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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #31841 > unrolled thread
| Started by | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2023-04-26 16:56 +0200 |
| Last post | 2023-05-05 11:02 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 69 — 8 participants |
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UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 16:56 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-26 17:57 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 22:40 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-04-26 21:00 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 17:20 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 10:15 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 09:26 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 22:44 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-26 17:10 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-27 09:17 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 10:28 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Andrew Smallshaw <andrews@sdf.org> - 2023-04-27 13:28 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 09:22 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-28 09:48 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 01:55 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-27 20:18 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Ulf Samuelsson <ulf.r.samuelsson@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 23:03 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 09:58 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 17:45 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 10:00 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 00:21 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 11:43 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Ulf Samuelsson <ulf.r.samuelsson@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 11:10 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2023-04-28 17:26 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 02:14 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 02:19 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-28 14:51 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 16:41 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-29 18:01 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-30 02:37 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-27 09:02 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-28 15:01 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-04-28 16:44 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-04-29 17:59 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-03 18:16 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-03 09:40 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-04 10:34 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-04 12:31 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 10:51 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-05 12:59 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 18:01 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2023-05-05 19:52 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 23:20 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 11:37 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 23:21 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-08 08:37 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 09:24 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-05 20:16 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 23:17 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-07 14:27 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-05-08 08:34 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2023-05-08 13:46 +0300
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 09:38 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-08 14:12 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 18:13 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 11:39 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 17:04 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 14:32 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-10 08:55 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-08 19:09 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 17:08 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 07:32 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 18:27 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-08 11:52 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 16:52 +0200
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-05-09 15:10 +0000
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-09 14:29 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2023-05-04 06:21 -0700
Re: UART connection between ATSAMD20 and ATtiny4313 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2023-05-05 11:02 +0200
Page 3 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 Next page →
| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-05 18:01 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u33995$29oae$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31910 |
Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto: [...] >> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. > > The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with cameras > - is tiny. In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their exact name, similar to high power buzzers. > I really think something must be wrong with the card if it > is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - crystal > or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. These > are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built > into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator > could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence.
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| From | Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-05 19:52 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <u33c7h$2e23o$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31911 |
On 5/5/2023 19:01, pozz wrote: > Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto: > [...] >>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >> >> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with >> cameras - is tiny. > > In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are > digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their > exact name, similar to high power buzzers. If it is some solenoid driven thing with a mechanical switch it may cause all sorts of interference, depending also on luck - coincidence between button being released, solenoid switch, sine wave peak etc. Try to determine whether the interference which gets you is inductive or capacitive, or if your board is powered off the same lines. Things like that can be tricky to fix, you need to understand the nature of what gets you first.
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-07 23:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u394ns$3h80q$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31912 |
Il 05/05/2023 18:52, Dimiter_Popoff ha scritto: > On 5/5/2023 19:01, pozz wrote: >> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto: >> [...] >>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>> >>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with >>> cameras - is tiny. >> >> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are >> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their >> exact name, similar to high power buzzers. > > If it is some solenoid driven thing with a mechanical switch it may > cause all sorts of interference, depending also on luck - coincidence > between button being released, solenoid switch, sine wave peak etc. > Try to determine whether the interference which gets you is inductive > or capacitive, or if your board is powered off the same lines. > Things like that can be tricky to fix, I saw it... very well. > you need to understand the nature of what gets you first. I will try. It's much more simple to avoid the problem at all disabling internal oscillator.
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-05 11:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9210a85c-3323-45ff-b1a6-a6d785aac81dn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31911 |
On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto: > [...] > >> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power > >> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. > > > > The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with cameras > > - is tiny. > In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are > digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their > exact name, similar to high power buzzers. > > I really think something must be wrong with the card if it > > is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - crystal > > or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. These > > are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built > > into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator > > could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence. You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for the bell. A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI. Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in automotive spark systems? The spark should be in the right place. -- Rick C. ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-07 23:21 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u394pi$3h80q$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31913 |
Il 05/05/2023 20:37, Rick C ha scritto: > On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto: >> [...] >>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>> >>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with cameras >>> - is tiny. >> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are >> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their >> exact name, similar to high power buzzers. >>> I really think something must be wrong with the card if it >>> is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - crystal >>> or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. These >>> are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built >>> into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator >>> could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence. > > You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for the bell. A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI. Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in automotive spark systems? The spark should be in the right place. > Ok, thanks for suggestion.
