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That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom]

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  That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] John Mayson <john@mayson.us> - 2011-04-22 12:39 -0500
    Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Gary" <bogus-email@hotmail.com> - 2011-04-22 20:30 -0400
      Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> - 2011-04-23 03:26 +0000
        Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] John Mayson <john@mayson.us> - 2011-04-23 14:02 -0500
        Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Gary" <bogus-email@hotmail.com> - 2011-04-24 09:29 -0400
          Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> - 2011-04-24 23:48 +0000
          Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2011-04-24 19:20 +0000
            Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Richard Powderhill" <richard_powderhill@btopenworld.com> - 2011-04-26 09:36 +0100
          Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] tlvp <tPlOvUpBErLeLsEs@hotmail.com> - 2011-04-24 15:50 -0400
          Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] David Clayton <dcstarbox-usenet@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-04-25 09:22 +1000
        Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Greg Monti" <gmonti@mindspring.com> - 2011-04-26 22:53 -0400
      Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] David Clayton <dcstarbox-usenet@yahoo.com.au> - 2011-04-23 16:11 +1000
      Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Harold Hallikainen" <harold@hallikainen.com> - 2011-04-23 11:18 -0700
    Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] Joseph Singer <joeofseattle@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-23 08:23 -0700
      Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] John Mayson <john@mayson.us> - 2011-04-23 23:45 -0500
    Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2011-04-23 00:39 +0000
      Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2011-04-24 19:38 +0000
        Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] "John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> - 2011-04-25 14:49 +0000
    Re: That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom] kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2011-04-24 15:48 -0400

#424 — That pesky plus signs and mobile phones [telecom]

At home we have AT&T and recently had T-Mobile for our cell service.
I noticed on all phones, regardless of manufacturer, incoming SMS and
calls without names assigned displayed in the +1xxxyyyzzzz format.
Specifically the number is prefaced with the +1.

I have a Verizon phone at work.  I only see xxx-yyy-zzzz.  What's
more, I cannot call internationally by using the (+).  The phone
doesn't recognize that.  I have to use 011.  My attempt to call
+60-4-yyy-zzzz resulted in a call to Vancouver.

Is this difference due to GSM versus CDMA?

-- 
John Mayson <john@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA

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#431

"John Mayson"  wrote in message 
news:BANLkTimU5r1_rxw4fPP06fHr-i2k+SR0Lg@mail.gmail.com...
>
> What's more, I cannot call internationally by using the (+).
> The phone doesn't recognize that.  I have to use 011.  My
> attempt to call +60-4-yyy-zzzz resulted in a call to Vancouver.

My understanding is that "+" means "dial the international access code 
appropriate to your location, then this number."  Thus, in the USA (if not 
all of the NANPA), "+" translates to "011."  If you're calling an 
international number from a phone in China, "+" must be replaced with their 
international dialing prefix (which appears to be "00").

Note that numbers starting with the "+" have the country code as the very 
next digit(s), which is what follows the international prefix when dialing. 
The NANPA is unique in that the country code, matches our internal long 
distance prefix ("1"), further confusing people who are not used to 
international dialing.

The intelligence of using the "+" notation is that it assumes the caller can 
figure out the appropriate international prefix and dial it before dialing 
the rest of the number.  Before cellphones, you could not find a "+" on the 
keypad (or dial, for that matter), so if you thought about it you might 
actually try and figure out what it meant.

It appears you've run across one smart cellphone that lets you enter the "+" 
character and it translates it as an international number.  However, another 
model appears to not have that feature, so translated "+604" as area code 
604; so you got Vancouver instead of Malaysia.

Bottom line, it is best to know the international access code and dial it 
directly and not rely on the phone translating "+" for you.

-Gary

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#435

>My understanding is that "+" means "dial the international access code 
>appropriate to your location, then this number."

