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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #31841 > unrolled thread
| Started by | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2023-04-26 16:56 +0200 |
| Last post | 2023-05-05 11:02 +0200 |
| Articles | 9 on this page of 69 — 8 participants |
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UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 16:56 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-26 17:57 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 22:40 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-04-26 21:00 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 17:20 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 10:15 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 09:26 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 22:44 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 17:10 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-27 09:17 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 10:28 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Andrew Smallshaw <andrews@sdf.org> - 2023-04-27 13:28 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 09:22 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-28 09:48 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 01:55 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-27 20:18 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Ulf Samuelsson <ulf.r.samuelsson@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 23:03 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 09:58 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 17:45 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 10:00 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 00:21 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 11:43 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Ulf Samuelsson <ulf.r.samuelsson@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 11:10 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 17:26 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 02:14 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 02:19 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-28 14:51 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 16:41 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-29 18:01 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-30 02:37 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 09:02 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-28 15:01 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 16:44 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-29 17:59 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-03 18:16 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-03 09:40 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-04 10:34 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-04 12:31 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 10:51 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-05 12:59 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 18:01 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2023-05-05 19:52 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 23:20 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 11:37 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 23:21 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-08 08:37 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 09:24 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-05 20:16 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 23:17 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 14:27 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-08 08:34 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2023-05-08 13:46 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 09:38 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-08 14:12 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 18:13 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 11:39 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 17:04 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 14:32 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-10 08:55 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-08 19:09 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 17:08 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 07:32 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 18:27 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 11:52 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 16:52 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-09 15:10 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 14:29 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-04 06:21 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 11:02 +0200
Page 4 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4]
| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-09 17:08 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3dnkf$7v64$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31930 |
Il 08/05/2023 21:09, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: >> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: >>>> >>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are >>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety >>>>> precautions. >>>> >>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? >>> >>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of >>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and >>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc. >> >> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and >> simpler not having it at all. > > It's hard to see how the installed cost could cheaper. Using 16V > allows use of much cheaper wire, you don't need to install junction > boxes or conduit, the routing requirements for mains voltages don't > apply, and you don't need a certified electrician to do the work. Yes, of course. Anyway, most of the time the doorbell is installed by the certified electrician during a renovation or during construction of a new building. In this case, you already have a lot of cables and you can share already present conduits and junction boxes. >> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for >> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes. > > There's a junction box on the outside of the house for light switches? Only the frame for push-buttons. Junction boxes are inside the house. On the floor of 2-3 apartments, it could be a junction box for common assets, such as common lights, antennas, elevator and so on. >> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used >> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with >> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a >> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements >> in a frame like this. >> >> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png > > Those switches are on the outside of the house and one of them is the > doorbell button? Outside, not outdoor. Yes, one of this is the pushbutton of the doorbell.
