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Alternatives for ground (for PC's)

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  Alternatives for ground (for PC's) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-09-07 23:33 +0200
    Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-09-07 23:34 +0200
      Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) Mark Thorson <nospam@sonic.net> - 2011-09-07 14:57 -0800
        Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-09-08 00:05 +0200
          Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2011-09-07 17:42 -0700
            Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-07 20:15 -0500
            Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-09-08 05:33 +0200
              Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-09-07 22:20 -0600
              Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2011-09-07 22:32 -0700
                Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-08 01:15 -0700
                Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) "Nobody > (Revisited)" <usenetharvested@aol.com> - 2011-09-08 01:17 -0700
                  Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2011-09-08 11:05 -0700
              Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2011-09-08 08:13 +0100
              Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-09-08 12:55 +0000
            Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2011-09-08 13:18 +0200
        Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-09-08 00:07 +0200
    Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2011-09-09 18:01 -0700
      Re: Alternatives for ground (for PC's) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-09-10 03:55 +0200

#3544 — Alternatives for ground (for PC's)

Hello,

I am starting to suspect "ground" for PC's does more damage than good.

Perhaps the "ground" leads to a "backdoor" for electricity to do damage.

Therefore instead of dumping energy into the ground wire an alternative 
could be found.

For example some kind of circuit which transfer the energy into heat.

So that the energy is dumped into the system's air.

This way PC's no longer require a "ground" and there is no longer a 
"backdoor" for damage.

Bye,
  Skybuck. 

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#3545

This alternative would be especially usefull for environments which don't 
have a ground.

Like my living room or perhaps international space station ?

Does ISS have a ground ? ;)

How about laptops ? Do they have a ground when not plugged in ?

How about iPads or iPhones ?

Bye,
  Skybuck =D

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#3546

Skybuck Flying wrote:
> 
> How about laptops ? Do they have a ground when not plugged in ?

They use the human body.  The ground is that
warm spot on the bottom.

> How about iPads or iPhones ?

The ground is in the earpiece.  Excess electricity
is passed into your head.

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#3547

Oh really,

Sounds like you making a joke ?!

But just in case your are not, provide some proof/documentation of these 
"facts" ! ;) :)

It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything 
else does not.

I was thinking maybe the excessive stuff is stored inside and later 
dispossed when charging.

But what if a device would not need any charging for a long time ? ;)

Bye,
  Skybuck.

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#3550

In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$27428@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> wrote:

>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything 
>else does not.

Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.

Many other sorts of device do (for legal and safety reasons) require a
ground connection.  Here in the U.S., most major appliances do require
three-wire grounded power cords.

Here's the short version, as it applies to power-mains circuitry in
the United States.  Details may differ for mains connection rules in
other countries.

An appliance generally requires a safety-ground connection, if it has
a metal chassis or other electrically-conductive exterior, which can
be touched by a human.  This chassis is required to be connected to a
safety ground - one which returns to the ground connection at the
power distribution panel, and which does not carry any portion of the
normal load-return current.

This safety grounding of the chassis is intended to protect humans
against shock, if an electrical fault develops inside the device (e.g.
a loose wire) that could create an electrical connection between the
power wiring and the chassis.

Without a safety ground to the chassis, this sort of fault will result
in a "hot" chassis.  If a person were to touch the chassis, at the
same time that they were touching a grounded object (or standing in
water, or etc.), their body would complete the circuit and AC power
would flow through their body.  The amount of current needed to kill a
person is *far* too small to blow a fuse, and thus the person could die.

Grounding the chassis prevents this.  If a "weak" connection between
the power wiring and the chassis occurs (e.g. low-level leakage), the
safety ground will hold the chassis very near to the ground voltage
level, reducing the risk of electrical shock by quite a lot.  If a
real short-circuit to the chassis occurs, the grounding of the chassis
will either cause the fuse to blow, or will result in a loud
SPLUT-BANG! which will vaporize the shorting wire, or both.

