Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]


Groups > comp.arch > #117702 > unrolled thread

Styles of addressing

Started byjgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman)
First post2026-08-31 17:35 +0100
Last post2026-09-07 17:15 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 475 — 30 participants

Back to article view | Back to comp.arch


Contents

  Styles of addressing jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-08-31 17:35 +0100
    Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-31 17:35 +0000
      Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-31 17:48 +0000
    Re: Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-31 17:43 +0000
      Re: Styles of addressing quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-08-31 22:20 +0000
        Re: Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-01 16:10 +0000
          Re: Styles of addressing quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-01 18:01 +0000
            Re: Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-01 11:55 -0700
              Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-01 19:58 +0000
                Re: Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-01 17:07 -0700
              Re: Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-02 01:06 +0000
                Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-08 08:28 +0000
                  Re: Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-08 13:31 +0000
                  Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-09 00:19 +0000
                  Re: Styles of addressing antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-09-09 18:21 +0000
                    Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-09 18:41 +0000
                      Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-09 20:42 +0000
                      Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-09 21:45 +0000
                        Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-09 21:49 +0000
                        Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-09 23:28 +0000
                          Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-10 03:45 +0000
                            Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-10 14:57 +0000
                      Re: Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-23 22:08 -0400
                        Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-28 15:24 +0000
              Re: Styles of addressing quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-02 01:31 +0000
            Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-02 02:44 +0000
      Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-02 07:45 +0000
    Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-31 22:32 +0000
      Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-01 00:12 +0000
        Re: Styles of addressing quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-01 05:24 +0000
          Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-01 16:05 +0000
          Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2026-09-01 10:07 -0700
            Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-01 21:17 +0000
              Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 18:59 -0400
                Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 01:50 +0000
                  Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-09 16:30 -0400
                    Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-09 20:50 +0000
                    Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-09 23:25 +0000
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-10 14:53 +0000
                        Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-10 16:36 +0000
                        Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-15 08:46 -0700
                        Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-09-16 17:21 +0000
                          Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-16 10:58 -0700
                            Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-17 10:00 +0000
                              Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-17 20:37 +0000
                          Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-16 18:15 +0000
                          Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-16 18:59 +0000
                            Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-16 19:16 +0000
                              Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-17 00:19 +0000
                            Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-16 12:24 -0700
                              Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-17 00:20 +0000
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-13 17:12 -0400
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-13 17:26 -0400
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-13 18:27 -0400
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-13 20:29 -0400
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-16 18:03 -0400
                Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 02:46 +0000
                  Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 04:26 +0000
                Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-03 14:40 +0000
                  Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-09-03 20:53 +0100
                Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-03 15:48 +0000
                  Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing David Schultz <david.schultz@earthlink.net> - 2026-09-03 12:07 -0500
                    Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-03 17:33 +0000
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 20:23 +0000
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-09-03 16:44 -0400
                  Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-03 17:32 +0000
                Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-09-03 14:43 -0400
                  Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 20:32 +0000
                    Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-03 21:08 +0000
                      Re: 370 address sizes, Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-04 01:11 +0000
                        Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-05 01:08 +0000
                          Re: Styles of addressing mas@a4.home - 2026-09-06 03:56 +0000
                          Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-06 13:51 +0000
                            Re: Styles of addressing kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2026-09-10 04:11 +0000
                              Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-10 14:59 +0000
                              Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-10 15:16 +0000
                                Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-10 16:06 +0000
                                  Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-10 16:55 +0000
                                  Re: Styles of addressing Robert Finch <robfi680@gmail.com> - 2026-09-10 21:43 -0400
                                  Re: Styles of addressing kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2026-09-13 17:50 +0000
                                    Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-14 00:42 +0000
                              CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-10 17:02 +0000
                                Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-10 18:58 +0000
                                  Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-10 19:01 +0000
                                    Re: CHERI Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-10 22:45 +0200
                                    Re: CHERI Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-11 16:49 -0400
                                  Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-11 06:00 +0000
                                    Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-11 17:50 +0000
                                      Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-11 18:14 +0000
                                        Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-11 21:59 +0000
                                          Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-11 22:34 +0000
                                            Data-independent timing (was: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-14 06:22 +0000
                                              Re: Data-independent timing (was: CHERI Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-14 10:04 -0700
                                                Re: Data-independent timing (was: CHERI scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-14 18:08 +0000
                                                Re: Data-independent timing (was: CHERI anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-14 21:35 +0000
                                    Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-09-12 11:31 +0100
                                      Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-12 16:42 +0000
                                Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-11 07:01 +0000
                                Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2026-09-13 17:21 +0000
                                  Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-13 18:00 +0000
                                  Re: CHERI (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-14 06:35 +0000
                          Re: Styles of addressing EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-09-06 10:44 -0400
                            Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-06 14:56 +0000
                              Re: Styles of addressing EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-09-06 12:58 -0400
                                Re: Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-06 12:04 -0700
                                  Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-06 23:59 +0000
                                    Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-07 04:29 +0000
                                    Re: Styles of addressing David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-07 10:40 +0200
                                      Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:25 +0000
                                        Re: Styles of addressing David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-07 23:10 +0200
                                          Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:58 +0000
                                            Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-08 05:30 +0000
                                            Re: Styles of addressing David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-08 11:20 +0200
                                            Re: Styles of addressing Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-09 12:23 -0400
                                              Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-10 03:47 +0000
                                        Re: Styles of addressing Josh Vanderhoof <x@y.z> - 2026-09-07 18:22 -0400
                                  Re: Styles of addressing EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-09-07 13:28 -0400
                                    Addressing Shared Stuff MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:33 +0000
                                      Re: Addressing Shared Stuff scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-08 15:48 +0000
                                        Re: Addressing Shared Stuff MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:05 +0000
                                      Re: Addressing Shared Stuff Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-13 12:05 -0400
                                        Re: Addressing Shared Stuff jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-09-16 23:11 +0100
                                          Re: Addressing Shared Stuff MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-17 00:26 +0000
                                          Re: Addressing Shared Stuff anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-17 09:32 +0000
                                            Re: Addressing Shared Stuff jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-09-17 13:32 +0100
                                              Re: Addressing Shared Stuff Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-18 01:08 +0300
                                                Re: Addressing Shared Stuff anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-18 06:10 +0000
                                            Re: Addressing Shared Stuff MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-17 16:06 +0000
                                              Re: Addressing Shared Stuff scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-17 17:26 +0000
                                                Re: Addressing Shared Stuff MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-17 19:40 +0000
                                      Re: Addressing Shared Stuff Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2026-09-14 12:52 -0700
                                Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-06 20:25 +0000
                                  Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-07 00:02 +0000
                                  Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-07 00:09 +0000
                                    Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-07 06:17 +0000
                                Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-06 23:46 +0000
                              Re: Styles of addressing Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:21 +0300
                              Re: Styles of addressing antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-09-08 15:08 +0000
                                Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-08 20:11 +0000
                                  Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-09 00:35 +0000
                                    Re: Styles of addressing Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-09 08:19 +0200
                                      Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-09 10:58 +0000
                                  Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-10 06:16 +0000
                                    Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-10 17:22 +0000
                                      Re: Styles of addressing Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-10 22:42 +0200
                                        Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-11 06:32 +0000
                                      Re: Styles of addressing George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-09-10 17:02 -0400
                                        Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-11 06:33 +0000
                                          Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-11 08:55 +0000
                                          Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-11 17:54 +0000
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-11 23:19 +0200
                                              Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-11 22:05 +0000
                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-12 09:30 +0000
                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-12 13:23 +0200
                                                Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-12 13:18 +0200
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-12 17:09 +0000
                                          Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-09-11 23:25 -0400
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-12 08:38 +0000