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 07:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7d3ad533-6e3a-4cbb-a8b6-caea461841fen@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31922 |
On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: > > On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > >>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power > >>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. > >>> > >>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? > >>> > >>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. > >>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. > >> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains > >> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary > >> switch out of the door. > >> > >> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf > >> Search for AM5048 > > > > I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. > So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this. https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge. > Here 99% of house > doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you > use directly the mains cables without additional hw. Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling). > The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but > momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room. I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10 The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well. https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/ The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first. > > A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button. > > > In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near > the door, inside the apartment. > > Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are > "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example). > > Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton > that activates the buzzer. > > [1] > https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button. https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell. https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0 Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button. I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button. -- Rick C. --++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 18:27 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3b7su$3qvmt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31925 |
Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto: > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: >>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>>>> >>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? >>>>> >>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. >>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. >>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains >>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary >>>> switch out of the door. >>>> >>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf >>>> Search for AM5048 >>> >>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. >> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? > > LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this. > > https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less. > The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge. Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes. >> Here 99% of house >> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you >> use directly the mains cables without additional hw. > > Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling). See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall. It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example). You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell pushbutton. >> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but >> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room. > > I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box. Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light. There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10 > > The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well. > > https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/ > > The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first. > > >>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button. >>> >> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near >> the door, inside the apartment. >> >> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are >> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example). >> >> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton >> that activates the buzzer. >> >> [1] >> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg > > The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button. > > https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button > > These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell. > > https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0 > > Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button. If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler. However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals. > I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button. > [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 11:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <49b57e83-7761-4e81-b920-00eb9779d61bn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31927 |
On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:29:21 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto: > > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: > >>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > >>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power > >>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. > >>>>> > >>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? > >>>>> > >>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. > >>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. > >>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains > >>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary > >>>> switch out of the door. > >>>> > >>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf > >>>> Search for AM5048 > >>> > >>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. > >> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? > > > > LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this. > > > > https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ > The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less. Yeah, Amazon is often the highest price for various items. The transformer is as little as $8 in local stores. > > The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge. > Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other > cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes. "Routing" typically needs no boxes. You still need a box for the button and for the bell. I'm sure you are not grasping the simplicity of a low voltage doorbell. > >> Here 99% of house > >> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you > >> use directly the mains cables without additional hw. > > > > Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling). > See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall. > It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you > can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the > doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example). Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power supply. > You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell > pushbutton. I have no idea what you are describing. No one I've ever known has high voltage light switches mounted next to the front door with or without a bell button. In fact, it's not allowed to mix low voltage and high voltage in the same box. > >> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but > >> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room. > > > > I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box. > Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light. > There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell. You keep saying that, but you have to put in an unsightly and obtrusive high voltage box, next to your front door. If you want to put other high voltage switches in that, fine, but it doesn't change the need for the high voltage box for the doorbell button. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10 > > > > The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well. > > > > https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/ > > > > The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first. > > > > > >>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button. > >>> > >> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near > >> the door, inside the apartment. > >> > >> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are > >> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example). > >> > >> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton > >> that activates the buzzer. > >> > >> [1] > >> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg > > > > The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button. > > > > https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button > > > > These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell. > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0 > > > > Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button. > If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler. > However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so > you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a > light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals. > > I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button. > > > [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png Why do you keep showing pictures of indoor switches? This has nothing to do with the outside doorbell button. I did find this in your catalog. bronze bell 12 Va.c. - 5 VA - 80 dB -- Rick C. -+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-09 16:52 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3dmn5$7v64$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31929 |
Il 08/05/2023 20:52, Rick C ha scritto: > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:29:21 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto: >>> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: >>>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>>>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>>>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>>>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. >>>>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. >>>>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains >>>>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary >>>>>> switch out of the door. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf >>>>>> Search for AM5048 >>>>> >>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. >>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? >>> >>> LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this. >>> >>> https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ >> The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less. > > Yeah, Amazon is often the highest price for various items. The transformer is as little as $8 in local stores. > > >>> The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge. >> Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other >> cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes. > > "Routing" typically needs no boxes. You still need a box for the button and for the bell. I'm sure you are not grasping the simplicity of a low voltage doorbell. I don't want to defend installations that THEY do here where I live. I'm just describing what usually happens. In the apartment there are already "in-wall" tubes and junction boxes for mains distribution and frames for lights switches. In this case, I think it's worth it to "waste" one module to install a 230Vac buzzer inside and one module to install a 230Vac pushbutton to activate the buzzer outside. During installation of mains circuits you already have 230Vac cables and you can use them for doorbell too. The prices of 230Vac and 12Vac doorbells are similar (see [1] and [2]), with the plus you can avoid an additional power supply/transformer, even if it is cheap. >>>> Here 99% of house >>>> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you >>>> use directly the mains cables without additional hw. >>> >>> Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling). >> See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall. >> It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you >> can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the >> doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example). > > Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power supply. Sorry for misunderstanding. It isn't for outdoor use, it is usually installed "out of the door" of the apartment, but inside a multi-apartment building. Of course, in isolated building where the doorbell switch is really outdoor, you can't use that. >> You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell >> pushbutton. > > I have no idea what you are describing. No one I've ever known has high voltage light switches mounted next to the front door with or without a bell button. In fact, it's not allowed to mix low voltage and high voltage in the same box. When the apartment is one of many in a building (condominium), there's usually a public light on the common part of the floor (balcony? landing?) inside the building. And you could want to switch on when you are outside your apartment. Both the light button and doorbell button are 230Vac, so no mixing. >>>> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but >>>> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room. >>> >>> I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box. >> Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light. >> There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell. > > You