Appliance do not require a safety ground if they're designed in a way
which prevents an internal fault from creating a hot chassis.  One way
is often referred to as a "double-insulated" design... the wires
themselves are insulated, and the device's outer shell consists only
of nonconductive (insulated) materials.

In the U.S., you can also do away with the need for a safety ground
(in some cases) by using a "ground-fault interruptor" - a device which
detects the fact that "current is flowing where it should not" and
disconnects the power before injury can occur.

Desktop and server PCs usually require safety grounds because they are
not double-insulated... they have exposed metal on their backplanes
(and often the case is metal) and their internal power supplies have
metal cases which are connected directly to the outer case.

Laptop PCs can sometimes operate without a safety ground, because they
have nonconductive (plastic) cases, and because the power entering the
PC is at a low enough voltage that it does not create a significant
shock hazard.

-- 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page:  http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

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#3555

On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 17:42:01 -0700, dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
wrote:

>Laptop PCs can sometimes operate without a safety ground, because they
>have nonconductive (plastic) cases, and because the power entering the
>PC is at a low enough voltage that it does not create a significant
>shock hazard.


Below certain power levels, gadgets powered by an appropriately
designed wallwart are exempt from grounding, since the wallwart
provides the required isolation.

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#3557

"Dave Platt"  wrote in message news:pjflj8-soh.ln1@radagast.org...

In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$27428@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> wrote:

>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
>else does not.

"
Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
"

My assumption is true.

Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding 
power wall sockets.

End of story.

Bye,
  Skybuck.

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#3558

"Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> writes:

> "Dave Platt"  wrote in message news:pjflj8-soh.ln1@radagast.org...
>
> In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$27428@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
> Skybuck Flying <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> wrote:
>
>>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
>>else does not.
>
> "
> Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
> "
>
> My assumption is true.
>
> Everything should work without ground because not everything has
> grounding power wall sockets.
>
> End of story.

I don't suppose there is any remote possibility you might consider
actually spending five minutes learning the faintest smidgeon about the
topics you post on before you post?  Or at least quit using new accounts
so you'll quit escaping my killfiles?

Didn't think so.

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#3559

In article <276a6$4e683768$5419acc3$25209@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> wrote:

>>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
>>else does not.
>
>"
>Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
>"
>
>My assumption is true.
>
>Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding 
>power wall sockets.
>
>End of story.

Not quite - at least, not if you want a full answer.

The answer is this:  almost all such devices will "work" without a
ground.  You could cut off the ground prong of the power cord, plug
the remaining two prongs into a non-grounding power wall socket, and
the device would "work".  It would run.

However, it would not work *SAFELY* - at least, not in a legal sense.
The device (PC, refrigerator, power tool, etc.) would have lost one of
its designed-in safety features - that of a safe grounding of the
chassis.

If such a device were to develop an internal short circuit when it
still had a ground, it would probably blow a fuse or trip a circuit
breaker... annoying perhaps, but it would "fail safe".

If you cut off or otherwise disable the ground prong on the plug, and
the device develops an internal short circuit... the next time you
touch it you can get a very severe shock and die.  The device will not
"fail safe".

So, the device will still "work" without a ground... but what it
"works on" may be the job of getting ready to kill you.

This is why you really should not try to run your PC without a ground.
It might have a grudge, and decide to electrocute you if given the
opportunity.

-- 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page:  http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