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-12 09:09 +0000
                                              Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-15 09:17 -0700
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-14 16:24 +0200
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-15 06:34 -0700
                                          Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-12 17:15 +0000
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2026-09-12 19:13 +0100
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-12 18:14 +0000
                                              Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-13 03:28 +0000
                                                Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-13 14:27 +0000
                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 14:58 +0000
                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-13 16:09 +0000
                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-13 17:38 +0000
                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-13 17:34 +0000
                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-14 14:43 +0000
                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-14 15:44 +0000
                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers (was: Styles of addressing) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-14 18:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-16 13:14 -0400
                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-17 16:47 +0000
                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-17 19:38 +0000
                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-17 21:25 +0000
                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2026-09-21 22:10 -0400
                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-18 16:38 -0400
                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> - 2026-09-19 06:01 +0000
                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-19 06:25 +0000
                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-20 02:56 -0400
                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-20 20:12 +0000
                                                            Microarchitectural effects on performance (was: Optimization ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-21 06:55 +0000
                                                              Re: Microarchitectural effects on performance (was: Optimization ...) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-21 17:04 +0000
                                                                Re: Microarchitectural effects on performance (was: Optimization ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-23 05:39 +0000
                                                                  Re: Microarchitectural effects on performance (was: Optimization ...) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-23 18:34 +0000
                                                                  Re: Microarchitectural effects on performance Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-23 13:53 -0400
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-21 12:48 -0400
                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-21 17:17 +0000
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-21 20:06 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-21 23:48 +0300
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-22 05:25 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-09-22 14:13 -0400
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-26 07:44 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2026-09-22 14:48 +0300
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-23 19:28 +0000
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-22 05:19 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-22 08:29 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-23 05:40 +0000
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-23 06:45 -0700
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-22 14:32 +0200
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-22 15:21 -0700
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-23 05:23 +0000
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-23 14:01 +0000
                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-23 16:52 +0200
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-23 08:01 -0700
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-23 10:38 +0200
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-23 07:54 -0700
                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-23 18:24 +0200
                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-23 11:20 -0700
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-23 21:24 +0200
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-02 04:10 +0000
                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-02 10:05 +0200
                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-02 22:04 -0700
                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-03 13:13 +0000
                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-24 11:56 +0000
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-24 16:35 +0200
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-23 07:47 -0700
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-24 07:59 -0700
                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-24 09:29 -0700
                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-25 07:27 -0700
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-25 17:12 +0200
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-27 11:51 -0700
                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-25 11:16 -0400
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-25 19:00 +0200
                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-25 18:12 +0000
                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-26 10:25 -0400
                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-27 13:42 +0000
                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-27 18:18 +0300
                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-27 18:04 +0200
                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-27 19:43 +0300
                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-27 10:55 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-27 22:12 +0200
                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-28 02:59 -0700
                                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-28 14:43 +0200
                                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-01 07:14 -0700
                                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-05 11:36 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2026-10-05 16:48 +0300
                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-06 23:16 +0200
                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-07 13:28 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-07 16:43 +0200
                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-07 19:57 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-07 22:31 +0200
                                                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-08 21:28 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-11 08:41 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-11 18:14 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-11 20:56 +0200
                                                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-12 07:47 +0200
                                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-12 11:25 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-12 16:20 +0200
                                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-12 17:10 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-12 21:05 +0200
                                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2026-10-13 12:03 +0300
                                                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-13 10:27 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2026-10-13 20:00 +0300
                                                                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-14 08:02 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-14 08:50 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-14 23:39 +0200
                                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2026-10-13 09:09 -0700
                                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-13 16:31 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-13 18:12 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2026-10-13 20:02 +0300
                                                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-13 19:50 +0200
                                                                                                                      Comment delimiters (was: Optimization by programmers) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-13 23:24 -0400
                                                                                                                        Re: Comment delimiters David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-14 09:56 +0200
                                                                                                                        Re: Comment delimiters (was: Optimization by programmers) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-10-14 12:14 -0400
                                                                                                                          Re: Comment delimiters (was: Optimization by programmers) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-14 18:07 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Comment delimiters (was: Optimization by programmers) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-14 18:50 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Comment delimiters EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-14 15:45 -0400
                                                                                                                              Re: Comment delimiters anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-15 06:17 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Comment delimiters Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-16 06:35 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: Comment delimiters anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-16 17:10 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Comment delimiters MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:55 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Comment delimiters George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-10-16 18:57 -0400
                                                                                                                                    Re: Comment delimiters John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-17 04:01 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Comment delimiters Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-15 15:42 -0400
                                                                                                                                Re: Comment delimiters EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-16 12:46 -0400
                                                                                                                                  Re: Comment delimiters anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-16 17:56 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: FORTRAN, was Comment delimiters John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                                                                                                                                      Re: FORTRAN, was Comment delimiters Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-17 11:09 -0400
                                                                                                                                    Re: Comment delimiters EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-17 10:06 -0400
                                                                                                                                      Re: Comment delimiters Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-17 14:58 +0000
                                                                                                                                        Re: Comment delimiters EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-18 10:55 -0400
                                                                                                                                          Re: Comment delimiters MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-18 17:56 +0000
                                                                                                                                          Re: Comment delimiters Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-19 18:09 +0000
                                                                                                                                            Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-20 03:50 +0000
                                                                                                                                              Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-10-20 20:53 +0100
                                                                                                                                                Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-20 20:15 +0000
                                                                                                                                                  Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-20 20:44 +0000
                                                                                                                                                    Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-20 22:49 +0000
                                                                                                                                                      Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-10-21 23:06 +0100
                                                                                                                                                        Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-22 00:02 +0000
                                                                                                                                                          Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-10-22 23:43 +0100
                                                                                                                                                            Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-23 00:27 +0000
                                                                                                                                                              Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-10-23 03:46 +0100
                                                                                                                                                                Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-23 11:21 +0300
                                                                                                                                                                Re: more Fortran, Comment delimiters David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-23 12:49 +0200
                                                                                                                                                Re: Algol, was more Fortran, Comment delimiters John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-21 03:28 +0000
                                                                                                                                                  Re: Algol, was more Fortran, Comment delimiters quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-21 14:10 +0000