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 08:37 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3a5au$3q6th$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31917 |
On 07/05/2023 23:21, pozz wrote: > Il 05/05/2023 20:37, Rick C ha scritto: >> On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto: >>> [...] >>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>>> >>>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with >>>> cameras >>>> - is tiny. >>> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are >>> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their >>> exact name, similar to high power buzzers. >>>> I really think something must be wrong with the card if it >>>> is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - crystal >>>> or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. >>>> These >>>> are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built >>>> into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator >>>> could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence. >> >> You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for >> the bell. A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and >> very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI. >> Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in >> automotive spark systems? The spark should be in the right place. >> > > Ok, thanks for suggestion. Another thing to check is exactly where the noise gets into your system. Maybe it is actually coming in through wires (such as power supply wires) connected to your box, rather than directly from the bell wire to the PCB traces. Do you have any connecting wires that might be run parallel to the bell wire, acting as antenna? If so, try a capacitor on those lines as a simple EMC filter.
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 09:24 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3a831$3q8st$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31920 |
Il 08/05/2023 08:37, David Brown ha scritto: > On 07/05/2023 23:21, pozz wrote: >> Il 05/05/2023 20:37, Rick C ha scritto: >>> On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>>> Il 05/05/2023 12:59, David Brown ha scritto: >>>> [...] >>>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>>>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>>>> >>>>> The current used for door bells - even modern monstrosities with >>>>> cameras >>>>> - is tiny. >>>> In my installations they don't use that kind of door bells that are >>>> digital circuits with digital audio output. I don't know what's their >>>> exact name, similar to high power buzzers. >>>>> I really think something must be wrong with the card if it >>>>> is susceptible to interference from such cables. Oscillators - >>>>> crystal >>>>> or ceramic - usually need load capacitors and a damping resistor. >>>>> These >>>>> are small loads (perhaps 15-20 pF and 10 MΩ), and are sometimes built >>>>> into the microcontroller. But if these are missing, your oscillator >>>>> could be unstable and easily affected by outside influence. >>> >>> You are talking about exactly like a buzzer, but with a clapper for >>> the bell. A mechanical switch interrupts the current to the coil and >>> very likely arcs on opening and closing, generating significant EMI. >>> Perhaps you could convince them to add a capacitor like they used in >>> automotive spark systems? The spark should be in the right place. >>> >> >> Ok, thanks for suggestion. > > Another thing to check is exactly where the noise gets into your system. > Maybe it is actually coming in through wires (such as power supply > wires) connected to your box, rather than directly from the bell wire to > the PCB traces. Do you have any connecting wires that might be run > parallel to the bell wire, acting as antenna? If so, try a capacitor on > those lines as a simple EMC filter. My board is not so sensitive. You need to put the cables near my plastic enclosure, exactly over the resonator. If you route the cables far from the resonator/oscillator pins, the problem disappears, even if I tie all the cables together (ring cables and 12Vdc power supply cables of my board).
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-05 20:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <u33o63$olv$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #31908 |
On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: > The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power > (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. -- Grant
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-07 23:17 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u394hs$3h80q$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31914 |
Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. > > People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? > > Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. > I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary switch out of the door. [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf Search for AM5048
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-07 14:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <31a5543f-eb84-4c30-9f9e-d230e55f22dan@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31915 |
On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > > On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power > >> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. > > > > People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? > > > > Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. > > I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. > They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains > voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary > switch out of the door. > > [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf > Search for AM5048 I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button. -- Rick C. --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 08:34 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3a56g$3q6th$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31918 |
On 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C wrote: > On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains >>>> power (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>> >>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the >>> dead? >>> >>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also >>> used. I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think >>> that's uncommon. >> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common >> mains voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a >> momentary switch out of the door. >> >> [1] >> https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf >> Search for AM5048 > > I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are > powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety > precautions. A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on > a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses > much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I > have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the > door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the > button. > Guessing from the URL, he could be in Romania, or a country near enough to use Romanian webshops. I have no idea about the regulations here in Norway, but I know our doorbell has a transformer in the fuse cupboard, so it does not have high voltage mains out to the bell. Driving mains to the doorbell sounds like a safety nightmare. (Mind you, it's one way to deal with annoying kids that ring the bell and run away...)
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| From | Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 13:46 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <u3ajue$3rqlt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31919 |
On 5/8/2023 9:34, David Brown wrote: > On 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C wrote: >> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains >>>>> power (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>>> >>>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the >>>> dead? >>>> >>>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also >>>> used. I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think >>>> that's uncommon. >>> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common >>> mains voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a >>> momentary switch out of the door. >>> >>> [1] >>> https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf >>> Search for AM5048 >> >> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are >> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety >> precautions. A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on >> a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses >> much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I >> have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the >> door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the >> button. >> > > Guessing from the URL, he could be in Romania, or a country near enough > to use Romanian webshops. > > I have no idea about the regulations here in Norway, but I know our > doorbell has a transformer in the fuse cupboard, so it does not have > high voltage mains out to the bell. Driving mains to the doorbell > sounds like a safety nightmare. (Mind you, it's one way to deal with > annoying kids that ring the bell and run away...) Similar here (Bulgaria). When I was a kid starting to try to put together this or that a "doorbell transformer" was a popular option to make some sort of power supply. I think they had a few outputs at the secondary, starting at 6V or something. But even so if the buzzer has nasty solenoids and switches it can cause plenty of interference, who knows.