keep saying that, but you have to put in an unsightly and obtrusive high voltage box, next to your front door. If you want to put other high voltage switches in that, fine, but it doesn't change the need for the high voltage box for the doorbell button. I don't think this[3] is worse than this[4]. Of course, it depends on personal taste. >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10 >>> >>> The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well. >>> >>> https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/ >>> >>> The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first. >>> >>> >>>>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button. >>>>> >>>> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near >>>> the door, inside the apartment. >>>> >>>> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are >>>> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example). >>>> >>>> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton >>>> that activates the buzzer. >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg >>> >>> The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button. >>> >>> https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button >>> >>> These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell. >>> >>> https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0 >>> >>> Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button. >> If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler. >> However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so >> you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a >> light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals. >>> I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button. >>> >> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png > > Why do you keep showing pictures of indoor switches? This has nothing to do with the outside doorbell button. See above for the misunderstanding. > I did find this in your catalog. > > bronze bell 12 Va.c. - 5 VA - 80 dB Yes, I never said there aren't low voltage buzzers, but they aren't frequently used here. [1] https://amzn.eu/d/8iPOXgt [2] https://amzn.eu/d/b31Lcre [3] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png [4] https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71hYNep5oaL._AC_SL1200_.jpg
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-09 15:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <u3dnq1$dsc$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #31931 |
On 2023-05-09, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: >> Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power >> supply. > > Sorry for misunderstanding. It isn't for outdoor use, it is usually > installed "out of the door" of the apartment, but inside a > multi-apartment building. Of course, in isolated building where the > doorbell switch is really outdoor, you can't use that. Ah, OK. we're talking about doorbells for single-family, detached houses. There's typically a chime mounted on a wall in a central location and one or more buttons (two is very common) wired to that chime. You're talking about apartment buildings. Here in the US, apartment buildings don't use the 16V doorbells we've been describing. They usually have buzzer/intercom/remote-door-lock systems that are completely different than a "doorbell". -- Grant
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-09 14:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <830857cd-4616-4ae0-9b54-6af5cd9ff3b9n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31931 |
On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:53:52 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 08/05/2023 20:52, Rick C ha scritto: > > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:29:21 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >> Il 08/05/2023 16:32, Rick C ha scritto: > >>> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: > >>>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >>>>>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > >>>>>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power > >>>>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. > >>>>>>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. > >>>>>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains > >>>>>> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary > >>>>>> switch out of the door. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf > >>>>>> Search for AM5048 > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. > >>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? > >>> > >>> LOL, when you say "dedicated power supply", you mean this. > >>> > >>> https://www.amazon.com/HQRP-Transformer-Compatible-8v-16v-24v-Replacement/dp/B094DKV9NQ > >> The price on this link is 23 euros, I think a 230Vac doorbell costs less. > > > > Yeah, Amazon is often the highest price for various items. The transformer is as little as $8 in local stores. > > > > > >>> The high voltage side of the transformer is mounted on a proper high voltage box. The rest of the wiring is low voltage, so requires no particular safety precautions. The power is low, so even at the low voltage the wire is not heavy, typically 20 or 22 gauge. > >> Here they usually route the doorbell 230Vac cables together with other > >> cable of electrical system (lightning...) using the same junction boxes. > > > > "Routing" typically needs no boxes. You still need a box for the button and for the bell. I'm sure you are not grasping the simplicity of a low voltage doorbell. > I don't want to defend installations that THEY do here where I live. I'm > just describing what usually happens. > > In the apartment there are already "in-wall" tubes and junction boxes > for mains distribution and frames for lights switches. In this case, I > think it's worth it to "waste" one module to install a 230Vac buzzer > inside and one module to install a 230Vac pushbutton to activate the > buzzer outside. During installation of mains circuits you already have > 230Vac cables and you can use them for doorbell too. I haven't seen you post anything that would be used outside. Worse, you have not explained why there would be a gang switch box outside where the doorbell button would be. Others have asked the same thing, and as far as I can tell, you ignore them as well. > The prices of 230Vac and 12Vac doorbells are similar (see [1] and [2]), You are picking one line item from a single catalog. Price out all the parts required. > with the plus you can avoid an additional power supply/transformer, even > if it is cheap. I don't know what you are talking about. Sorry. You seem to be addressing doorbells with buttons inside your house. We just don't have much of that in the US. > >>>> Here 99% of house > >>>> doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you > >>>> use directly the mains cables without additional hw. > >>> > >>> Doesn't the button require a much more substantial mounting, as well as the bell itself? That's what the low voltage is