                                                                                                                                                    Re: Algol, was more Fortran, Comment delimiters cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-21 20:11 +0000
                                                                                                                                                      Re: Algol, was more Fortran, Comment delimiters cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-21 20:38 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Comment delimiters EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-17 10:06 -0400
                                                                                                                                  Re: Comment delimiters Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-16 20:35 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: FORTRAN, was Comment delimiters John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-17 03:49 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: FORTRAN, was Comment delimiters MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-17 17:16 +0000
                                                                                                                                      Re: FORTRAN, was Comment delimiters quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-18 02:03 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Comment delimiters quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-17 08:51 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Comment delimiters Robert Finch <robfi680@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 22:54 -0400
                                                                                                                                  Re: Comment delimiters quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-19 08:39 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Comment delimiters quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-19 08:42 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Comment delimiters cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-20 01:43 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Comment delimiters (was: Optimization by programmers) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-14 22:43 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Comment delimiters (was: Optimization by programmers) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-15 18:15 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-12 16:12 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-12 18:40 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-12 19:21 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-12 19:54 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 21:10 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-12 22:37 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: smashing constants, sort of like Optimization by programmers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-13 00:35 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-13 18:40 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 15:47 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 15:41 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-12 18:37 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 21:07 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-12 22:35 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-17 02:03 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-07 22:25 +0300
                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-07 20:05 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-07 23:25 +0300
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-07 22:36 +0200
                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-08 22:05 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-09 16:36 +0200
                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-07 16:49 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-07 22:13 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-08 05:46 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-08 12:05 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-08 22:55 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-28 19:58 +0300
                                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-29 15:44 -0700
                                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-09-30 13:57 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-30 17:50 +0300
                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-05 11:47 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-30 18:03 +0200
                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-30 17:49 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-01 06:58 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-02 20:38 +0200
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-02 21:23 -0700
                                                                                                      Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-03 11:12 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-05 12:45 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-06 08:29 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-07 18:29 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-10 14:18 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 17:31 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-11 15:40 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Rust Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-11 14:26 -0400
                                                                                                                      Re: Rust cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 19:14 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Rust Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-12 21:15 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 19:13 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 22:28 +0300
                                                                                                              Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-11 09:27 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-11 22:43 +0300
                                                                                                        Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-06 05:01 -0700
                                                                                                          Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-06 15:21 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-07 05:41 -0700
                                                                                                            Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-07 14:23 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-10-06 21:18 -0400
                                                                                                            Re: Rust (was: Optimization by programmers) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-06 22:17 -0700
                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-03 14:25 +0200
                                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-03 21:08 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-05 12:29 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-12 01:49 -0700
                                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 13:05 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-05 12:29 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-28 15:34 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-29 12:42 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-28 10:54 +0200
                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-27 17:39 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-27 21:23 +0300
                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-29 16:53 +0000
                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-09-27 11:46 -0400
                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-27 14:42 -0400
                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-28 06:12 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-28 07:57 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-28 08:56 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-28 11:06 +0200
                                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-28 14:32 -0400
                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-27 16:40 +0200
                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-09-28 01:58 -0400
                                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-29 10:16 +0200
                                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-02 05:31 +0000
                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-24 19:52 +0000
                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-24 13:52 -0700
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-25 11:06 +0200
                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-25 05:43 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-23 05:49 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-23 10:45 +0200
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-25 05:39 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-25 14:36 +0000
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-25 14:45 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers aph@littlepinkcloud.invalid - 2026-10-04 08:15 +0000
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-04 12:15 +0200
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-04 14:16 +0000
                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-04 16:36 +0200
                                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-04 17:46 +0000
                                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-04 20:04 +0200
                                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-06 02:17 +0000
                                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-06 10:05 +0200
                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-19 12:06 +0000
                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-19 15:56 +0000
                                                        Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-20 10:46 +0000
                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-20 14:24 +0300
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-20 11:52 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-20 15:09 +0300
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-21 05:27 +0000
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-20 12:13 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-20 15:35 +0300
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-20 16:43 +0000
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-21 20:23 +0300
                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-20 11:49 +0000
                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-20 07:31 -0700
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-22 20:01 +0200
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-22 20:52 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-23 13:17 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-22 16:50 -0700
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-03 05:28 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-03 04:38 -0700
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-05 13:55 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-05 22:54 +0000
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-06 06:35 +0000
                                                                  Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-06 02:53 -0700
                                                                    Re: Optimization by programmers Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-06 14:55 -0400
                                                          Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-21 15:16 +0000
                                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-22 06:15 +0000
                                                              Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-24 17:05 +0000
                                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-26 09:18 +0000
                                                      Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-22 19:57 +0200
                                            Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-14 16:31 +0200
                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-14 16:58 +0000
                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-15 06:45 -0700
                                              Re: Optimization by programmers Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-09-15 06:53 -0700
                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-15 17:21 +0200
                                              Re: Optimization by programmers quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-09-15 16:00 +0000
                                                Re: Optimization by programmers Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-15 19:40 +0200
                                                Re: Optimization by programmers anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-18 15:58 +0000
                                      Re: Styles of addressing David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-09-11 10:15 +0200
                                      Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-11 08:54 +0000
                                        Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-11 10:54 +0000
                            Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-06 15:56 +0000
                            Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-06 21:46 +0000
    Re: Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-01 12:07 -0700
      Re: Styles of addressing MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-01 20:04 +0000
        Re: PDP-10 Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-02 01:15 +0000
          Re: PDP-10 Styles of addressing Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-02 13:55 -0300
            Re: PDP-10 Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-02 17:32 +0000
        Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-02 02:42 +0000
          Re: Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-02 11:19 -0700
            Re: Styles of addressing Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-09-02 20:39 +0000
            Re: Styles of addressing scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-02 21:09 +0000
            Re: Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-02 22:01 +0000
            Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-08 08:34 +0000
              Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-09 01:37 +0000
                Re: Styles of addressing Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-09-09 08:25 +0200
                  Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-09 08:13 +0000
                Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-09 08:43 +0000
                  Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-10 05:41 +0000
                    Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-10 17:16 +0000
                      Re: Styles of addressing Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-12 02:29 +0000
                        Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-12 07:49 +0000
              Re: Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-11 23:30 -0700
                Re: Styles of addressing anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-09-12 08:23 +0000
                  Re: Styles of addressing John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-12 18:34 +0000
        Re: Styles of addressing Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-09-07 17:15 -0700

