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Stupid design decisions

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  Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-05 21:14 -0600
    Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-01-06 12:27 -0700
    Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-06 14:51 -0500
    Re: Stupid design decisions Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-06 20:22 +0000
      Re: Stupid design decisions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-08 17:11 +0100
        Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-08 17:10 -0500
          Re: Stupid design decisions Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-01-09 11:30 +0200
            Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 04:58 -0500
              Re: Stupid design decisions Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-01-09 13:10 +0200
              Re: Stupid design decisions Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> - 2017-01-09 11:15 +0000
              Re: Stupid design decisions David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-09 13:48 +0100
          Re: Stupid design decisions Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-08 17:40 -0500
        Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-10 21:42 -0600
    Re: Stupid design decisions Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-01-06 15:33 -0600
    Re: Stupid design decisions Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 12:28 -0800
      Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-01-30 13:52 -0700
        Re: Stupid design decisions Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-30 20:55 +0000
          Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-01-30 14:18 -0700
            Re: Stupid design decisions Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-30 21:20 +0000
              Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-01-30 14:31 -0700
                Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-30 23:37 -0600
                  Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-01-30 23:20 -0700
                  Re: Stupid design decisions Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 22:29 -0800
                  Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-31 02:10 -0500
          Re: Stupid design decisions Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-01-30 22:30 +0100
          Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-31 02:00 -0500
        Re: Stupid design decisions Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 22:18 -0800
          Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-01-30 23:36 -0700
          Re: Stupid design decisions jladasky@itu.edu - 2017-01-31 16:01 -0800
            Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-02 09:47 +0000
              Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-02 06:35 -0500
                Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-02 16:26 -0600
                  Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-02 19:49 -0500
                    Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-03 01:27 -0600
                      Re: Stupid design decisions Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-02-03 07:18 -0600
                        Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-03 10:14 -0700
                          Re: Stupid design decisions Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2017-02-03 10:12 -0800
                            Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-03 14:10 -0700
                            Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-04 11:15 +0000
                              Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-04 13:52 -0700
                                Re: Stupid design decisions Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-02-05 04:36 +0000
                                  Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-04 21:55 -0700
                                    Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-05 21:39 +0000
                                      Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 15:55 -0700
                                        Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-05 23:38 +0000
                                          Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 21:25 -0700
                              Re: Stupid design decisions Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-02-04 17:26 -0600
                                Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-04 16:56 -0700
                          Re: Stupid design decisions Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-02-03 21:40 -0600
                            Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-03 21:48 -0700
                        Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-04 11:03 +0000
                          Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-04 13:00 -0700
                            Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-05 01:49 -0600
                              Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 10:43 -0700
                            Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-05 21:31 +0000
                              Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 15:22 -0700
                                Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-05 23:24 +0000
                                  Re: Stupid design decisions Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-02-06 03:51 +0000
                                    Re: Stupid design decisions Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 10:11 +0000
                                      Re: Stupid design decisions rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 20:07 -0500
                                  Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 21:08 -0700
                  Re: Stupid design decisions mac <acolvin@efunct.com> - 2017-02-04 14:42 +0000
                    Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-05 02:00 -0600
                      Re: Stupid design decisions Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-05 09:11 +0000
                        Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-05 03:51 -0600
                        Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 11:10 -0700
                          Re: Stupid design decisions Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-05 22:22 +0000
                            Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 16:01 -0700
                      Re: Stupid design decisions Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-05 11:03 -0700
      Re: Stupid design decisions Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-30 23:44 -0600

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#25662 — Stupid design decisions

The following is more a vent than anything really constructive, but...

So for the last four days (yes, I got called in New Years day
afternoon), something has been beeping in the computer room.

Let me rephrase that.  A proper beep would have likely been little
more than an annoyance.  No, this was a single, fraction of a second,
fairly high frequency, not very loud, chirp, repeated at odd
intervals, typically in the 5-20 minute range, although with
excursions to the 30s and 2-hour-plus ranges.  And did I mention, the
volume was not particularly consistent?  And it was high enough
pitched that half the people trying to help couldn't hear it at all.

IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
tons of background noise.

I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying to
locate that dang* chirp.

As it turns out, there was a device that had an embedded fan (1.5 inch
muffin), and a temperature sensor.  The fan bearing was going bad (in
a quiet area, removed from the outer enclosure, the bad bearing was
audible, but not at all in the computer room) and cooling was
impacted.  The only sign of the overheat was that dang chirp from a
little magnetic buzzer (an AX-1212-LF, if anyone cares).  Somewhat
amusingly, this is a device rated for 8-12V, and there's nothing more
than 5V headed into the portion of the device where the buzzer was
(and there are mechanically identical 5V and 3V devices in the product
line - AX-1205, AX-1203, for example).  That probably explains part of
both the volume and frequency (the device is supposed to be producing
~2300Hz, but it was at least in the 5kHz range) issues.  The
apparently minimal length of pulse used to trigger it likely explains
the rest.  And did I mention that this buzzer is inside a mostly
enclosed component inside the case of the device?

And no, the overheat does not appear to be reported anywhere (despite
considerable chat between the device and the host system).

I understand the need to not make alarms excessively obnoxious (and
there is a handy little "BUZZER DISABLE" jumper next to the buzzer),
but making them so hard to hear is just absurd.  Clearly no one ever
tried listening to this in any real environment.  There are so many
ways this could have been better.  A simple series of chirps at each
alarm would have made this infinitely easier to trace.  Perhaps having
it repeat at a reasonable interval.  Or a reasonable frequency and
duration.  They went to all this trouble to monitor temperatures, and
then have an alarm, and then made it almost unusable.

Took about 15 minutes to swap in a spare (less than half of which was
screwdriver time).  Now to find a replacement fan to refurb the old
unit.

Ah well.  My apologies for the rant.  Back to the regularly scheduled
program...


*much stronger word removed

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#25677

On 1/5/2017 8:14 PM, Robert Wessel wrote:
> The following is more a vent than anything really constructive, but...
>
> So for the last four days (yes, I got called in New Years day
> afternoon), something has been beeping in the computer room.
>
> Let me rephrase that.  A proper beep would have likely been little
> more than an annoyance.  No, this was a single, fraction of a second,
> fairly high frequency, not very loud, chirp, repeated at odd
> intervals, typically in the 5-20 minute range, although with
> excursions to the 30s and 2-hour-plus ranges.  And did I mention, the
> volume was not particularly consistent?  And it was high enough
> pitched that half the people trying to help couldn't hear it at all.

The duration isn't really important depending on the pitch -- esp
if it is a *fixed* pitch.

To locate a sound source, you need a relatively large spectrum of
frequencies and, ideally, a long enough duration that you can
"focus" your hearing on the signal *as* it persists (or, is thereafter
"reissued" at some predictable interval).

Raleigh opined that time and amplitude differences are resolved in
the brain (by the /superior colliculus/) to provide direction
(elevation and azimuth) information.  The differences in the time
of the wavefront striking each ear (which are displaced by the thickness
of your head!) is a cue that is useful at low frequencies (time translating
to phase) while the difference in amplitude (caused by the "shadowing"
effect that your head represents to the "far" ear) is more pronounced
at high frequencies.

[The shape of the pinnae plays an important, though user-specific, role
as well]

With a pure tone (or, narrow band sound source), there is a locus
("cone of confusion") of vectors along which the *particular* sound
can arrive (for that set of observed stimuli).

Witness how difficult it is to resolve the direction of an approaching
ambulance at a "blind" intersection!  (their sirens tend to operate in a
very narrow band ~500-2000Hz *and* are relatively "reflective" when bounded
by the hard surfaces of building walls, etc.)

> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
> tons of background noise.

A smarter use of "audible annunciators" is to give each a particular
"character" (akin to picking a "ringtone").  So, instead of "something is
beeping", you can mentally *store* the (perhaps non-repeating) observation
as "something is ringing/buzzing/chiming/beeping/etc.".  Then, note what
device(s) can emit the sound having that particular characteristic.