avoiding. I think my transformer is mounted in the pantry ceiling not unlike a lightbulb (which is also in the pantry ceiling). > >> See [1]. That is a 3-modules frame that can be installed in the wall. > >> It's already compatible with 230Vac push-buttons. With one of this you > >> can have the push-button for an outdoor lamp, a push-button for the > >> doorbell and a keytag reader for anti-burglar system (for example). > > > > Is it for outdoor use??? The only items I found were the 12V power supply. > Sorry for misunderstanding. It isn't for outdoor use, it is usually > installed "out of the door" of the apartment, but inside a > multi-apartment building. > Of course, in isolated building where the doorbell switch is really > outdoor, you can't use that. Yeah, that makes more sense. In the US, older apartments that were made from a single family dwelling, have a number of low voltage buttons on the outside of the main door, or just inside in a foyer. More modern apartments have no doorbells. You just knock on the doors. Works pretty well. We have these things called, "knockers". > >> You don't need an additional substantial mounting dedicated for doorbell > >> pushbutton. > > > > I have no idea what you are describing. No one I've ever known has high voltage light switches mounted next to the front door with or without a bell button. In fact, it's not allowed to mix low voltage and high voltage in the same box. > When the apartment is one of many in a building (condominium), there's > usually a public light on the common part of the floor (balcony? > landing?) inside the building. And you could want to switch on when you > are outside your apartment. Both the light button and doorbell button > are 230Vac, so no mixing. Even in such apartments, we just use low voltage doorbells for all the reasons that have been explained to you. Every part of the system is a lower cost than a 240V bell system. It requires no special consideration for the wiring and can be done by the kid next door, rather than under supervision of a licensed electrician. I don't know why you can't understand this simple matter. > >>>> The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but > >>>> momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room. > >>> > >>> I don't know what that means "normal". Here, all wiring junctions or terminations must be done in an approved box. > >> Yes, of course. The same box used for a switch that turns on a light. > >> There's no need to add a dedicated box for doorbell. > > > > You keep saying that, but you have to put in an unsightly and obtrusive high voltage box, next to your front door. If you want to put other high voltage switches in that, fine, but it doesn't change the need for the high voltage box for the doorbell button. > I don't think this[3] is worse than this[4]. Of course, it depends on > personal taste. Sorry, I don't know what 3 and 4 are. > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUODvOVz10 > >>> > >>> The wire junctions shown here are valid, but not common in the US. Mostly people are used to "wire nuts", which are like this, and work well. > >>> > >>> https://www.cableorganizer.com/categories/electrical-supplies/cable-termination/tan-wire-connector/ > >>> > >>> The mistake that is often made when using them, is to not twist the wires together before twisting the nut on. The nut is not intended to be a mechanical connection, just electrical. So the insulated portion of the wire should be twisted together first. > >>> > >>> > >>>>> A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button. > >>>>> > >>>> In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near > >>>> the door, inside the apartment. > >>>> > >>>> Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are > >>>> "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example). > >>>> > >>>> Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton > >>>> that activates the buzzer. > >>>> > >>>> [1] > >>>> https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg > >>> > >>> The bell itself is not an issue. The PITA is the button. > >>> > >>> https://www.amazon.com/doorbell-push-button/s?k=doorbell+push+button > >>> > >>> These are much easier to mount where they are most convenient. See the small button with the screw terminals? Below is a crude video of a similar button showing the minimal requirements for installation. This guy is upgrading to a video doorbell. > >>> > >>> https://www.google.com/search?q=round+doorbell+button+mounting&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APwXEdfIYgYKthf4KothWTYEIfsvEMSPHg:1683555901893&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2l_e79uX-AhXaMVkFHVUuBuUQ0pQJegQIMBAG&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1132e9ee,vid:N0H1jSUySH0 > >>> > >>> Much simpler and less expensive than running high voltage wiring to the button. > >> If you have only a doorbell pushbutton outdoor, yes it could be simpler. > >> However here usually installs a "normal" in-the-wall 3-modules box, so > >> you can have multiples commodities: doorbell push-button, button for a > >> light and so on. This box is already compatible for 230Vac signals. > >>> I'm wondering if your doorbell has the low voltage transformer inside and the wire to your doorbell is also low voltage? It just makes zero sense to run high voltage to the button. > >>> > >> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png > > > > Why do you keep showing pictures of indoor switches? This has nothing to do with the outside doorbell button. > See above for the misunderstanding. > > I did find this in your catalog. > > > > bronze bell 12 Va.c. - 5 VA - 80 dB > Yes, I never said there aren't low voltage buzzers, but they aren't > frequently used here. Apparently where you live, no one goes outside. All front doors are inside. Nice world. -- Rick C. -++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-04 06:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e95e34cc-b602-4644-8ff8-d6abfe61cbc5n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31905 |
