsule, for example and then
> can be reached via Bitmessage (and alternative to Usenet and email)
> and can transfer files, chat etc., while not using the big players.

I think we weed a lightweight overlay network/mesh and therein SMTP
without all the new antispam measures would be an easy to set up
service.  NNTP would allow many:may communication, even as a backend
for forums and wikis unless something better would show up.

> What I have not yet figured out is a simple option for file transfer,
> without setting up a VPS server, same goes for chat. Maybe Onionshare
> could be used.

Hmmm... SCP/SFTP over Tor wouldn't be too hard and if ever an own
overlay network shows up, it hopefully wont be a problem there too.
SCP/SFTP automagically works over Tor if the local SSH config allows it:

| (yeti@kumari:6)~$ sftp defiant.swarm
| Connected to defiant.swarm.
| sftp> _

Here .swarm addresses are SSH aliases to .onion addresses.


*** some few minutes of elevator music ***


Loosely related: I'll soon be homeless!

- When Tor switches to Rust, I'll ditch it.

- (C++-)I2P is an even bigger heavyweight in CPU load than Tor.

- Yggdrasil and other overlay networks seem to prefer Go, Rust or even
  JS and often look like "The source is the protocol's RFC!"?

- TINC-VPN needs per endpoint configuration (one keypair per
  connection), same for UUCP.  So both don't fit my dream of an open
  network/mesh.

Until a nice alternative to Tor surfaces, I'll better get used to be
homeless soon, at least when it comes to the question of hidden
services.


TL;DR:  <biiig> Sigh! </biiig>

-- 
I do not bite, I just want to play.

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#121 — Re: smolnet

yeti wrote:

> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:
> 
> > If you don't mind I changed the topic,
> 
> No problem.
> 
> > because I am interested for ingredients to form (a) smolnet(s),
> > consisting of different protocols, where users can stay in contact
> > with each other, while having a Gemini capsule, for example and then
> > can be reached via Bitmessage (and alternative to Usenet and email)
> > and can transfer files, chat etc., while not using the big players.
> 
> I think we weed a lightweight overlay network/mesh and therein SMTP
> without all the new antispam measures would be an easy to set up
> service.  NNTP would allow many:may communication, even as a backend
> for forums and wikis unless something better would show up.

Maybe good old UUCP could be used for email, like in the past, and
Usenet too. Thus allowing people to run it from home, with the
help of free services like no-ip.com etc.?
> 
> > What I have not yet figured out is a simple option for file
> > transfer, without setting up a VPS server, same goes for chat.
> > Maybe Onionshare could be used.
> 
> Hmmm... SCP/SFTP over Tor wouldn't be too hard and if ever an own
> overlay network shows up, it hopefully wont be a problem there too.
> SCP/SFTP automagically works over Tor if the local SSH config allows
> it:
> 
> | (yeti@kumari:6)~$ sftp defiant.swarm
> | Connected to defiant.swarm.
> | sftp> _
> 
> Here .swarm addresses are SSH aliases to .onion addresses.

Ah ok. 
 
> 
> *** some few minutes of elevator music ***
> 
> 
> Loosely related: I'll soon be homeless!
> 
> - When Tor switches to Rust, I'll ditch it.

Oh ... :-(
 
> - (C++-)I2P is an even bigger heavyweight in CPU load than Tor.
> 
> - Yggdrasil and other overlay networks seem to prefer Go, Rust or even
>   JS and often look like "The source is the protocol's RFC!"?
> 
> - TINC-VPN needs per endpoint configuration (one keypair per
>   connection), same for UUCP.  So both don't fit my dream of an open
>   network/mesh.
> 
> Until a nice alternative to Tor surfaces, I'll better get used to be
> homeless soon, at least when it comes to the question of hidden
> services.

Do you know why the Tor devs are swithing to Rust, after all the years?

Do they think they will have lesser bugs in the code ...?!

-- 
Regards
Stefan

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#122 — Re: smolnet

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:

> yeti wrote:
>
> Maybe good old UUCP could be used for email, like in the past, and
> Usenet too. Thus allowing people to run it from home, with the
> help of free services like no-ip.com etc.?