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#3562

On 9/7/2011 10:32 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
> In article<276a6$4e683768$5419acc3$25209@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
> Skybuck Flying<Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com>  wrote:
>
>>> It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
>>> else does not.
>>
>> "
>> Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
>> "
>>
>> My assumption is true.
>>
>> Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding
>> power wall sockets.
>>
>> End of story.
>
> Not quite - at least, not if you want a full answer.
>
> The answer is this:  almost all such devices will "work" without a
> ground.  You could cut off the ground prong of the power cord, plug
> the remaining two prongs into a non-grounding power wall socket, and
> the device would "work".  It would run.
>
> However, it would not work *SAFELY* - at least, not in a legal sense.
> The device (PC, refrigerator, power tool, etc.) would have lost one of
> its designed-in safety features - that of a safe grounding of the
> chassis.
>
> If such a device were to develop an internal short circuit when it
> still had a ground, it would probably blow a fuse or trip a circuit
> breaker... annoying perhaps, but it would "fail safe".
>
> If you cut off or otherwise disable the ground prong on the plug, and
> the device develops an internal short circuit... the next time you
> touch it you can get a very severe shock and die.  The device will not
> "fail safe".
>
> So, the device will still "work" without a ground... but what it
> "works on" may be the job of getting ready to kill you.
>
> This is why you really should not try to run your PC without a ground.
> It might have a grudge, and decide to electrocute you if given the
> opportunity.
>

I think one time, long ago, I tried running a PC with just a plain 
(non-grounded) extension cord, as I had nothing else at the time...

however, it seemed to have fried the power-supply or something, as the 
thing didn't turn-on after this. this was back in the days when the 
power-supply switch was still mechanical (before ATX and its 
MOBO-controlled power), and if one hits the switch, and nothing happens, 
then the PSU is not happy...

granted, thinking of it now, there could have been a safety fuse or 
something, which would blow if one tries to use the PSU without a proper 
ground.

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#3563

On 9/7/2011 10:32 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
> This is why you really should not try to run your PC without a ground.
> It might have a grudge, and decide to electrocute you if given the
> opportunity.

That would actually be a "permanent killfile" for this bozo. I'm tired 
of constantly adding new usernames to the "Skypuke Flailing" entry.

Why did you have to warn him?

He *still* knows nothing about electricity, this thread is almost a 
script rewrite of his "Is it possible to die from a battery ? " post in
sci.electronics.design from Aug 5 2005.
(Message-ID: <dcv6hl$rbk$1@news5.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>)


-- 
"Shit this is it, all the pieces do fit.
  We're like that crazy old man jumping
out of the alleyway with a baseball bat,
saying, "Remember me motherfucker?"
Jim “Dandy” Mangrum

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#3588

In article <rS_9q.8279$lD5.4711@newsfe15.iad>,
Nobody > (Revisited) <usenetharvested@aol.com> wrote:

>That would actually be a "permanent killfile" for this bozo. I'm tired 
>of constantly adding new usernames to the "Skypuke Flailing" entry.
>
>Why did you have to warn him?

On the off chance that the PC might, at some point in its existence,
feel remorse for having electrocuted him.

-- 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page:  http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

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#3560

On 08/09/2011 04:33, Skybuck Flying wrote:
>
>
> "Dave Platt" wrote in message news:pjflj8-soh.ln1@radagast.org...
>
> In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$27428@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
> Skybuck Flying <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> wrote:
>
>> It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and
>> everything
>> else does not.
>
> "
> Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
> "
>
> My assumption is true.
>
> Everything should work without ground because not everything has
> grounding power wall sockets.

The unit will work, but any fault condition may kill the owner if there 
is no safety ground on the external metal chassis and it goes live.
>
> End of story.
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.

Yes. Sooner or later you will kill yourself using kit with no earth.

Regards,
Martin Brown

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#3567

On 2011-09-08, Skybuck Flying <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> wrote:

> My assumption is true.
>
> Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding 
> power wall sockets.

grounding is primarily for safety, if you aren't woried by 240V, you
needn't worry about the ground either.

-- 
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to news@netfront.net ---

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#3566

In article <pjflj8-soh.ln1@radagast.org>,
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote:
>In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$27428@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
>Skybuck Flying <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> wrote:
>
>>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything 
>>else does not.
>
>Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
>

There are at least three types of ground. The first one, referred to
by mr Platt, is the safety ground. This is designed to deflect chassis
currents; keeping the voltage people, animals etc are exposed to to
levels where less than 30mA is carried through the person/animal.