Page 22 of 24 — ← Prev page 1 … 20 21 [22] 23 24  Next page →


#118116 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromMichael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Date2026-09-21 20:23 +0300
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<20260921202316.000051c8@yahoo.com>
In reply to#118110
On Sun, 20 Sep 2026 16:43:54 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:

> Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> writes:
> >It seems to me, the most heavy impact on Zen3 is when such merged
> >SIMD store is followed by GPR load to the same location within a
> >dozen or so of CPU cycles.  
> 
> This is a case I measured in
> <https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/stwlf/>.  Look for the
> wl>ws=_=>nl>ns line.  In this case, on Zen3 merging (-O3) is faster  
> than not merging (-O).
> 
> But I see slowdowns from merging (-O3) in other cases where the
> partial store-to-load overlap does not occur, e.g., in the "wl>ws=>wl
> (recurrence), nl>ns (no recurrence)" case (and that's pretty
> widespread among microarchitectures), so there is probably another
> microarchitectural pitfall beyond the partal store-to-load forwarding.
> 
> - anton

The truth is that I don't know exact conditions.
Probably can dig test cases out of old projects if there is a real
interest from gcc maintainers. One example where I had seen it was
emulation of binary128 floating point, either fmul or fadd, I can't
recollect which of the two.
Although the whole enterprise with my failed attempt to give away to gcc
much faster binary128 arithmetic was rather depressing so I'd prefer
to find example from another field, but right now can not recollect
anything else.


[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118104 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2026-09-20 11:49 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<2026Sep20.134914@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#118100
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>>Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>Two points: A compiler is restricted by the transformations
>>>it can do by the language specification.  For example, loop
>>>interchanges with floating point calculation can give different
>>>results.
>>
>> Interestingly, this is where gcc maintainers do the right thing and
>> people who want to risk program breakage must use an extra flag
>> (-ffast-math) to get "optimizations" (such as FP operation
>> reassociation) that may change the results.
>>
>>>High-level transformation would transform Anton's beloved
>>>bubblesort benchmark into insertion sort, at least.
>>
>> This bubble-sort benchmark comes from John Hennessey's collection of
>> integer benchmarks, and Marty Fraeman has translated several of these
>> benchmarks into Forth.  This is the reason why I like to use it for
>> comparing the performance of Forth systems to C compilers.
>
>Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>the quote from Numerical Recipes...

So what?

>> Recognizing this bubble-sort and using a more efficient sort (e.g.,
>> insertion sort for small instances, quicksort for larger ones) would
>> be a real optimization; it would ruin the comparability with the Forth
>> translation (as long as we do not put this kind of effort into Forth
>> compilers), but that's life.  But for now gcc autovectorizes it in a
>> way that produces a significant slowdown; clang avoids this pitfall.
>
>All such choices are the result of heuristics.  Bubble sort has a
>very special memory access pattern.  A straightforward patch would
>very likely pessimize a lot of existing code which profits from
>auto-vectorization.  I have no doubt that the existing heuristics
>can be improved.

Oh really?  Loading two adjacent memory locations in a way that the
compiler can see and (if the maintainer is sufficiently clueless)
merge after storing to one of these locations, with some optimization
barrier in between (control flow in the case of bubble-sort) is very
special?  How come it also occurs in Gforth?

>> Note that this auto-vectorization of gcc does not just slow down
>> bubble-sort, but also gforth: when you load two adjacent stack items
>> in one VM instruction, gcc -O3 by default wants to auto-vectorize
>> these accesses, and given that one or both of them usually have been
>> written recently, this would result in a slowdown.  What's worse, gcc
>> seems to think that a lot of values are alive that are actually dead,
>> and generates dozens or hundreds of copying instructions into the code
>> of each VM instruction, increasing the slowdown even more.  For that
>> reason, we have disabled tree-slp-vectorization when building Gforth.
>
>There is no stopping you from developing a patch (or having
>it developed by a student as part of a thesis - can you act as
>supervisor for master's or bachelor's theses?) and then submitting
>it to gcc.