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 09:38 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3a8t2$3q8ss$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31918 |
Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: > On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 05/05/2023 22:16, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>> On 2023-05-05, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The critical installations often have cables that gives mains power >>>> (230Vac) to coils, for example relays or door ring bell. >>> >>> People use 230VAC for _doorbells_?!?! Are they trying to wake the dead? >>> >>> Here in the US doorbells are usually 16VAC, though 24VAC is also used. >>> I've also seen 10VAC and 12VAC mentioned, but I think that's uncommon. >> They are very common here (for example [1]). 230Vac is the common mains >> voltage so the doorbells are connected to mains, through a momentary >> switch out of the door. >> >> [1] https://comenzielectrice.ro/pdf/Bticino%20-%20Matix%20Catalog.pdf >> Search for AM5048 > > I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety precautions. So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? Here 99% of house doorbells are 230Vac. The installation is much more easy, because you use directly the mains cables without additional hw. The pushbutton that activates the doorbells are a normal button (but momentary) that could be used to activate lights in the room. > A device on a high voltage circuit has to be mounted on a box or has to be a box rated for such wiring. A door bell uses much simpler wiring and needs no special boxes or precautions. I have seen no small number of doorbell buttons mounted directly in the door frame, having been drilled out to 1/2 inch for mounting the button. > In the past, the doorbells were dedicated box mounted on the wall, near the door, inside the apartment. Now they tend to install as a module inside push-button frames that are "inside" the wall ([1] just as an example). Anyway my board is not near the buzzer, but could be near the pushbutton that activates the buzzer. [1] https://www.rmelectric.it/3054-large_default/ronzatore-vimar-plana-230v-bianco-suoneria-campanello-segnalatore-acustico-14378.jpg
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 14:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <u3avvm$1ql$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #31922 |
On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: > Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: > >> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are >> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety >> precautions. > > So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc.
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 18:13 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3b739$3q8ss$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31924 |
Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: >> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: >> >>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are >>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety >>> precautions. >> >> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? > > Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of > far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and > avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc. I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and simpler not having it at all. Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes. Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements in a frame like this. [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 11:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b861e1cc-7d5e-4606-9bba-fd97c5369908n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31926 |
On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > > On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: > >> > >>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are > >>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety > >>> precautions. > >> > >> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? > > > > Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of > > far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and > > avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc. > I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and > simpler not having it at all. LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V. > Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for > example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes. I think you mean "lighting". But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install. > Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used > to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with > push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a > RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements > in a frame like this. You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door. > [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell? -- Rick C. -+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-09 17:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3dncv$7v64$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31928 |
Il 08/05/2023 20:39, Rick C ha scritto: > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: >>>> >>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are >>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety >>>>> precautions. >>>> >>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? >>> >>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of >>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and >>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc. >> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and >> simpler not having it at all. > > LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V. See [1] and [2]. The prices are the same. >> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for >> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes. > > I think you mean "lighting". Yes, sorry. > But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install. I don't want to spend any money for any doorbells ;-) This is what I see, I'm not an expert of mains distribution in buildings and apartments. I'm only supposing that in a new house, where you already have 230Vac tubes and junction boxes and you need one or more light push-buttons out of the door (not outdoor), you can share everything and possibly share some money, considering that 230Vac and 12Vac buzzers are similar in price. >> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used >> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with >> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a >> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements >> in a frame like this. > > You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door. > > >> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png > > Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell? I was thinking to a typical situation here, an apartment in a condominium, a bigger multi-houses building. Your doorbell pushbutton is inside the building and you often need to switch on a lamp. [1] https://amzn.eu/d/8iPOXgt [2] https://amzn.eu/d/b31Lcre
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-09 14:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4cbe8b99-7605-4668-b5ac-f4c1060c7cccn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31932 |