No, it's part of the GSM standard.  The whole point is that you can put
numbers in your phone's address book, and they will work regardless of
where in the world you use your phone.  If I use my US phone in the UK,
do I dial calls with 011 or 00?  I have no idea, I dial +.

I'm sort of surprised that VZ phones don't support them, but it does
appear to be a defect in their implementation of CDMA.  Since CDMA
phones work hardly anywhere outside NANP land, it's less of a
practical issue.

R's,
John

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#442

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 10:26 PM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>My understanding is that "+" means "dial the international access code
>>appropriate to your location, then this number."
>
> No, it's part of the GSM standard. � The whole point is that you can 
put
> numbers in your phone's address book, and they will work regardless of
> where in the world you use your phone. � If I use my US phone in the 
UK,
> do I dial calls with 011 or 00? � I have no idea, I dial +.

That was my question, I just didn't ask it very well.  :-)

> I'm sort of surprised that VZ phones don't support them, but it does
> appear to be a defect in their implementation of CDMA. � Since CDMA
> phones work hardly anywhere outside NANP land, it's less of a
> practical issue.

Except when a dullard like me hand enters a dozen international
numbers using the (+) into his CDMA phone and ends up calling Canada
instead of Malaysia.  :-)

-- 
John Mayson <john@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA

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#444

I wrote:
>My understanding is that "+" means "dial the international access code
>appropriate to your location, then this number."

"John Levine"  responded in message 
news:20110423032646.68899.qmail@joyce.lan...
>
> No, it's part of the GSM standard.  The whole point is that you can put
> numbers in your phone's address book, and they will work regardless of
> where in the world you use your phone.  If I use my US phone in the UK,
> do I dial calls with 011 or 00?  I have no idea, I dial +.

Cool!  That's a bit of dialing information I wasn't aware of.  It certainly 
makes sense for mobile phones designed for a "Global" standard.  I'm 
assuming you can still dial the international access code, if you choose.

How do you enter or dial the "+" on a basic GSM cell phone (i.e. 
non-smartphone with a standard keypad)?  Is there a standard why to dial the 
"+"?  Is it added to the "*" or "#'?

-Gary

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#468

>How do you enter or dial the "+" on a basic GSM cell phone (i.e. 
>non-smartphone with a standard keypad)?  Is there a standard why to dial the 
>"+"?  Is it added to the "*" or "#'?

It's not perfectly standardized, but the most common is to hold down
the zero until it changes to a plus.

R's,
John

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#470

Gary <bogus-email@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I wrote:

>>My understanding is that "+" means "dial the international access
>>code appropriate to your location, then this number."

>John Levine responded:

>>No, it's part of the GSM standard.  The whole point is that you can
>>put numbers in your phone's address book, and they will work
>>regardless of where in the world you use your phone.  If I use my US
>>phone in the UK, do I dial calls with 011 or 00?  I have no idea, I
>>dial +.

>Cool!  That's a bit of dialing information I wasn't aware of.  It
>certainly makes sense for mobile phones designed for a "Global"
>standard.  I'm assuming you can still dial the international access
>code, if you choose.

>How do you enter or dial the "+" on a basic GSM cell phone (i.e.
>non-smartphone with a standard keypad)?  Is there a standard why to
>dial the "+"?  Is it added to the "*" or "#'?

It's proprietary. On my quad-band Motorola V195s, I press and hold the
0 key until + appears on the screen, then dial country code and
number.

