Re: information theory?

From	Richard Outerbridge <outer@interlog.com>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design, sci.crypt, comp.dsp, sci.math, sci.physics
Subject	Re: information theory?
Organization	(none)
References	(6 earlier) <E8udnR4LarelIizTnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@earthlink.com> <9829d32f-ff08-490f-a3f9-9ef3d027e524@s10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> <4eb3b1c6$0$13394$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <I9Psq.13644$Mg.12196@newsfe13.iad> <bd7a5bf2-f8be-4dde-82bd-0b8b7d14655c@v31g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
Date	2011-12-22 03:08 -0500
Message-ID	<outer-F1579E.03085822122011@us.Ngroups.NET> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 5 groups.

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In article 
<bd7a5bf2-f8be-4dde-82bd-0b8b7d14655c@v31g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
 RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Nov 4, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > He estimated music contains 40 bits/second entropy.
> > > How close is MP3 to that?
> >
> > >___________________________________
> > >I doubt surprised Shannon said that, and if he did its
> > >somewhere between meaningless and wrong.
> >
> > >CD quality mp3s are roughly equivalent to 178 kbps,
> > >over 4,000 times his estimate. But then you can
> > >encode a lot of sounds that most people would not
> > >consider music. And it stereo, so you can halve it
> > > if Shannon was talking about mono.
> >
> > Have you never seen sheet music? That is what
> > Shannon was estimating - the bitrate for describing
> > music in the abstract.
> > There are a finite number of notes, durations and
> > amplitudes in a classical composition.
> 
> I suspect that's the case.
> 
> > I suspect 40 bits/sec is still far too tight,
> > but a midi stream using a high end reconstruction
> > codec represents a pretty good
> > example of what is possible by way of compression
> > for *music* as opposed to voice or a random noise
> > stream.
> >
> > > To get a smaller figure for music, you have to
> > > define what subsets of sounds are music. Lots of luck.
> 
> Not so hard, if you analyze samples of what we label 'music'.
> 
> > I think that may have been his intention although
> > I don't recall seeing the 40 bit/s number
> > As I said if he did anything I think he was estimating
> > the information content of music in the already
> > concise form of an orchestral score.
> 
> That appears to be the case.
> 
> > I reckon at a bare minimum about 7 to the note, 8 to
> > amplitude, 6 duration, 5 to the instrument - and it
> > is already obvious that you cannot encode more than a
> > single note per second at this bitrate.
> 
> You fail to account for the essential concept
> of correlation.
> 
> > Can anyone provide a citation to this alleged paper
> > on music bitrate?
> 
> 
> I found the reference in John Pierce's book.
> It's not attributed to Shannon.  My boner.
> He claims a humans can absorb information,
> e.g. reading or music, at 40 bits/second.
> He also cites a paper where it's claimed that
> sheet music contains 2.5 bits entropy per note.
> This supports the MIDI model, as opposed to
> digitization of a recording.  In that case,
> what is the bit rate?  Though the question of
> chords arises, with much redundancy there.
> 
> It also raises the possibility that recorded
> music might be adequately represented by a
> MIDI stream.

IIRC, it's interesting to note that most modern media
compression codecs rely not so much upon what the raw
data can absolutely do without as they do upon what the
human ear or eye can be fooled by: they leave out what
you "cannot" hear or "cannot" see.  Really, this is
nothing new: all screens of any sort are really just
optical illusions of one sort or another.  The codecs
are just leveraging the limitations of the wiring of
the human brain.