Sure, but nobody is paying me or the student to do it, either.  So I
leave it to those people who are paid to do it.

Also, I don't think that flipping the default for
tree-slp-vectorization off is a worthwhile thesis topic.  Admittedly,
there may be cases where tree-slp-vectorization would vectorize even
if the vectorization for loads is turned off, but I expect it to be
rare.

>But if you do so, you should make sure that it is does
>not slow down normal programs (as measured by SPEC).

The parenthetical remark is revealing.  While SPEC CPU may intend to
be representative of a wide range of programs, it's still just a bunch
of programs with a bunch of performance-critical hot spots (typically
inner loops), and if these happen to avoid a performance pitfall like
store-to-wide-load forwarding, it is doubtful that they are
representative in this respect.

>Regarding clang: There are numerous cases where gcc's more
>aggressive auto-vectorization generates a lot of profit vs.  clang.
>These are cases that would very probably suffer when heuristics
>are not very carefully chosen.

My experiments with auto-vectorization over the last year with both
gcc and clang contradict your claim that gcc is more aggressive in
auto-vectorization in general.  E.g., I tested when either compilers
would stop auto-vectorizing loops due to potential aliases, and I have
not found a limit for clang, while I have for gcc (I stopped when I
ran out of registers for the arrays); i.e., clang is more aggressive
here, at the cost of needing more checking for overlapping arrays
before entering the loop.

- anton
-- 
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118108 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromTim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Date2026-09-20 07:31 -0700
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<86a4pct2oj.fsf@linuxsc.com>
In reply to#118100
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:

> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
> the quote from Numerical Recipes...

For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):

   void
   baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
      for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
         for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
            if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
               /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
            }
         }
      }
   }

(Disclaimer:  not original.)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118129 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromTerje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no>
Date2026-09-22 20:01 +0200
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<118ufqa$131ts$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#118108
Tim Rentsch wrote:
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
> 
>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
> 
> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
> 
>     void
>     baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>        for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>           for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>              if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>                 /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>              }
>           }
>        }
>     }
> 
> (Disclaimer:  not original.)

Did you watch one of my favorite Youtube channels?
:-)

Terje

-- 
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118134 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2026-09-22 20:52 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<iUBsS.67508$k62.22375@fx14.iad>
In reply to#118129
Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> writes:
>Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>> 
>>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
>> 
>> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
>> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
>> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
>> 
>>     void
>>     baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>>        for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>>           for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>>              if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>>                 /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>>              }
>>           }
>>        }
>>     }
>> 
>> (Disclaimer:  not original.)
>
>Did you watch one of my favorite Youtube channels?
>:-)

As the google AI sez:


Complexity Matrix
Metric	Complexity	Description
Worst-Case Time	O(n²)	Always runs exactly n × n iterations.
Best-Case Time	O(n²)	Unlike optimized Bubble Sort, it has no early exit and runs fully even if pre-sorted.
Space Complexity	O(1)	Sorts in-place with a single temporary variable.

AI>Are you analyzing this specific function for a computer science
   assignment / code review, or would you like me to help you rewrite
   it into a working standard algorithm like Bubble Sort or Quick Sort?
me>If a student can't rewrite it themselves, they shouldn't be programming.
AI>That is a fair and candid perspective. Rewriting or fixing this specific
   function is a foundational exercise in control flow, loops, and basic logic. If someone
   cannot spot why a double-nested loop from 0 to n breaks standard sorting
   conventions - or how to implement a basic three-line variable swap - they
   will struggle immensely with more complex programming concepts.
AI>It highlights the difference between memorizing syntax and truly understanding
   code execution.
AI>Are you grading student submissions that included this specific code, or are you
    analyzing a textbook/exam problem designed to trip them up?
me>I saw the code snippet in comp.arch
AI>Ah, comp.arch - that explains it perfectly. USENET groups like comp.arch and comp.lang.c
   are notorious for regulars posting bizarre, intentionally "baffling" code fragments to
   spark academic debates, analyze compiler optimization side-effects, or illustrate
   architectural edge cases.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118145 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromThomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Date2026-09-23 13:17 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<1190jh9$1odpi$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#118134
Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> schrieb:

> AI>Ah, comp.arch - that explains it perfectly. USENET groups like comp.arch and comp.lang.c
>    are notorious for regulars posting bizarre, intentionally "baffling" code fragments to
>    spark academic debates, analyze compiler optimization side-effects, or illustrate
>    architectural edge cases.

ROTFLBTC :-)

-- 
This USENET posting was made without artificial intelligence,
artificial impertinence, artificial arrogance, artificial stupidity,
artificial flavorings or artificial colorants.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118136 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromTim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Date2026-09-22 16:50 -0700
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<865wzwu9qj.fsf@linuxsc.com>
In reply to#118129
Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> writes:

> Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>
>>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
>>
>> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
>> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
>> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
>>
>>     void
>>     baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>>        for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>>           for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>>              if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>>                 /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>>              }
>>           }
>>        }
>>     }
>>
>> (Disclaimer:  not original.)
>
> Did you watch one of my favorite Youtube channels?

Certainly there is a chance that I did.  I found out about
this sorting algorithm from a YouTube video.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118416 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromantispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch)
Date2026-10-03 05:28 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<119q3q8$36790$2@paganini.bofh.team>
In reply to#118108
Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
> 
>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
> 
> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
> 
>    void
>    baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>       for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>          for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>             if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>                /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>             }
>          }
>       }
>    }
> 
> (Disclaimer:  not original.)

AFAICS this is very old "sorting by choice" algortim, just written
in inefficient way (using swaps and keeping running max in the
array instead of using extra variable).

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118422 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromTim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Date2026-10-03 04:38 -0700
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<8633unnhed.fsf@linuxsc.com>
In reply to#118416
antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:

> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>
>>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
>>
>> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
>> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
>> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
>>
>>    void
>>    baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>>       for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>>          for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>>             if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>>                /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>>             }
>>          }
>>       }
>>    }
>>
>> (Disclaimer:  not original.)
>
> AFAICS this is very old "sorting by choice" algortim,

I suggest you look again.  It is not a selection sort.

