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Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ?

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  Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? jpr.charron@gmail.com - 2014-02-19 10:01 -0800
    Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? "David Hare-Scott" <secret@nospam.com> - 2014-02-20 07:55 +1100
    Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? PW <emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> - 2014-02-20 10:21 -0700
      Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? "Phil" <phil@stantonfamily.co.uk> - 2014-02-20 17:58 +0000
      Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? Ron Weiner <rw@domain.com> - 2014-02-20 13:40 -0500
      Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? "Access Developer" <accdevel@gmail.com> - 2014-02-20 13:15 -0600
        Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? PW <emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> - 2014-02-21 14:11 -0700
    Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? "Albert D. Kallal" <PleaseNOSpamkallal@msn.com> - 2014-02-21 16:35 -0700
      Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? "Access Developer" <accdevel@gmail.com> - 2014-02-21 19:43 -0600
        Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? "Phil" <phil@stantonfamily.co.uk> - 2014-02-22 08:55 +0000
        Re: Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ? "Albert D. Kallal" <PleaseNOSpamkallal@msn.com> - 2014-02-22 14:19 -0700

#9035 — Menu Creation with Access 2010 - Switchboard vs Navigation Form Pros & Cons - What is the best solution ?

From forums Pros & Cons reading, I still do not see an emerging preference.
What is your advice ?

Thank you,

j.P.

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#9036

jpr.charron@gmail.com wrote:
> From forums Pros & Cons reading, I still do not see an emerging
> preference. What is your advice ?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> j.P.

What do you mean?  To me these are same.

D

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#9039

On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:01:19 -0800 (PST), jpr.charron@gmail.com wrote:

>From forums Pros & Cons reading, I still do not see an emerging preference.
>What is your advice ?
>
>Thank you,
>
>j.P.


What's wrong with a ribbon menu?

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#9040

On 20/02/2014 17:21:59, PW wrote:
> 
>>

For the number of forms & reports I have in one of my larger databases over
100 forms and about 130 reports, both would be pretty horrible. I use a
treeview type structure, with branches, smaller branches and twigs as it
were, with the branches generally being menus and sub menus and the twigs
down to the individual forms or reports. Depending on the user who is logged
on, different menus will appear, in as much as some menus, sub menus and
forms are not shown to less privileged users.

I can do pretty things with the treeview menu like change foreground and
background colours of the various items or use bold type.

Each item in the menu, optionally, has a description of what it is for.

If that gets too difficult, I have an alternative method of finding a form or
report by typing in a few letters from anywhere in the description and it
will show all forms or reports that contain those letters. So I, for example,
I type in “ea” it will find things like End Year or Clear Old Data

Phil

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#9041

PW explained :
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:01:19 -0800 (PST), jpr.charron@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> From forums Pros & Cons reading, I still do not see an emerging preference.
>> What is your advice ?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> j.P.
>
>
> What's wrong with a ribbon menu?

I am an old fart and, me personally, I hate the *$%#@ Ribbon.  I have 
been  maintaining all of my Access Databases in Access 2000 format, and 
Create - Edit Menus in a Virtual Machine running Access 2K as 
necessary.  This way I have been able to successfully deploy to clients 
who have any Access version from 2K through 2010 (and Probably 2013 but 
not tested yet).

Perhaps the old axiom is true "Old Dogs Can't Learn New Tricks"!

Rdub

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#9042

"PW" <emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> wrote

 > What's wrong with a ribbon menu?

I heard a one-hour presentation on The Ribbon by its "Daddy" before it was 
revealed to the public -- most-selfserving presentation I'd seen in 20 or 
more years; already defending it on the basis of "extensive usability 
testing" before the public had seen it.  There was no groundswell of 
approval, no standing ovation by the audience of MVPs. The "need" was based 
on "Office menus are so complex, they have to be simplified"; that was an 
erroneous statement -- only Word's menus could remotely have been considered 
complex, and it's still open to question whether The Ribbon is more 
productive and easier to use. I am in the camp which believes The Ribbon is 
less productive, less easy to use, and I'm far from alone in my views on the 
subject.