[I use an "audio display" in my current project where users "place"
*specific* individual annunciators in space.  This allows them to
be brief and nonrepeating -- yet allows the user to "remember"
what and where he "heard something" (e.g., "it was a ringing sound
from above and to the left") so that he can analyze the sound after
it has gone.  We tend to have bad "sound memories" so need to be
able to quickly *label* a sound so we can re-CREATE the sound from
its descriptive label instead of actually "playing it back" in an
audio form in our minds.]

> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying to
> locate that dang* chirp.

Try locating a cricket in a locked room!  "I know you're in here
*somewhere*... prepare to die!!"

> As it turns out, there was a device that had an embedded fan (1.5 inch
> muffin), and a temperature sensor.  The fan bearing was going bad (in
> a quiet area, removed from the outer enclosure, the bad bearing was
> audible, but not at all in the computer room) and cooling was
> impacted.  The only sign of the overheat was that dang chirp from a
> little magnetic buzzer (an AX-1212-LF, if anyone cares).  Somewhat
> amusingly, this is a device rated for 8-12V, and there's nothing more
> than 5V headed into the portion of the device where the buzzer was
> (and there are mechanically identical 5V and 3V devices in the product
> line - AX-1205, AX-1203, for example).  That probably explains part of
> both the volume and frequency (the device is supposed to be producing
> ~2300Hz, but it was at least in the 5kHz range) issues.  The

That's the most sensitive region to *hear* the sound but one of the LEAST
sensitive regions to LOCALIZE the sound!

> apparently minimal length of pulse used to trigger it likely explains
> the rest.  And did I mention that this buzzer is inside a mostly
> enclosed component inside the case of the device?
>
> And no, the overheat does not appear to be reported anywhere (despite
> considerable chat between the device and the host system).
>
> I understand the need to not make alarms excessively obnoxious (and
> there is a handy little "BUZZER DISABLE" jumper next to the buzzer),
> but making them so hard to hear is just absurd.  Clearly no one ever
> tried listening to this in any real environment.  There are so many
> ways this could have been better.  A simple series of chirps at each
> alarm would have made this infinitely easier to trace.  Perhaps having
> it repeat at a reasonable interval.  Or a reasonable frequency and
> duration.  They went to all this trouble to monitor temperatures, and
> then have an alarm, and then made it almost unusable.
>
> Took about 15 minutes to swap in a spare (less than half of which was
> screwdriver time).  Now to find a replacement fan to refurb the old
> unit.
>
> Ah well.  My apologies for the rant.  Back to the regularly scheduled
> program...
>
>
> *much stronger word removed
>