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#507

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:20:40 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> said:
>
>Gary <bogus-email@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I wrote:
>
>>>My understanding is that "+" means "dial the international access
>>>code appropriate to your location, then this number."
>
>>John Levine responded:
>
>>>No, it's part of the GSM standard.  The whole point is that you can
>>>put numbers in your phone's address book, and they will work
>>>regardless of where in the world you use your phone.  If I use my US
>>>phone in the UK, do I dial calls with 011 or 00?  I have no idea, I
>>>dial +.
>
>>Cool!  That's a bit of dialing information I wasn't aware of.  It
>>certainly makes sense for mobile phones designed for a "Global"
>>standard.  I'm assuming you can still dial the international access
>>code, if you choose.
>
>>How do you enter or dial the "+" on a basic GSM cell phone (i.e.
>>non-smartphone with a standard keypad)?  Is there a standard why to
>>dial the "+"?  Is it added to the "*" or "#'?
>
>It's proprietary. On my quad-band Motorola V195s, I press and hold the
>0 key until + appears on the screen, then dial country code and
>number.
>
>>> Matter of interest; I have a Nokia S6 on the G.B. Orange system, some 
>>> numbers stored in this country`s notation, e.g. 0xxx xxx xxxx, or 
>>> international 044xxx xxx xxxx, either works locally.

I just tried the `+` idea, I have to press `*` twice, then
international code; & it works!

Richard, Birmingham , England.

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#473

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 09:29:48 -0400, Gary <bogus-email@hotmail.com> wrote:

> How do you enter or dial the "+" on a basic GSM cell phone (i.e.
> non-smartphone with a standard keypad)?  Is there a standard why to dial the
> "+"?  Is it added to the "*" or "#'?

Well, LG's cu400 (as served up by Cingular) has extra functionality
on its 0 (digit-zero) key, as shown by the + (plus-sign) and space-
mark decorating it -- press-and-hold the 0 key and you generate the
"+" dialing entry.

The 0 key on a Motorola SLVR L2 (also with Cingular branding), otoh,
bears a + and an up-arrow (serving as shift key when composing text);
again, press-and-hold the 0 key to generate a "+" dialing entry.

On a VoiceStream-branded Nokia 6610, however, press-and-hold of the
"0" key brings up that handset's WAP browser; a "+" dialing entry
requires, instead, multiple presses on the * (asterisk) key: a single
press for *; two for +; three for p (2-second pause); four for w
(wait for user input); and five for . (dot, or period -- use unknown).

So, in short: yes, there's a standard way to dial the "+" -- often
a different standard way for each manufacturer :-) . Truly it's as
the unknown 20th century wag put it, "The nice thing about standards
is that there are so many to choose from amongst out there."

Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP

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#474

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 09:29:48 -0400, Gary wrote:
..........
> 
> How do you enter or dial the "+" on a basic GSM cell phone (i.e.
> non-smartphone with a standard keypad)?  Is there a standard why to dial
> the "+"?  Is it added to the "*" or "#'?
> 
Usually the keypad has the "+" symbol on a key which then replaces
the initial keystroke when you hold it down for a couple of seconds.

-- 
Regards, David.

David Clayton
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a
measure of how many questions you have.

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#505

On  23 Apr 2011, "John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:

>>My understanding is that "+" means "dial the international access code 

>>appropriate to your location, then this number."

> The whole point is that you can put numbers in your phone's address
> book, and they will work regardless of where in the world you use
> your phone.  If I use my US phone in the UK, do I dial calls with
> 011 or 00?  I have no idea, I dial +.

> I'm sort of surprised that VZ phones don't support them, but it does
> appear to be a defect in their implementation of CDMA.  Since CDMA
> phones work hardly anywhere outside NANP land, it's less of a
> practical issue.

I have a Verizon Blackberry Bold 9650 and the + sign DOES work
overseas.  For + to work, the device must be enabled for international
roaming, which means it switches itself to GSM mode once you arrive
overseas.  The BB "knows" that your home country code is +1 and that
all numbers in the address book without a + are, by definition, NANP
numbers.

When I was in Spain last month, I just scrolled to an address book
entry and pressed "send".  The phone automatically appended the +1 and
the call went right through to the US.

For numbers dialed manualy (i.e., not in the address book), the + key
is activated and DOES work when in GSM mode.

When I returned to the US, the phone dropped back to CDMA mode.