I also saw the same fellow's two-and-a-half hour presentation given to the 
Developer's Conference that year, and it simply confirmed my beliefs from 
the earlier one.  I have observed The Ribbon in use by its proponents, and 
have used it myself (just as little as possible) and still don't like it, 
don't think it's easier, and don't see that its more productive.

There are, however, clever lads and lassies who've created add-ins / add-ons 
to restore most menu functionality, so if you must use Access 2007 and 
later, you probably can do so without screaming, pulling out your hair, 
lying on the floor, kicking with your heels, banging with your fists, and 
holding your breath 'til you turn blue -- probably.

 Larry Linson
   Microsoft Access MVP
   Co-Author, Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions, pub by Wiley, 2010 

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#9050

On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:15:32 -0600, "Access Developer"
<accdevel@gmail.com> wrote:

>"PW" <emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> wrote
>
> > What's wrong with a ribbon menu?
>
>I heard a one-hour presentation on The Ribbon by its "Daddy" before it was 
>revealed to the public -- most-selfserving presentation I'd seen in 20 or 
>more years; already defending it on the basis of "extensive usability 
>testing" before the public had seen it.  There was no groundswell of 
>approval, no standing ovation by the audience of MVPs. The "need" was based 
>on "Office menus are so complex, they have to be simplified"; that was an 
>erroneous statement -- only Word's menus could remotely have been considered 
>complex, and it's still open to question whether The Ribbon is more 
>productive and easier to use. I am in the camp which believes The Ribbon is 
>less productive, less easy to use, and I'm far from alone in my views on the 
>subject.
>
>I also saw the same fellow's two-and-a-half hour presentation given to the 
>Developer's Conference that year, and it simply confirmed my beliefs from 
>the earlier one.  I have observed The Ribbon in use by its proponents, and 
>have used it myself (just as little as possible) and still don't like it, 
>don't think it's easier, and don't see that its more productive.
>
>There are, however, clever lads and lassies who've created add-ins / add-ons 
>to restore most menu functionality, so if you must use Access 2007 and 
>later, you probably can do so without screaming, pulling out your hair, 
>lying on the floor, kicking with your heels, banging with your fists, and 
>holding your breath 'til you turn blue -- probably.
>

I only did that for a couple weeks ;-)  And am glad I did.

-paulw


> Larry Linson
>   Microsoft Access MVP
>   Co-Author, Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions, pub by Wiley, 2010 
>

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#9052

wrote in message 
news:2b78699d-da3e-4ca1-8fff-7371bca040da@googlegroups.com...

From forums Pros & Cons reading, I still do not see an emerging preference.
What is your advice ?

Thank you,

j.P.

-----

For new applications, the switchboard s rather lame and is deprecated.

Really rather poor anyway.

For complex and LARGE applications?

The new navigation form is a complete winner. The result is a web like 
interface, but one that can REALLY handle complex menus.

You can say have two rows of 15 options across the top, then any click gives 
a 15 row choice below and ALSO a choice along the left side.

These navigation forms essentially like a tab control with multiple tabs, 
but the forms are loaded dynamic so there not a speed cost if you have 20 or 
400 forms in your application.

The other great advantage of this system is you can display  report or forms 
in that system.

I cannot provide screen shots since I am under contract for this 
application, but it really amazing.

The switchboard provided a choice to launch a form. The navigation form 
system allows one to build a application around the system and it totally 
different idea - but one that works VERY well.

You can see a "tiny" bit of the screen shot in this PDF brochure:

http://www.pdqestimating.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/PDQ-Brochure_WEB.pdf

In the second screen shot if you zoom in you see choices across the top and 
then drills down along the left side.

This menu system scales VERY well in terms of complex applications - better 
then any menu system I have used.

best regards,

-- 
Albert D. Kallal  (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
PleaseNoSpam_kallal@msn.com

the software is NDA, but you can see "a bit" of the screen shot here:

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#9053

If they provided that functionality in an automatic fashion, then good for 
them. It's similar to what we've implemented with command buttons, combo 
boxes, text boxes, etc..  But, er, if you have 15 x 15 choices, that is too 
complex a form... 'way too complex.  I've worked on many database 
applications in which the plain switchboard was just fine; others where some 
data input was added and useful.