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#25678

On 1/5/2017 10:14 PM, Robert Wessel wrote:
> The following is more a vent than anything really constructive, but...
>
> So for the last four days (yes, I got called in New Years day
> afternoon), something has been beeping in the computer room.
>
> Let me rephrase that.  A proper beep would have likely been little
> more than an annoyance.  No, this was a single, fraction of a second,
> fairly high frequency, not very loud, chirp, repeated at odd
> intervals, typically in the 5-20 minute range, although with
> excursions to the 30s and 2-hour-plus ranges.  And did I mention, the
> volume was not particularly consistent?  And it was high enough
> pitched that half the people trying to help couldn't hear it at all.
>
> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
> tons of background noise.
>
> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying to
> locate that dang* chirp.
>
> As it turns out, there was a device that had an embedded fan (1.5 inch
> muffin), and a temperature sensor.  The fan bearing was going bad (in
> a quiet area, removed from the outer enclosure, the bad bearing was
> audible, but not at all in the computer room) and cooling was
> impacted.  The only sign of the overheat was that dang chirp from a
> little magnetic buzzer (an AX-1212-LF, if anyone cares).  Somewhat
> amusingly, this is a device rated for 8-12V, and there's nothing more
> than 5V headed into the portion of the device where the buzzer was
> (and there are mechanically identical 5V and 3V devices in the product
> line - AX-1205, AX-1203, for example).  That probably explains part of
> both the volume and frequency (the device is supposed to be producing
> ~2300Hz, but it was at least in the 5kHz range) issues.  The
> apparently minimal length of pulse used to trigger it likely explains
> the rest.  And did I mention that this buzzer is inside a mostly
> enclosed component inside the case of the device?
>
> And no, the overheat does not appear to be reported anywhere (despite
> considerable chat between the device and the host system).
>
> I understand the need to not make alarms excessively obnoxious (and
> there is a handy little "BUZZER DISABLE" jumper next to the buzzer),
> but making them so hard to hear is just absurd.  Clearly no one ever
> tried listening to this in any real environment.  There are so many
> ways this could have been better.  A simple series of chirps at each
> alarm would have made this infinitely easier to trace.  Perhaps having
> it repeat at a reasonable interval.  Or a reasonable frequency and
> duration.  They went to all this trouble to monitor temperatures, and
> then have an alarm, and then made it almost unusable.
>
> Took about 15 minutes to swap in a spare (less than half of which was
> screwdriver time).  Now to find a replacement fan to refurb the old
> unit.
>
> Ah well.  My apologies for the rant.  Back to the regularly scheduled
> program...

I feel your pain.  I've always thought the high pitched beep is a load 
of crap to begin with.  Surely there are other ways to make a less 
annoying and more easily detected/noticed sound.  When I have a piece of 
gear in a bag making noise, good luck figuring out which bag and which 
piece of gear it is.  When it is such an intermittent thing like a low 
battery warning, well, you only get so long to locate it before it just 
quits.  Or worse, figuring out which of the two smoke detectors are 
emitting a once an hour, single chirp!  One is just above the other, two 
floors with an open balcony.  That drove me nuts for several nights.

Yeah, they really should give a bit more thought to the use cases for 
such alerts.

-- 

Rick C

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#25679

On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
> tons of background noise.
>
> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
> to locate that dang* chirp.

Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
and flames are for...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! FOOLED you!  Absorb
                                  at               EGO SHATTERING impulse
                              gmail.com            rays, polyester poltroon!!

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#25695

On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>> tons of background noise.
>>
>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>
> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
> and flames are for...
>

If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this 
newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are beeping, 
but not yet smoking.

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#25696

On 1/8/2017 11:11 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>>> tons of background noise.
>>>
>>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>>
>> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
>> and flames are for...
>>
>
> If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this
> newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are beeping,
> but not yet smoking.

If you are just trying to find a hot spot, a camera is a bit of 
overkill.  A handheld remote temp sensor is great.  I tried it last 
night and found my porch was 4°F warmer than the yard which was 0°F. 
The sky was either around -56°F or it just said "Lo".  Maybe they should 
have used a few more letters so they could say "F****** Cold".

-- 

Rick C

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#25697

On 09.1.2017 г. 00:10, rickman wrote:
> On 1/8/2017 11:11 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>>>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>>>> tons of background noise.
>>>>
>>>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>>>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>>>
>>> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
>>> and flames are for...
>>>
>>
>> If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this
>> newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are beeping,
>> but not yet smoking.
>
> If you are just trying to find a hot spot, a camera is a bit of
> overkill.  A handheld remote temp sensor is great.  I tried it last
> night and found my porch was 4°F warmer than the yard which was 0°F. The
> sky was either around -56°F or it just said "Lo".  Maybe they should
> have used a few more letters so they could say "F****** Cold".
>

I use the same technique. And it is "f****** cold" here, too; -11 C
last night and was - and is expected to - be worse over the next
few days.
Those IR thermometers are cheap nowadays, mine cost me about $300
back in the day (nearly 20 years ago....), I got it to control the
PCB baking temp when I started using BGA-s. Still in use for that,
and for finding cold spots on windows, doors and walls (to detect
warmth leaks), to measure tea temp (55 C is the highest tolerable
to start drinking, how many people knew that one :), beer temp
during the summer (target being around 5C is probably known by
most people...) etc etc.