> just written
> in inefficient way (using swaps and keeping running max in the
> array instead of using extra variable).

I am making no claim that this sort would be a good choice if
one wanted an efficient algorithm.  Surely no one would choose
it on that basis.  That's not what makes it interesting.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118480 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromcross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Date2026-10-05 13:55 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<11a0a7r$oau$1@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#118422
In article <8633unnhed.fsf@linuxsc.com>,
Tim Rentsch  <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:
>
>> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>>
>>>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>>>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
>>>
>>> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
>>> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
>>> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
>>>
>>>    void
>>>    baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>>>       for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>>>          for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>>>             if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>>>                /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>>>             }
>>>          }
>>>       }
>>>    }
>>>
>>> (Disclaimer:  not original.)
>>
>> AFAICS this is very old "sorting by choice" algortim,
>
>I suggest you look again.  It is not a selection sort.
>
>> just written
>> in inefficient way (using swaps and keeping running max in the
>> array instead of using extra variable).
>
>I am making no claim that this sort would be a good choice if
>one wanted an efficient algorithm.  Surely no one would choose
>it on that basis.  That's not what makes it interesting.

This whole thread is probably better in something like
comp.programming.

	- Dan C.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118481 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromantispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch)
Date2026-10-05 22:54 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<11a19rf$3u6ge$1@paganini.bofh.team>
In reply to#118422
Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
> antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:
> 
>> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>>
>>>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>>>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
>>>
>>> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
>>> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
>>> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
>>>
>>>    void
>>>    baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>>>       for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>>>          for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>>>             if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>>>                /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>>>             }
>>>          }
>>>       }
>>>    }
>>>
>>> (Disclaimer:  not original.)
>>
>> AFAICS this is very old "sorting by choice" algortim,
> 
> I suggest you look again.  It is not a selection sort.

Yes, you are right.  First pass seclecting maximal element is
like selection sort, the other passes work as insertion sort.
 
>> just written
>> in inefficient way (using swaps and keeping running max in the
>> array instead of using extra variable).
> 
> I am making no claim that this sort would be a good choice if
> one wanted an efficient algorithm.  Surely no one would choose
> it on that basis.  That's not what makes it interesting.

Probably the most interestiong thing about it is that it actually
sorts.  As a benchmork it could be useful to assess quality of
compiler removal of useless code.  I suspect that currently no
compiler is able to remove useless half of this code, also
probably can not optimize sequence of swaps to array shift.  But
those are not far from what is alreade done.

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118486 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2026-10-06 06:35 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<2026Oct6.083505@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#118481
antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:
>Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>> antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:
>> 
>>> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>>>    void
>>>>    baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>>>>       for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>>>>          for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>>>>             if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>>>>                /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>>>>             }
>>>>          }
>>>>       }
>>>>    }
...
>Probably the most interestiong thing about it is that it actually
>sorts.  As a benchmork it could be useful to assess quality of
>compiler removal of useless code.  I suspect that currently no
>compiler is able to remove useless half of this code, also
>probably can not optimize sequence of swaps to array shift.  But
>those are not far from what is alreade done.

Given that gcc and clang do not optimize the sequence of swaps in the
bubble sort component of John Hennesseys stan.c benchmark collection
from the early 1980s into array rotation, I would not expect it to
happen for the above, especially given that elements[i] and
elements[j] can and regularly will alias.  Ok, the compiler can infer
that no swap happens in this case, and split the inner loop into a
0..i-1 one and an i+1..n-1 one, but doing that is more involved than I
expect and have experienced from compiler optimizations for
"irrelevant" code.

For comparison, the inner loop of the bubble-sort benchmark in stan.c
is:

    i=1;
    while ( i<top ) {
      if ( sortlist[i] > sortlist[i+1] ) {
        j = sortlist[i];
        sortlist[i] = sortlist[i+1];
        sortlist[i+1] = j;
      };
      i=i+1;
    };

I see fewer hurdles in optimizing that than the inner loop of
baffle_sort(), but it does not happen.

- anton
-- 
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118493 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromTim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Date2026-10-06 02:53 -0700
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<86a4orm9yh.fsf@linuxsc.com>
In reply to#118481
antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:

> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>
>> antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:
>>
>>> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Bubblesort is the worst of non-joke sorting algorithms, see
>>>>> the quote from Numerical Recipes...
>>>>
>>>> For people who don't like bubble sort, or for inclusion in a set
>>>> of benchmarks, I suggest the following recently discovered
>>>> sorting algorithm (written in C-ish pseudocode):
>>>>
>>>>    void
>>>>    baffle_sort( unsigned n, int *elements ){
>>>>       for( unsigned i = 0; i < n; i++ ){
>>>>          for( unsigned j = 0; j < n; j++ ){
>>>>             if(  elements[i] < elements[j]  ){
>>>>                /* exchange elements[i] and elements[j] */
>>>>             }
>>>>          }
>>>>       }
>>>>    }
>>>>
>>>> (Disclaimer:  not original.)

[...]

>> I am making no claim that this sort would be a good choice if
>> one wanted an efficient algorithm.  Surely no one would choose
>> it on that basis.  That's not what makes it interesting.
>
> Probably the most interestiong thing about it is that it actually
> sorts.

That it actually sorts is I think the most surprising thing.

What I found most interesting is how it sorts or why it sorts.  It
took me a while to understand what makes it work.  It is difficult,
for example, to write invariants for this code that can be used to
establish the conclusion that sorting actually takes place.  A
better name than baffle_sort() might be least_transparent_sort().
But that would ruin the surprise. ;)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118506 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromStefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Date2026-10-06 14:55 -0400
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<jwvfqyioea5.fsf-monnier+comp.arch@gnu.org>
In reply to#118493
> What I found most interesting is how it sorts or why it sorts.  It
> took me a while to understand what makes it work.  It is difficult,
> for example, to write invariants for this code that can be used to
> establish the conclusion that sorting actually takes place.