The "Switchboard Manager" however, was overkill -- a complex solution to a 
simple problem, with multiple forms and a table to implement what could/can 
easily be created with a few forms and command buttons, it was not easily 
maintainable (generally not maintainable at all through the 'manager' that 
generated it).

I don't think the "Switchboard Manager" in 'classic Access' is what Albert's 
writing about.

 -- 
 Larry Linson
  Microsoft Office Access MVP
  Co-Author, Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions, Wiley 2010

"Albert D. Kallal" <PleaseNOSpamkallal@msn.com> wrote in message 
news:kpRNu.77294$tP5.5682@fx08.iad...
> wrote in message 
> news:2b78699d-da3e-4ca1-8fff-7371bca040da@googlegroups.com...
>
> From forums Pros & Cons reading, I still do not see an emerging 
> preference.
> What is your advice ?
>
> Thank you,
>
> j.P.
>
> -----
>
> For new applications, the switchboard s rather lame and is deprecated.
>
> Really rather poor anyway.
>
> For complex and LARGE applications?
>
> The new navigation form is a complete winner. The result is a web like 
> interface, but one that can REALLY handle complex menus.
>
> You can say have two rows of 15 options across the top, then any click 
> gives a 15 row choice below and ALSO a choice along the left side.
>
> These navigation forms essentially like a tab control with multiple tabs, 
> but the forms are loaded dynamic so there not a speed cost if you have 20 
> or 400 forms in your application.
>
> The other great advantage of this system is you can display  report or 
> forms in that system.
>
> I cannot provide screen shots since I am under contract for this 
> application, but it really amazing.
>
> The switchboard provided a choice to launch a form. The navigation form 
> system allows one to build a application around the system and it totally 
> different idea - but one that works VERY well.
>
> You can see a "tiny" bit of the screen shot in this PDF brochure:
>
> http://www.pdqestimating.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/PDQ-Brochure_WEB.pdf
>
> In the second screen shot if you zoom in you see choices across the top 
> and then drills down along the left side.
>
> This menu system scales VERY well in terms of complex applications - 
> better then any menu system I have used.
>
> best regards,
>
> -- 
> Albert D. Kallal  (Access MVP)
> Edmonton, Alberta Canada
> PleaseNoSpam_kallal@msn.com
>
> the software is NDA, but you can see "a bit" of the screen shot here:
>
>
>
>
> 