Greg Monti, New York, NY
gmonti@mindsapring.com

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#451

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:30:07 -0400, Gary wrote:
........
> Bottom line, it is best to know the international access code and dial it
> directly and not rely on the phone translating "+" for you.
> 
AFAIK it is not just the phone, it is the network either doing the
translation or sending the phone the appropriate substitute string for the
"+" so it works correctly.

If you roam you are told to always use the full "+nnn" string to prefix
all your numbers so wherever you go, the call gets to the correct
destination***


*** At my work we have a Skype Dualphone and even if you program the
numbers in correctly, the dopey Skype software mucks up the dial string
when you elect to use the landline instead of Skype - this is a known
problem and no one on the 'net has come up with a solution in a few years
now.

-- 
Regards, David.

David Clayton
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a
measure of how many questions you have.

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#452

Use of the + sign in printed phone numbers is defined in ITU-T
Recommendation E.123 at 

http://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-E.123-200102-I!!PDF-E&type=items


Harold

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#441

Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:39:21 -0500 John Mayson <john@mayson.us> wrote:

> At home we have AT&T and recently had T-Mobile for our cell service.
> I noticed on all phones, regardless of manufacturer, incoming SMS and
> calls without names assigned displayed in the +1xxxyyyzzzz format.
> Specifically the number is prefaced with the +1.
> 
> I have a Verizon phone at work.  I only see xxx-yyy-zzzz.  What's
> more, I cannot call internationally by using the (+).  The phone
> doesn't recognize that.  I have to use 011.  My attempt to call
> +60-4-yyy-zzzz resulted in a call to Vancouver.
>
> Is this difference due to GSM versus CDMA?

It all depends on what the sending service sends and the capability of
the receiving phone or CID box.  On pretty much all my calls on
T-Mobile calls come in as 1 NXX NXXXXXX.  If I receive a call from a
Netherlands mobile number it comes in as +316NXXXXXXX or if it comes
from an Israeli mobile number it comes in as +97254NXXXXXX.  If you're
receiving the call on a mobile phone it may come in as +country
code/number on a regular CID box if it shows an international number
it may just show the country code.  You say you have a Verizon phone
at work.  Is this a Verizon land line or Verizon Wireless?  If it's
Verizon Wireless then it may not know what to do with a + character
and it's probably due to the difference between how CDMA and GSM
handles calls.

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#443

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Joseph Singer <joeofseattle@yahoo.com> wr
ote:
> It all depends on what the sending service sends and the capability of
> the receiving phone or CID box. � On pretty much all my calls on
> T-Mobile calls come in as 1 NXX NXXXXXX. � If I receive a call from a
> Netherlands mobile number it comes in as +316NXXXXXXX or if it comes
> from an Israeli mobile number it comes in as +97254NXXXXXX. � If you'
re
> receiving the call on a mobile phone it may come in as +country
> code/number on a regular CID box if it shows an international number
> it may just show the country code. � You say you have a Verizon phone
> at work. � Is this a Verizon land line or Verizon Wireless? � If 
it's
> Verizon Wireless then it may not know what to do with a + character
> and it's probably due to the difference between how CDMA and GSM
> handles calls.

Sorry, I should've been more clear.  Verizon Wireless.  Incoming
international calls show up as 011-xxxxxxxxxxx.  On my AT&T Mobility
and T-Mobile USA phones domestic and international show up as
+xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.  Even my wife's el cheapo feature phone on AT&T
Mobility shows up with the plus sign.

It seems pretty clear to me it's a GSM feature.  I had T-Mobile USA
about 6 years ago but I don't remember if the plus sign ever showed
up.  It's something that just dawned on me recently.

John

-- 
John Mayson <john@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA

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#450

John Mayson <john@mayson.us> wrote:

>At home we have AT&T and recently had T-Mobile for our cell service.
>I noticed on all phones, regardless of manufacturer, incoming SMS and
>calls without names assigned displayed in the +1xxxyyyzzzz format.
>Specifically the number is prefaced with the +1.