Indeed, mostly because the first iteration (i=0) is completely different
from the other ones: the swaps that take place happen only when

      i > j or i == 0

So only the first iteration of the outer loop really works on the whole
array.  The subsequent ones do nothing once j > i.


=== Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118115 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2026-09-21 15:16 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<2026Sep21.171615@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#118100
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>All such choices are the result of heuristics.  Bubble sort has a
>very special memory access pattern.

Ok, what would a memory pattern look like that this vectorization was
designed for?  The big slowdown comes from the fact that in the
reordering case the vectorized version performs a wide store, and in
the next iteration it performs a wide load that partially overlaps the
store.  I buy it that the analysis will have trouble seeing that (not
that it's impossible in this case, but it requires effort).

>A straightforward patch would
>very likely pessimize a lot of existing code which profits from
>auto-vectorization.

How can we test this claim?  What would such code look like that would
suffer from disabling the combining of loads that tree-slp-vectorize
performs?

I decided to test the claim by continuing to use bubble-sort, but
avoiding the stores and thus the big slowdown: Bubble-sort a
pre-sorted array.  Apart from changing the array size, initializing
the array with pre-sorted values, changing the indentation and
condensing the code to one benchmark only (stan.c has a number of
benchmarks in one file, probably due to Pascal origins), the code is
unchanged; the original code already performs N iterations of the
outer loop (rather than doing an early-out on an already-sorted
array), so one does not need to change that aspect.

The inner loop is compiled by gcc-14.2 to:

novect (-O3 -fno-tree-slp-vectorize) vect (-O3)
70: mov   (%rax),%ecx                90: movq   (%rax),%xmm0      
    mov   0x4(%rax),%esi                 pshufd $0xe5,%xmm0,%xmm1 
                                         movd   %xmm0,%esi        
                                         movd   %xmm1,%ecx        
    cmp   %esi,%ecx                      cmp    %ecx,%esi         
    jle   7e                             jle    ae      #always taken
    mov   %esi,(%rax)                    pshufd $0xe1,%xmm0,%xmm0  #x
    mov   %ecx,0x4(%rax)                 movq   %xmm0,(%rax)       #x
7e: add   $0x4,%rax                  ae: add    $0x4,%rax         
    cmp   %rax,%rdi                      cmp    %rdi,%rax         
    jne   70                             jne    90                

In the presorted benchmark, the jle branch is always taken, and the
store instructions marked #x are never executed, so the
microarchitectural pitfall never occurs.

The novect code executes 7 instructions per iteration, the vect code
9, but maybe the vectorization manages to make the code execute faster
for some reason.  Let's see (on a Xeon E-2388G (Rocket Lake):

cycles        instructions
1,867,053,886 12,602,009,442 novect
3,603,774,972 16,202,621,392 vect

So the novect variant is twice as fast as the vect variant even
without the slowdown from the store-to-partially-overlapping loads.
If there is a speedup to be had from combining loads with
tree-slp-vectorize, it hides itself well.

The performance of the Rocket Lake for the novect variant is
remarkable.  It manages 6.75 IPC on average, which is very close to
the speed of light for this microarchitecture, with 5 renamer slots,
with compare-and-branch macro-instructions occupying only one renamer
slot (so the speed of light for a loop with 5 non-branches and 2
branches is 7 IPC).  Top-down microarchitectural analysis reports:

TopdownL1                 #      2.7 %  tma_backend_bound      
                          #      1.6 %  tma_bad_speculation    
                          #     -0.0 %  tma_frontend_bound     
                          #     95.7 %  tma_retiring           

The ideal is that 100% of the rename slots are consumed by retiring,
but the normal case is that many of the slots are lost due to the
other three reasons, and retiring numbers >50% are already pretty
good.

The Rocket Lake manages two taken branches per cycle here, while I had
thought it was only capable of doing one non-taken and one taken
branch per cycle.

- anton
-- 
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118122 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromThomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Date2026-09-22 06:15 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<118t6es$k2u5$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#118115
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> schrieb:
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>All such choices are the result of heuristics.  Bubble sort has a
>>very special memory access pattern.
>
> Ok, what would a memory pattern look like that this vectorization was
> designed for?  The big slowdown comes from the fact that in the
> reordering case the vectorized version performs a wide store, and in
> the next iteration it performs a wide load that partially overlaps the
> store.  I buy it that the analysis will have trouble seeing that (not
> that it's impossible in this case, but it requires effort).
>
>>A straightforward patch would
>>very likely pessimize a lot of existing code which profits from
>>auto-vectorization.
>
> How can we test this claim?

I do not believe that I have to explain the scientific method
to you.

As a first step, you would find an option that enables/disables
what you don't like.  -fstore-merging looks like a
candidate, but there may be others.  You can look at
https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/ASE56229.2023.00209 or
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10515-024-00437-w
if you want the full package.

Then try this combination of options on other benchmarks
as well as your pet one.  I have my reservations about SPEC,
but as you work at a university, you can get it for a discount.
You can also use freely available benchmarks: Coremark, embench,
Fortran Polyhedron - there are a lot.

If there are benchmark which regress significantly with that
set of options, you have your test case where it hurts.

Like I wrote previously - you could have a bachelor or master
student do this, it could be (part of a) nice thesis.

-- 
This USENET posting was made without artificial intelligence,
artificial impertinence, artificial arrogance, artificial stupidity,
artificial flavorings or artificial colorants.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118175 — Re: Optimization by programmers

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2026-09-24 17:05 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<2026Sep24.190531@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#118122
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> schrieb:
>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>>A straightforward patch would
>>>very likely pessimize a lot of existing code which profits from
>>>auto-vectorization.
>>
>> How can we test this claim?
>
>I do not believe that I have to explain the scientific method
>to you.
>
>As a first step, you would find an option that enables/disables
>what you don't like.  -fstore-merging looks like a
>candidate, but there may be others.  You can look at
>https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/ASE56229.2023.00209 or
>https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10515-024-00437-w
>if you want the full package.
>
>Then try this combination of options on other benchmarks
>as well as your pet one.  I have my reservations about SPEC,
>but as you work at a university, you can get it for a discount.
>You can also use freely available benchmarks: Coremark, embench,
>Fortran Polyhedron - there are a lot.
>
>If there are benchmark which regress significantly with that
>set of options, you have your test case where it hurts.
>
>Like I wrote previously - you could have a bachelor or master
>student do this, it could be (part of a) nice thesis.