At low levels of leak this takes care of itself, the ground has
so much less resistance than the alternate path, so the exposed voltage
is very low. If the leak increases, wires or fuses will break. 

For the intermediate case ground fault breakers have been installed. This
is a more recent development. Fuses date to the 1880s, invented 4 hours after
Edison discovered (or invented, as he claimed) the short circuit.

Then there is shielding ground. The purpose of this is to make an electromagnetic
inert shield around signal carrying wires, to dampen interference and
signal leakage. This can be carried to extremes, like in tempest enclosures.

And at last there is signal ground. This is one part of a circuit carrying a
signal. In some cases signal and shield is the same, e.g. RG58 carrying 10base2
signals. This has a lot of disadvantages, if there are shield problems you may
get creeping currents all around your network.

It is a good idea to separate all of these. You normally want a safety
ground capable of carrying at least 3 times the current of the heftiest 
connection, to be sure it will make a short and blow a fuse when there is
a leak.

Modern signals do away with signal ground, and go for differential signals, 
since these are far less exposed to leakage, deterioration etc.

-- mrr Who once worked for KPN. They have a grounding fetish.

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#3548

In case you are making a joke I will add to it:

"It is not disposed it is exploded into your head when the battery 
explodes".

Bye,
  Skybuck.

"Mark Thorson"  wrote in message news:4E67F6EC.4E59E59D@sonic.net...

Skybuck Flying wrote:
>
> How about laptops ? Do they have a ground when not plugged in ?

They use the human body.  The ground is that
warm spot on the bottom.

> How about iPads or iPhones ?

The ground is in the earpiece.  Excess electricity
is passed into your head. 

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#3600

On Sep 7, 3:33 pm, "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7I...@DreamPC2006.com>
wrote:

> I am starting to suspect "ground" for PC's does more damage than good.
>
> Perhaps the "ground" leads to a "backdoor" for electricity to do damage.

Ground is a very basic concept in electrical circuits.

Even on a laptop computer, which isn't connected to an external ground
(like a water pipe), the battery's two terminals, going into the
computer, define two potentials, one of which is considered to be
ground.

This lets the chips on the motherboard send signals directly to each
other, without having to be converted to light, or going through
isolating transformers, or whatever. What looks like +5 volts coming
out of one chip, compared to the voltage on its ground pin, looks like
+5 volts to all the other chips.

Of course, ground can have its risks. It can be a doorway to damage
when one part of a circuit is solidly grounded, and another part that
should be grounded the same way is not.

If something is electrically isolated, and comes in contact with one
external source of voltage, then its own potential will simply rise to
that voltage level with virtually no flow of current. This is why you
don't want to turn on the lights when your feet are wet.

If you want to make current flow within a circuit, you need to have
inputs at different voltage levels to that circuit. If the ground
level is the same everywhere, this prevents voltage differences from
accidentally becoming larger than were planned. It's when contact is
possible with a single voltage that doesn't belong is possible that
not being grounded - but instead being able to float to match that one
voltage - can give protection.

So how grounding versus isolation are applied to a circuit can be
considered in terms of which types of short circuit are more likely,
and which types of short circuit would have more serious consequences.
It isn't necessarily a good idea, for example, to take a computer or a
radio, and protect its delicate circuitry by letting its internal
ground float, so that a short from the high voltage in the power
supply won't damage the circuitry... until somebody touches the unit
and gets electrocuted.

John Savard

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#3601

The "ground does damage theory" of mine can be safely dismissed.

The power extension cord and box which was used was examined by me and 
opened.

There was a bit of dust in it indeed, maybe it caused a short circuit but I 
don't think so.

The power box extension did not have a ground wire.

The ground pins were connected to the power plug itself.

So I don't see how the electricity of the power wall socket could have 
entered the ground wire and reach the PC.

It seems impossible.

Therefore I do not believe the PC was damage via the ground connection, 
because the connection did not really exist.

This only leaves the "power fluctuation/spark" theory or age of power 
supply.

Bye,
  Skybuck. 

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