>I have a Verizon phone at work.  I only see xxx-yyy-zzzz.  What's
>more, I cannot call internationally by using the (+).  The phone
>doesn't recognize that.  I have to use 011.  My attempt to call
>+60-4-yyy-zzzz resulted in a call to Vancouver.

>Is this difference due to GSM versus CDMA?

Yes. In GSM, all telephone numbers are dialed in international format,
although I have no idea what number sequence the + would represent.

When I store a number from an inbound call in the address book, I edit
the +1 that comes with each call to avoid wasting the screen space. Yes,
I know it's dialed whether I've explicitly stored it in the address book
or not.

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#471

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>John Mayson <john@mayson.us> wrote:

>>At home we have AT&T and recently had T-Mobile for our cell service.
>>I noticed on all phones, regardless of manufacturer, incoming SMS and
>>calls without names assigned displayed in the +1xxxyyyzzzz format.
>>Specifically the number is prefaced with the +1.

>>I have a Verizon phone at work.  I only see xxx-yyy-zzzz.  What's
>>more, I cannot call internationally by using the (+).  The phone
>>doesn't recognize that.  I have to use 011.  My attempt to call
>>+60-4-yyy-zzzz resulted in a call to Vancouver.

>>Is this difference due to GSM versus CDMA?

>Yes. In GSM, all telephone numbers are dialed in international format,
>although I have no idea what number sequence the + would represent.

>When I store a number from an inbound call in the address book, I edit
>the +1 that comes with each call to avoid wasting the screen space. Yes,
>I know it's dialed whether I've explicitly stored it in the address book
>or not.

Correction: Inbound calls from the United States or another country in
the NANP do not display the +, just the 1. I delete the 1 if I store the
number in my address book; the phone knows to dial it anyway.

I assume the phone is treating 1 as a country code and not the trunk prefix
which are inapplicable to cell phones thanks to the Send key.

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#485

>Correction: Inbound calls from the United States or another country in
>the NANP do not display the +, just the 1. I delete the 1 if I store the
>number in my address book; the phone knows to dial it anyway.

Here's a question for the mobile phone weenies: does the phone rewrite
the number you dial before it sends it to the switch, or does it just
send what you enter and the switch figures it out?

Since a mobile phone sends the whole number in a block, there's no
ambiguity between 7 and 10 digit numbers, and the leading 1 on 1+10
doesn't tell it anything useful.

Around here, seven digit dialing on mobile phones still works (we have
no overlays and no splits coming any time soon) but I assumed it was
the switch knowing what to do, not the phone stuffing in an area code.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

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#472

John Mayson  <john@mayson.us> wrote:
>At home we have AT&T and recently had T-Mobile for our cell service.
>I noticed on all phones, regardless of manufacturer, incoming SMS and
>calls without names assigned displayed in the +1xxxyyyzzzz format.
>Specifically the number is prefaced with the +1.

This is the standard international way of writing US telephone numbers.
That is, whatever the international prefix in your country is, plus 
the US country code, which is 1.

>I have a Verizon phone at work.  I only see xxx-yyy-zzzz.  What's
>more, I cannot call internationally by using the (+).  The phone
>doesn't recognize that.  I have to use 011.  My attempt to call
>+60-4-yyy-zzzz resulted in a call to Vancouver.

This is because 011 is the international dialing prefix in the US and 
Canada.

So, if you needed to call HP in London, their number is +44 344/424898.
So you would dial 011 44 344 424898 on your phone from the US.

If you were in a different country with a different international dialing
prefix, you would dial that before the country code.

>Is this difference due to GSM versus CDMA?

No, it's a matter of how you write the number not how you dial it.  You
don't dial the parentheses and dashes when you call (800) 555-1212 either.
--scott

-- 
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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