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#9054

On 22/02/2014 01:43:58, "Access Developer" wrote:
> If they provided that functionality in an automatic fashion, then good for
> them. It's similar to what we've implemented with command buttons, combo
> boxes, text boxes, etc.. But, er, if you have 15 x 15 choices, that is too
> complex a form... 'way too complex. I've worked on many database
> applications in which the plain switchboard was just fine; others where
> some data input was added and useful.
> 
> The "Switchboard Manager" however, was overkill -- a complex solution to a
> simple problem, with multiple forms and a table to implement what
> could/can easily be created with a few forms and command buttons, it was
> not easily maintainable (generally not maintainable at all through the
> 'manager' that generated it).
> 
> I don't think the "Switchboard Manager" in 'classic Access' is what
> Albert's writing about.
> 
> --
> Larry Linson
> Microsoft Office Access MVP
> Co-Author, Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions, Wiley 2010
> 
> "Albert D. Kallal" <PleaseNOSpamkallal@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:kpRNu.77294$tP5.5682@fx08.iad...
>> wrote in message
>> news:2b78699d-da3e-4ca1-8fff-7371bca040da@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> From forums Pros & Cons reading, I still do not see an emerging
>> preference.
>> What is your advice ?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> j.P.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> For new applications, the switchboard s rather lame and is deprecated.
>>
>> Really rather poor anyway.
>>
>> For complex and LARGE applications?
>>
>> The new navigation form is a complete winner. The result is a web like
>> interface, but one that can REALLY handle complex menus.
>>
>> You can say have two rows of 15 options across the top, then any click
>> gives a 15 row choice below and ALSO a choice along the left side.
>>
>> These navigation forms essentially like a tab control with multiple tabs,
>> but the forms are loaded dynamic so there not a speed cost if you have 20
>> or 400 forms in your application.
>>
>> The other great advantage of this system is you can display  report or
>> forms in that system.
>>
>> I cannot provide screen shots since I am under contract for this
>> application, but it really amazing.
>>
>> The switchboard provided a choice to launch a form. The navigation form
>> system allows one to build a application around the system and it totally
>> different idea - but one that works VERY well.
>>
>> You can see a "tiny" bit of the screen shot in this PDF brochure:
>>
>> http://www.pdqestimating.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/PDQ-Brochure_WEB.pdf
>>
>> In the second screen shot if you zoom in you see choices across the top
>> and then drills down along the left side.
>>
>> This menu system scales VERY well in terms of complex applications -
>> better then any menu system I have used.
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>> --
>> Albert D. Kallal  (Access MVP)
>> Edmonton, Alberta Canada
>> PleaseNoSpam_kallal@msn.com
>>
>> the software is NDA, but you can see "a bit" of the screen shot here:
>>
>>
I use a Treeview type navigation form and although on the sample at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/philofwaltonspics/12691803103/

it onle appears 3 levels deep, there is no limit to the number of menus, sub
menus & forms or reports. As you can see, I have expanded some nodes, so I
supose it really looks like a standard windows folder setup

Phil

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#9055

"Access Developer"  wrote in message 
news:bmqdmqF8etmU1@mid.individual.net...

>I don't think the "Switchboard Manager" in 'classic Access' is what 
>Albert's writing about.
> -- 
>Larry Linson
>  Microsoft Office Access MVP
>  Co-Author, Microsoft Access Small Business Solutions, Wiley 2010


Actualy, yes I was taking about the old switchboard since that is the 
context of this question and the poster.

I will say many have used the switchboard in the past since you could add 
"many" new menus and many new sub menus that appear as forms without having 
to write one new line of code or add one button or add one form to the 
application. So it was a table driven system that allowed one to to expand a 
menu system.

So in the context of the posters original question?

Is the switch board still a valid choice? pros vs cons? as per the subject 
line of this post?

I really never liked the switch board as you well note it was a bit complex. 
However as noted it does allow one to create a menu system without code and 
one could expand the switch board to many sub levels by just entering data 
into a table (so it was table driven solution).

However as noted, the new navigation form system is MUCH more practical, and 
produces not only a far more useful user interface, it also scales VERY well 
in terms of complexity.

For applications don't have a lot of forms and don't require a lot of 
"groupings" then the navigation system (or old switch board) for that matter 
is not much required.
A few forms with buttons that launch some forms will suffice.

I feel the BIG advantage of the new navigation form system is that you can 
see/edit/use a form with live data and HAVE MANY ACTIVE navigation options 
and choices active AT THE SAME TIME. So additional navigation choices are in 
full view and adding new navigation options does not require code.

The result is system that allows one to have a shipping form, but display 
several tabs and drill down options for the shipping part of the system. 
Normal forms or the switch board does NOT give you the option to have live 
options to launch other forms based on the current grouping without having 
to write code (and in full view/use). You can always code these things, but 
as complexity increases, then the amount of work to write and code such 
systems also increases - the navigation form system handles this increasing 
complexity far better then any previous solution I seen. This includes those 
with Visual Studio or other systems.

As noted, I will try and get permissions to post a series of screen shots of 
current software that makes EXTENSIVE use of the new navigations. Of course 
this software package sells for in excess of $100,000 so it not something 
you going write in a few months or even a year of typical Access developer 
time.

best regards,


-- 
Albert D. Kallal  (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
PleaseNoSpam_kallal@msn.com

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