outer

Thread

information theory? RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-10-31 20:55 -0700
  Re: information theory? eric.jacobsen@ieee.org (Eric Jacobsen) - 2011-11-01 04:57 +0000
    Re: information theory? Chris <chris.santoro@gmail.com> - 2011-11-01 05:58 -0700
      Re: information theory? RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-01 10:29 -0700
        Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-01 11:13 -0700
          Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-01 14:39 -0700
        Re: information theory? robert bristow-johnson <rbj@audioimagination.com> - 2011-11-01 16:04 -0400
          OT: information theory? Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> - 2011-11-01 18:06 -0400
          Re: information theory? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-11-01 22:46 +0000
        Re: information theory? "BJACOBY@teranews.com" <benj@iwaynet.net> - 2011-11-01 22:38 -0500
          Re: information theory? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2011-11-02 17:06 -0500
            Re: information theory? "steveu" <steveu@n_o_s_p_a_m.coppice.org> - 2011-11-02 19:41 -0500
            Re: information theory? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-11-03 06:58 -0500
              Re: information theory? "GO-HERE .NL" <gdewilde@gmail.com> - 2011-11-03 08:57 -0700
          Re: information theory? Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2011-11-02 19:44 -0500
            Re: information theory? "Christopher J. Henrich" <chenrich@monmouth.com> - 2011-11-02 22:40 -0400
              Re: information theory? Lofty Goat <rlwatkins@gmail.com> - 2011-11-03 23:21 -0500
        Re: information theory? Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2011-11-02 08:47 +0000
          Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2011-11-02 09:48 +0000
            Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2011-11-02 10:02 +0000
              Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2011-11-02 16:46 +0000
              Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) Bernd Jendrissek <bernd.jendrissek@gmail.com> - 2011-11-02 15:04 -0700
            Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) David Eather <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2011-11-03 04:00 +1000
              Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) unruh <unruh@physics.ubc.ca> - 2011-11-02 19:05 +0000
            Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) "J. Clarke" <jclarkeusenet@cox.net> - 2011-11-24 08:42 -0500
              Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) Richard Outerbridge <outer@interlog.com> - 2011-11-25 01:37 -0500
                Re: information theory? (copyright question followup) Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2011-11-25 11:37 -0600
          Re: information theory? RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-02 11:38 -0700
            Re: information theory? Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2011-11-03 08:51 +0000
        Re: information theory? Chris <chris.santoro@gmail.com> - 2011-11-02 08:02 -0700
          Re: information theory? robert bristow-johnson <rbj@audioimagination.com> - 2011-11-02 09:38 -0700
          Re: information theory? RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-02 11:51 -0700
            Re: information theory? VWWall <vwall@large.invalid> - 2011-11-02 15:08 -0700
              Re: information theory? Richard Outerbridge <outer@interlog.com> - 2011-11-02 19:59 -0400
                Re: information theory? Frederick Williams <freddywilliams@btinternet.com> - 2011-11-04 20:41 +0000
                Re: information theory? "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> - 2011-11-04 16:59 -0500
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-04 15:28 -0700
                Re: information theory? Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> - 2011-11-04 21:09 -0400
                Re: information theory? ggr@nope.ucsd.edu (Greg Rose) - 2011-11-05 02:11 +0000
                Re: information theory? Frederick Williams <freddywilliams@btinternet.com> - 2011-11-05 11:53 +0000
                Re: information theory? "Mike Terry" <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2011-11-05 17:32 +0000
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-06 18:41 -0800
              Re: information theory? RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-03 21:54 -0700
                Re: information theory? "BJACOBY@teranews.com" <benj@iwaynet.net> - 2011-11-04 03:42 -0500
                Re: information theory? "Peter Webb" <webbfamily@optusnetDIESPAMDIE.com.au> - 2011-11-04 20:33 +1100
                Re: information theory? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-04 05:10 -0500
                Re: information theory? kym@kymhorsell.com - 2011-11-04 10:50 +0000
                Re: information theory? "Peter Webb" <webbfamily@optusnetDIESPAMDIE.com.au> - 2011-11-04 22:14 +1100
                Re: information theory? "Jesse F. Hughes" <jesse@phiwumbda.org> - 2011-11-04 09:13 -0400
                Re: information theory? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2011-11-04 10:32 -0400
                Re: information theory? "Androcles" <Headmaster@Hogwarts.physics.October.2011> - 2011-11-04 18:02 +0000
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-07 15:54 -0800
                Re: information theory? VWWall <vwall@large.invalid> - 2011-11-04 09:50 -0700
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-04 12:41 -0700
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-04 13:40 -0700
                Re: information theory? "Androcles" <Headmaster@Hogwarts.physics.October.2011> - 2011-11-04 11:35 +0000
                Re: information theory? Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2011-11-04 10:31 +0000
                Re: information theory? "Peter Webb" <webbfamily@optusnetDIESPAMDIE.com.au> - 2011-11-04 21:51 +1100
                Re: information theory? "BJACOBY@teranews.com" <benj@iwaynet.net> - 2011-11-04 14:18 -0500
                Re: information theory? Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> - 2011-11-04 15:56 -0400
                Re: information theory? RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-21 17:49 -0800
                Re: information theory? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2011-12-21 20:07 -0600
                Re: information theory? Richard Outerbridge <outer@interlog.com> - 2011-12-22 03:08 -0500
                Re: information theory? Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-22 08:30 +0000
                Re: information theory? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2011-12-22 10:12 +0000
                Re: information theory? "Peter Webb" <r.peter.webbbbb@gmail.com> - 2011-12-22 21:14 +1100
                Re: information theory? "Androcles" <Headmaster@Hogwarts.physics.October.2011> - 2011-11-04 11:00 +0000
                Re: information theory? Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@OrSPaMcle.COM> - 2011-11-04 09:45 +0000
                Re: information theory? unruh <unruh@physics.ubc.ca> - 2011-11-04 19:05 +0000
              Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-06 17:11 -0800
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-07 06:23 -0800
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-07 11:29 -0800
                Re: information theory? jim <retnuh2011@gmail.com> - 2011-11-08 04:41 -0800
                Re: information theory? "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2011-11-08 13:46 -0500
            Re: information theory? "BJACOBY@teranews.com" <benj@iwaynet.net> - 2011-11-03 03:32 -0500
            Re: information theory? Chris <chris.santoro@gmail.com> - 2011-11-03 08:39 -0700
            Re: information theory? Chris <chris.santoro@gmail.com> - 2011-11-03 08:28 -0700

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