On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 11:06:29 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > Il 08/05/2023 20:39, Rick C ha scritto: > > On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: > >> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto: > >>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: > >>>> > >>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are > >>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety > >>>>> precautions. > >>>> > >>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? > >>> > >>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of > >>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and > >>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc. > >> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and > >> simpler not having it at all. > > > > LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V. > See [1] and [2]. The prices are the same. > >> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for > >> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes. > > > > I think you mean "lighting". > Yes, sorry. > > But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install. > I don't want to spend any money for any doorbells ;-) > This is what I see, I'm not an expert of mains distribution in buildings > and apartments. > > I'm only supposing that in a new house, where you already have 230Vac > tubes and junction boxes and you need one or more light push-buttons out > of the door (not outdoor), you can share everything and possibly share > some money, considering that 230Vac and 12Vac buzzers are similar in price. You literally know nothing of the issues of wiring high voltage vs. low voltage. You keep talking about the buttons in a catalog, without understanding how they are used. I can't spend any more time trying to explain it to you. So, you may hold your ideas dear. > >> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used > >> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with > >> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a > >> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements > >> in a frame like this. > > > > You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door. > > > > > >> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png > > > > Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell? > I was thinking to a typical situation here, an apartment in a > condominium, a bigger multi-houses building. Your doorbell pushbutton is > inside the building and you often need to switch on a lamp. > [1] https://amzn.eu/d/8iPOXgt > [2] https://amzn.eu/d/b31Lcre Ok, Enjoy. -- Rick C. -+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-10 08:55 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u3ff5r$jhqk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #31938 |
Il 09/05/2023 23:32, Rick C ha scritto: > On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 11:06:29 AM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >> Il 08/05/2023 20:39, Rick C ha scritto: >>> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, pozz wrote: >>>> Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >>>>> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are >>>>>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety >>>>>>> precautions. >>>>>> >>>>>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? >>>>> >>>>> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of >>>>> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and >>>>> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc. >>>> I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and >>>> simpler not having it at all. >>> >>> LOL You don't seem to understand. You either have the transformer as a separate entity, or its functionality is incorporated in something more expensive, because it is rated for 240V. >> See [1] and [2]. The prices are the same. >>>> Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for >>>> example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes. >>> >>> I think you mean "lighting". >> Yes, sorry. >>> But you can't lump the doorbell with anything else. At least not in existing construction. It is all irrelevant. Do what you wish. Spend the money on 240V wiring at a dollar a foot and high voltage boxes. That's your choice. But the fact is, the low voltage doorbell is much cheaper to install. >> I don't want to spend any money for any doorbells ;-) >> This is what I see, I'm not an expert of mains distribution in buildings >> and apartments. >> >> I'm only supposing that in a new house, where you already have 230Vac >> tubes and junction boxes and you need one or more light push-buttons out >> of the door (not outdoor), you can share everything and possibly share >> some money, considering that 230Vac and 12Vac buzzers are similar in price. > > You literally know nothing of the issues of wiring high voltage vs. low voltage. You keep talking about the buttons in a catalog, without understanding how they are used. I can't spend any more time trying to explain it to you. So, you may hold your ideas dear. I don't know how we are fighting for this kind of arguments. I don't want to convince you, I'm not a professinal electrician and for me is good what you write. Keep on with embedded things. >>>> Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used >>>> to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with >>>> push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a >>>> RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements >>>> in a frame like this. >>> >>> You put your outside lights on an outside switch? Doesn't happen here, at least not at the front door. >>> >>> >>>> [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png >>> >>> Your photo looks like an indoor switch. Outdoor switches are typically much more robust and sealed from the elements. Which one is the doorbell switch? Or is all this inside the front door and a visitor opens the door to ring the bell? >> I was thinking to a typical situation here, an apartment in a >> condominium, a bigger multi-houses building. Your doorbell pushbutton is >> inside the building and you often need to switch on a lamp. >> [1] https://amzn.eu/d/8iPOXgt >> [2] https://amzn.eu/d/b31Lcre > > Ok, Enjoy. >
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-05-08 19:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <u3bhcv$7go$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #31926 |
On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: > Il 08/05/2023 16:12, Grant Edwards ha scritto: >> On 2023-05-08, pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Il 07/05/2023 23:27, Rick C ha scritto: >>> >>>> I don't know about where you live, but doorbells in the US are >>>> powered from low voltage, so they don't require all the safety >>>> precautions. >>> >>> So you have a dedicated power supply for doorbells? >> >> Yes. A small transformer that costs a couple dollars. It allows use of >> far cheaper wiring and switches than would be required for 120V and >> avoids requirements for approved junction boxes, etc. > > I understand a small transformer is cheap, but anyway it's cheaper and > simpler not having it at all. It's hard to see how the installed cost could cheaper. Using 16V allows use of much cheaper wire, you don't need to install junction boxes or conduit, the routing requirements for mains voltages don't apply, and you don't need a certified electrician to do the work. > Here cables for doorbells are routed together with other cables, for > example for lightning, so they uses the same junction boxes. There's a junction box on the outside of the house for light switches? > Moreover the push-button for the doorbell is identical to the one used > to switch on a lamp. It's not uncommon to have a 230Vac frame with > push-button for doorbell, push-button to activate outdoor lamps and a > RFID reader to disable the anti-burglar system. All these three elements > in a frame like this. > > [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1q0AAOSw7Wtd4lsd/s-l1600.png Those switches are on the outside of the house and one of them is the doorbell button?
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