UUCP isn't really P2P unless you configure each login for every peer.
Classic UUCP relied a lot on other's servers as hops between sender and
recipient.  There is a config option for unknown systems, but I cannot
guess how to use it.  In contrast to anonymous UUCP one would need to
know whom to reply to and that then again would need to set up that
connection.  That still looks like config hell in a P2P case to me.

Plain SMTP over some encrypted mesh would be far easier.  That mesh just
has to be found.

> Do you know why the Tor devs are swithing to Rust, after all the years?
>
> Do they think they will have lesser bugs in the code ...?!

They declare the C version being unmaintainable and praise Rust now.

-- 
I do not bite, I just want to play.

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#123 — Re: smolnet

yeti wrote:

> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:
> 
> > yeti wrote:
> >
> > Maybe good old UUCP could be used for email, like in the past, and
> > Usenet too. Thus allowing people to run it from home, with the
> > help of free services like no-ip.com etc.?
> 
> UUCP isn't really P2P unless you configure each login for every peer.
> Classic UUCP relied a lot on other's servers as hops between sender
> and recipient.  There is a config option for unknown systems, but I
> cannot guess how to use it.  In contrast to anonymous UUCP one would
> need to know whom to reply to and that then again would need to set
> up that connection.  That still looks like config hell in a P2P case
> to me.

Ah, understand. So this is then no option, I guess. At least I do not
like to fiddle around to much, in order to get batches at evenings.
 
> Plain SMTP over some encrypted mesh would be far easier.  That mesh
> just has to be found.

I remember that when they had a catastrophe in Italy that they set-up
Mesh Networks to communicate, because local Internet was down IIRC.

I wonder how they communicated over the mesh ...
 
> > Do you know why the Tor devs are swithing to Rust, after all the
> > years?
> >
> > Do they think they will have lesser bugs in the code ...?!
> 
> They declare the C version being unmaintainable and praise Rust now.

Ah ja.

-- 
Regards
Stefan 

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#124 — Re: smolnet

Stefan Claas wrote:

> I wonder how they communicated over the mesh ...

I just ask AI and here is an IMHO very interesting
article (in German language).

https://nordvpn.com/de/blog/dateien-teilen-mit-meshnet/

-- 
Regards
Stefan

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#125 — Re: smolnet

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:

> Stefan Claas wrote:
>
>> I wonder how they communicated over the mesh ...
>
> I just ask AI and here is an IMHO very interesting
> article (in German language).
>
> https://nordvpn.com/de/blog/dateien-teilen-mit-meshnet/

That may be a solution for generation "voluntary Android electronic
ankle bracelet" and in emergency cases where those are the dominant
species of working IT left.

When I think of mesh, I mean ...

- Open-Mesh » batman-adv
  <https://www.open-mesh.org/projects/batman-adv/wiki>

- 802.11s
  <https://oldwiki.archive.openwrt.org/doc/howto/mesh.80211s>

- Tinc-VPS's mesh feature
  <https://www.tinc-vpn.org/>

But those all seem to be an administrative nightmare in a global scale.

-- 
I do not bite, I just want to play.

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#127 — Re: smolnet

yeti wrote:

> When I think of mesh, I mean ...
> 
> - Open-Mesh » batman-adv
>   <https://www.open-mesh.org/projects/batman-adv/wiki>
> 
> - 802.11s
>   <https://oldwiki.archive.openwrt.org/doc/howto/mesh.80211s>
> 
> - Tinc-VPS's mesh feature
>   <https://www.tinc-vpn.org/>
> 
> But those all seem to be an administrative nightmare in a global
> scale.

Yes, a couple of years ago I was also interested in Mesh Networks,
but figured out if I buy a second router, placed at the Window, there
is no nearby neighbor wich I can connect to, even if for example
"Freifunk" is used in my area. I can not install a large antenna,
on top of the roof, of our house.

-- 
Regards
Stefan 

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#129 — Re: smolnet

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:

> I can not install a large antenna, on top of the roof, of our house.

Meshs aren't limited to wireless transports.  The self organising and
self reorganising (healing?) aspect help in the wired context too.