On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 4:34:25 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 03/05/2023 18:40, Rick C ha scritto: > > On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto: > >>> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate. > >>> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the > >>> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps. > >>> > >>> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will > >>> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal PLL to > >>> reach 48MHz). > >>> > >>> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to > >>> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over > >>> temperature and life. > >>> > >>> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in the > >>> range 0-80°C. > >> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give > >> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me. > >> > >> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a > >> tiny for its low cost. > >> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is > >> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that > >> are working now. > >> > >> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the > >> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart. > >> > >> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the > >> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and > >> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is > >> capable to block the tiny. > >> > >> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without > >> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the > >> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success. > >> > >> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the > >> internal oscillator. > >> > >> This is the story. > > > > So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires away from the ATtiny board? > It depends. In some cases it is possible, in other cases it isn't. The > installer isn't usually competent, so it routes cables as he wants. In > some cases, too near my board. After some weeks or months, he complains > the board has blocked. And he is my customer... > > I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to use the internal oscillator. It rather comes down to "pick one". Are any more appealing than the others? If you tell us what you don't like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution? > At the moment we are deciding what could be the best solution. Perhaps you can add an enclosure to your board so cables can not be so near? You could make it look like an EMI shield. Heck, a simple piece of plexiglass mounted a half inch from your board should do the job. Also, it is perfectly acceptable to specify that nothing be within some distance of your board. That is not an unusual thing for sensitive circuits. BTW, do you get the same sort of hang condition if you bring other metal near the oscillators? It may not be an EMI issue at all, but rather a capacitive effect on the oscillator circuit. They often are sensitive to the details of the parasitic values. If you have a resistor in series with the crystal, this might need to be reduced in value, or increased. What circuit does the manufacturer recommend for the oscillator? Can you provide more detail on the nature of the hang? Does the oscillator stop working? Does the frequency shift? Can you measure any of this? Just saying "without success" isn't much to go on. -- Rick C. ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-05 11:02 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u32gn1$2963m$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31907 |
Il 04/05/2023 15:21, Rick C ha scritto: > On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 4:34:25 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 03/05/2023 18:40, Rick C ha scritto: >>> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>>> Il 26/04/2023 16:56, pozz ha scritto: >>>>> I'd like to use async UART to let these MCUs communicate. >>>>> The protocol will be request-response with the request generated by the >>>>> SAM MCU. The baudrate will be 38400bps. >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to use internal oscillator of ATtiny4313, while the SAM will >>>>> use an external 32.768kHz crystal (that is multiplied by internal PLL to >>>>> reach 48MHz). >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure if this scenario can work well. My concerns are related to >>>>> the internal oscillator of ATtiny4313 that hasn't a good accuracy over >>>>> temperature and life. >>>>> >>>>> The tiny MCU will be supplied by 3.3V and its temperature will be in the >>>>> range 0-80°C. >>>> I want to thank all the ones that spent some time to reply and give >>>> suggestions. As usual, they are valuable for me. >>>> >>>> I'm working on a board that is already in production. It was chosen a >>>> tiny for its low cost. >>>> The possibility to mount and use an external ceramic resonator is >>>> available. Moreover it has been really mounted on around 1k boards that >>>> are working now. >>>> >>>> However a few customers reported a problem in a few installations: the >>>> tiny blocks and only a power cycle is able to restart. >>>> >>>> After some tests, we found that the problem is radiated noise on the >>>> pins of the tiny oscillator. When power cables are near the board and >>>> some specific load are connected to these cables, the noise generated is >>>> capable to block the tiny. >>>> >>>> We tried to replace the ceramic resonator with a quartz crystal without >>>> success. We tried to strenghten the GND connection between the >>>> resonator/quartz and the single GND pin of the SOIC20, without success. >>>> >>>> The only change that seems effective in avoiding blocks is using the >>>> internal oscillator. >>>> >>>> This is the story. >>> >>> So I assume there is a reason why you can't route the power wires away from the ATtiny board? >> It depends. In some cases it is possible, in other cases it isn't. The >> installer isn't usually competent, so it routes cables as he wants. In >> some cases, too near my board. After some weeks or months, he complains >> the board has blocked. And he is my customer... >>> I think you have been provided with all the possibilities for how to use the internal oscillator. It rather comes down to "pick one". Are any more appealing than the others? If you tell us what you don't like about it, maybe we can help refine the solution? >> At the moment we are deciding what could be the best solution. > > Perhaps you can add an enclosure to your board so cables can not be so near? You could make it look like an EMI shield. Heck, a simple piece of plexiglass mounted a half inch from your board should do the job. Also, it is perfectly acceptable to specify that nothing be within some distance of your board. That is not an unusual thing for sensitive circuits. Yes, we are thinking about this solutions too. > BTW, do you get the same sort of hang condition if you bring other metal near the oscillators? It may not be an EMI issue at all, but rather a capacitive effect on the oscillator circuit. They often are sensitive to the details of the parasitic values. If you have a resistor in series with the crystal, this might need to be reduced in value, or increased. No problem with capacitive loads. > What circuit does the manufacturer recommend for the oscillator? Ceramic resonator has three pins, two that goes to the oscillator pins of the MCU and one is GND. > Can you provide more detail on the nature of the hang? Does the oscillator stop working? Does the frequency shift? Can you measure any of this? Just saying "without success" isn't much to go on. The program seems stopped. Sincerely I didn't measure the oscilator frequency after the noise, so I don't know if it stopped completely and/or it is disturbed only during the noise. Anyway, the total effect seems a stopped program. I noticed that in some cases, this noise generates strange behaviours: GPIO connected to LED toggle without a reason and so on.
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