That's a lot of words to express that you have no evidence for your
claim.

- anton
-- 
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
  Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118230 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromThomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Date2026-09-26 09:18 +0000
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<11982m1$avl4$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#118175
On 2026-09-24, Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> schrieb:
>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
>>>>A straightforward patch would
>>>>very likely pessimize a lot of existing code which profits from
>>>>auto-vectorization.
>>>
>>> How can we test this claim?
>>
>>I do not believe that I have to explain the scientific method
>>to you.
>>
>>As a first step, you would find an option that enables/disables
>>what you don't like.  -fstore-merging looks like a
>>candidate, but there may be others.  You can look at
>>https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/ASE56229.2023.00209 or
>>https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10515-024-00437-w
>>if you want the full package.
>>
>>Then try this combination of options on other benchmarks
>>as well as your pet one.  I have my reservations about SPEC,
>>but as you work at a university, you can get it for a discount.
>>You can also use freely available benchmarks: Coremark, embench,
>>Fortran Polyhedron - there are a lot.
>>
>>If there are benchmark which regress significantly with that
>>set of options, you have your test case where it hurts.
>>
>>Like I wrote previously - you could have a bachelor or master
>>student do this, it could be (part of a) nice thesis.
>
> That's a lot of words to express that you have no evidence for your
> claim.

I was just trying to get you to do something useful.  Wasted
effort, I know, but I keep trying.

-- 
This USENET posting was made without artificial intelligence,
artificial impertinence, artificial arrogance, artificial stupidity,
artificial flavorings or artificial colorants.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118128 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromTerje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no>
Date2026-09-22 19:57 +0200
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<118ufhf$131ts$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#118097
Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Paul Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> schrieb:
> 
>> I suspect algorithmic transformations are discouraged in
>> compilers under the assumption that the software developer used
>> appropriate algorithms as well as the compute cost to evaluate
>> options.
> 
> Two points: A compiler is restricted by the transformations
> it can do by the language specification.  For example, loop
> interchanges with floating point calculation can give different
> results. Unless directed otherwise, the compiler has to assume
> that this is what the user wants and needs.
> 
> An exception is something like Fortran's FORALL constuct, where
> the loop ordering is not specified and the compiler can chose.
> Intrinsic functions like MATMUL also have no restriction on what
> they can do internally; they can (and often do) call a highly-
> optimized BLAS routine.
> 
>> Usage and hardware information might theoretically be
>> made available, but I get the impression that most profiling
>> for compiler use is about path frequency.
> 
> Compilers tend to focus on lower-level stuff.  For example,
> there is a huge file of simplifying transformations for gcc at
> https://gcc.gnu.org/git/?p=gcc.git;a=blob_plain;f=gcc/match.pd
> 
> This now also contains reverse-engineered bithacks.  For example,
> the popcnt() method from Hacker's Delight are now recognized and
> translated into an internal function, which is then expanded
> into either an inlined function (much like the original) or
> a machine instruction, if the target has one.

clang recognizes both the bit per iteration and the n &= n-1 Hacker's 
method, bot turn into POPCNT on x86.

Much more impressive (to me) was to see that same compiler (working as 
the Rust backend) also recognized at least two different naive 
implementations of a non-square bitmap transpose, converting it into a 
SIMD blob with no need for me to break out the SSE/AVX intrinsics!
> 
> High-level transformation would transform Anton's beloved
> bubblesort benchmark into insertion sort, at least.
> 
> But if you're willing to take the risk of AI, you can of course
> tell it "Find all O(N^2) algorithms in my code and replace them
> with O(N log N) where possible".  It will happily do something,
> and the resulting code might even be correct after a few
> iterations.

"might" is important here...

Terje

-- 
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#118005 — Re: Optimization by programmers

FromTerje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no>
Date2026-09-14 16:31 +0200
SubjectRe: Optimization by programmers
Message-ID<11890f6$1jr26$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#117981
John Savard wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2026 06:33:21 GMT, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
> (Anton Ertl) wrote:
>> George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> writes:
>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2026 17:22:37 GMT, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
>>> (Anton Ertl) wrote:
> 
>>>> However, I have seem many cases where people made a claim that
>>>> compilers generate better code than programmers.
> 
>>> "compilers generate better code than MOST programmers."
> 
>>> The qualification is important.
> 
>> The statements I have read did not make such a qualification,
>> certainly not in capital letters.
> 
>>> There is no doubt that a good
>>> programmer can beat the compiler,
> 
>> And especially this statement is usually not made.  On the contrary,
>> the perpetrator of such statements seem convinced of compiler
>> supremacy.
> 
> I have no doubt that a good programmer can beat the original FORTRAN
> compiler for the IBM 704 computer, despite the fact that its
> optimization was very nearly as good as that of most optimizing
> compilers until at least the late 1970s.
> 
> I would not, however, be willing to assert that one could easily find
> human programmers who could beat an optimizing compiler... which had
> the Itanium as its target.
> 
> I don't believe that there are any other current architectures out
> there which are as nightmarish to program in assembler as the Itanium,

Huh???

I studied the Itanium architecture manuals and amused myself by writing 
asm kernels that took good advantage of the large register set, 
including the rotating ones.

Not at all a nightmare!

In fact, writing x87 asm by hand, trying to keep every working variable 
live on the 8-element stack, is significantly harder IMHO.

Terje

-- 
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


Page 22 of 24 — ← Prev page 1 … 20 21 [22] 23 24  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.arch


csiph-web