-- 
I do not bite, I just want to play.

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#130 — Re: smolnet

yeti wrote:

> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:
> 
> > I can not install a large antenna, on top of the roof, of our house.
> 
> Meshs aren't limited to wireless transports.  The self organising and
> self reorganising (healing?) aspect help in the wired context too.
> 

Ah, ok. I have added to my capsule my Telefax Nr. I think nowadays
a Fax machine can count as smolnet device too ... :-) I may add
my De-Mail address too, because for us Germans, De-Mail is a cool
smolnet too. :-D

-- 
Regards
Stefan

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#131 — Re: smolnet

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:

> yeti wrote:
>
>> Meshs aren't limited to wireless transports.  The self organising and
>> self reorganising (healing?) aspect help in the wired context too.
>
> Ah, ok. I have added to my capsule my Telefax Nr.

Oh!  I kept my last two old modems[0], but it just would have looked too
ridiculous to have a modem bigger than the computer it is attached to
and even the ZyXEL's powersupply would have been bigger than a Pi in an
own case.  And even the younger 56k modem is bigger than a Pi too, but
in that case not the modems wall-wart too.

So I ordered two newer small USB modems and then my neighbours were not
in the mood for UUCP[2].  So after a few test runs the newer ones went
back into their boxes.  :-/

> I think nowadays a Fax machine can count as smolnet device too ... :-)

Matt Parker mentioned "post-FAX era" and "alternative FAX" in one of his
videos[3].  Possibly the best "post-FAX era" jokes so far.

I really don't miss the paper->scanner->printer->paper era.  But looking
what we can do with modems today may be fun, especially where our
landlines now typically are flat-rates.

> I may add my De-Mail address too, because for us Germans, De-Mail is a
> cool smolnet too. :-D

Nope.  I never had one of those and that probably won't change within
this incarnation.

____________

0: From end of my FidoNet phase to 1st Internet PPP dial-up.

1: USR5637 - 56K* USB CONTROLLER DIAL-UP EXTERNAL FAX MODEM WITH VOICE
   <https://www.usr.com/products/56k-dialup-modem/usr5637/>

2: Vier Posts ab ...
   Re: Wer steht denn da auf meiner langen Leitung?
   <https://hive-project.de/board/viewtopic.php?p=14797#p14797>

   Dann abgezweigter Thread...
   Fido, UUCP, Citadel und Co...
   <https://hive-project.de/board/viewtopic.php?t=1339>

3: Back to the Fax Machine
   <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4xOtyUgtZ8>

-- 
I do not bite, I just want to play.

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#132 — Re: smolnet

yeti wrote:

> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:
> 
> > yeti wrote:
> >
> >> Meshs aren't limited to wireless transports.  The self organising
> >> and self reorganising (healing?) aspect help in the wired context
> >> too.
> >
> > Ah, ok. I have added to my capsule my Telefax Nr.
> 
> Oh!  I kept my last two old modems[0], but it just would have looked
> too ridiculous to have a modem bigger than the computer it is
> attached to and even the ZyXEL's powersupply would have been bigger
> than a Pi in an own case.  And even the younger 56k modem is bigger
> than a Pi too, but in that case not the modems wall-wart too.
> 
> So I ordered two newer small USB modems and then my neighbours were
> not in the mood for UUCP[2].  So after a few test runs the newer ones
> went back into their boxes.  :-/

Well, I ordered a USR 56K Fax modem about two years ago and have not
used it yet. Maybe we can cook up something cool with them ...

I guess I also need a new Raspi, because mine broke long time ago, when
I used him for mining e-Mark.

https://deutsche-emark.org/de/?l=1
 
> > I think nowadays a Fax machine can count as smolnet device too ...
> > :-)
> 
> Matt Parker mentioned "post-FAX era" and "alternative FAX" in one of
> his videos[3].  Possibly the best "post-FAX era" jokes so far.
> 
> I really don't miss the paper->scanner->printer->paper era.  But
> looking what we can do with modems today may be fun, especially where
> our landlines now typically are flat-rates.

Flat-rates are a good argument to explore what can be done with modems
nowadays. The initial goal was to use my little GPD MicroPC with the
Faxmodem, when traveling, but I figured out also that a Surf-Stick for
(encrypted) SMS (sending/receiving) is pretty cool, with
modem-manager-gui, under Linux.

-- 
Regards
Stefan
 

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#133 — Re: smolnet

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:

> Well, I ordered a USR 56K Fax modem about two years ago and have not
> used it yet. Maybe we can cook up something cool with them ...

I've no fast and simple idea what to try first and I'm not in the mood
for security nightmare.  Something based on allowing a login, maybe with
a BBS like thing instead of a shell, would be the easiest thing to try.

If it were isolated, even a login would not be a too big risk.  Not
giving that system access to the LAN would help and accessing it via
null-modem cable from a neighbour should be a safe enough one way
street.  That'd be no problem to implement via CP210x or FT232
USB<->LVTTL adapters if a real serial is missing.  Well and why not let
others "dial in" via an access point on that one too?

That all has to ferment a while...

Here I can restrict the modem port to dial-in only on the phone router
side and use a different port for dial-out via a 2nd modem connected to
other systems.  Having the world conditioned to only call me via mobile,
there would be no conflict with the telephone.

> I guess I also need a new Raspi, because mine broke long time ago, when
> I used him for mining e-Mark.

No matter which ones, I've stability problems with all of them (Pi0...4)
and that despite permuting a variety of power supplies and OSes (NetBSD,
Debian, RasPIan).  Sometimes they run for months, sometimes they crash
several times per day and I see no pattern in all this.  I hope to get
an idea for a simple UPS to exclude a noisy power line as the cause of
this.

> Flat-rates are a good argument to explore what can be done with modems
> nowadays. The initial goal was to use my little GPD MicroPC with the
> Faxmodem, when traveling, but I figured out also that a Surf-Stick for
> (encrypted) SMS (sending/receiving) is pretty cool, with
> modem-manager-gui, under Linux.

I've two UMTS modems in the form of an USB stick and as a PCMCIA card
and currently no ideas for them.  If the other modem ideas turn out to
be nice, adding dial-in via 2G or better may be cheap.  Or would data
volume count for the called side of a connection too?

-- 
[T^@.]*$fsg;("?GV>Da-_o8-BBI128P]S^S+[$/fL[b.{lH.>m]kb3Efa<7j+7i8cv6!kAK
43@zi0vReA2,_k%X"|0zXQ!xk}M)u?^$[l.*CYP Sr3C^ygj58A$}ta&$UDnJ-,]Ph%J\oXh
Lw|P5ol>iJWn+eLBxwqfw\EMi
NO CARRIER

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#134 — Re: smolnet

yeti wrote:

> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> writes:
> 
> > Well, I ordered a USR 56K Fax modem about two years ago and have not
> > used it yet. Maybe we can cook up something cool with them ...
> 
> I've no fast and simple idea what to try first and I'm not in the mood
> for security nightmare.  Something based on allowing a login, maybe
> with a BBS like thing instead of a shell, would be the easiest thing
> to try.

Me neither. I will google a bit about this topic and should I come up
with something, I will let you know.

> Here I can restrict the modem port to dial-in only on the phone router
> side and use a different port for dial-out via a 2nd modem connected
> to other systems.  Having the world conditioned to only call me via
> mobile, there would be no conflict with the telephone.

I could use my second telephone (Fax) number, to not interfere with
my regular phone number. This would mean the that a terminal emulator
for BBS login could be used, I guess.

> > Flat-rates are a good argument to explore what can be done with
> > modems nowadays. The initial goal was to use my little GPD MicroPC
> > with the Faxmodem, when traveling, but I figured out also that a
> > Surf-Stick for (encrypted) SMS (sending/receiving) is pretty cool,
> > with modem-manager-gui, under Linux.
> 
> I've two UMTS modems in the form of an USB stick and as a PCMCIA card
> and currently no ideas for them.  If the other modem ideas turn out to
> be nice, adding dial-in via 2G or better may be cheap.  Or would data
> volume count for the called side of a connection too?

Good question! And if, I guess, once the volume is used, slower
transfer rates will apply.

-- 
Regards
Stefan 

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