Dimiter

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#25698

On 1/9/2017 4:30 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 09.1.2017 г. 00:10, rickman wrote:
>> On 1/8/2017 11:11 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>>>>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>>>>> tons of background noise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>>>>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
>>>> and flames are for...
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this
>>> newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are beeping,
>>> but not yet smoking.
>>
>> If you are just trying to find a hot spot, a camera is a bit of
>> overkill.  A handheld remote temp sensor is great.  I tried it last
>> night and found my porch was 4°F warmer than the yard which was 0°F. The
>> sky was either around -56°F or it just said "Lo".  Maybe they should
>> have used a few more letters so they could say "F****** Cold".
>>
>
> I use the same technique. And it is "f****** cold" here, too; -11 C
> last night and was - and is expected to - be worse over the next
> few days.
> Those IR thermometers are cheap nowadays, mine cost me about $300
> back in the day (nearly 20 years ago....), I got it to control the
> PCB baking temp when I started using BGA-s. Still in use for that,
> and for finding cold spots on windows, doors and walls (to detect
> warmth leaks), to measure tea temp (55 C is the highest tolerable
> to start drinking, how many people knew that one :), beer temp
> during the summer (target being around 5C is probably known by
> most people...) etc etc.

I don't know where you are, but I thought most of Europe drank warm 
beer.  I know they do in England.  A friend was working here and 
couldn't stand drinking cold beer.  He'd ask the bartender to find a 
case in the hallway that wasn't refrigerated.

-- 

Rick C

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#25699

On 09.1.2017 г. 11:58, rickman wrote:
> On 1/9/2017 4:30 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> On 09.1.2017 г. 00:10, rickman wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2017 11:11 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>>>>>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>>>>>> tons of background noise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>>>>>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
>>>>> and flames are for...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this
>>>> newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are
>>>> beeping,
>>>> but not yet smoking.
>>>
>>> If you are just trying to find a hot spot, a camera is a bit of
>>> overkill.  A handheld remote temp sensor is great.  I tried it last
>>> night and found my porch was 4°F warmer than the yard which was 0°F. The
>>> sky was either around -56°F or it just said "Lo".  Maybe they should
>>> have used a few more letters so they could say "F****** Cold".
>>>
>>
>> I use the same technique. And it is "f****** cold" here, too; -11 C
>> last night and was - and is expected to - be worse over the next
>> few days.
>> Those IR thermometers are cheap nowadays, mine cost me about $300
>> back in the day (nearly 20 years ago....), I got it to control the
>> PCB baking temp when I started using BGA-s. Still in use for that,
>> and for finding cold spots on windows, doors and walls (to detect
>> warmth leaks), to measure tea temp (55 C is the highest tolerable
>> to start drinking, how many people knew that one :), beer temp
>> during the summer (target being around 5C is probably known by
>> most people...) etc etc.
>
> I don't know where you are, but I thought most of Europe drank warm
> beer.  I know they do in England.  A friend was working here and
> couldn't stand drinking cold beer.  He'd ask the bartender to find a
> case in the hallway that wasn't refrigerated.
>

Oh no, this is not the case in Europe; I am surprised about England,
never been there.
But where I have lived, in Bulgaria and Germany, and I think all the
countries between, beer is supposed to be around 5C. In fact in
Germany I have been told at the bar (must have been in the morning)
"we don't have beer yet, it is still warm".

Dimiter

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#25700

On 09/01/2017 09:58, rickman wrote:

<snip>
>
> I don't know where you are, but I thought most of Europe drank warm
> beer.  I know they do in England.  A friend was working here and
> couldn't stand drinking cold beer.  He'd ask the bartender to find a
> case in the hallway that wasn't refrigerated.
>
Not 'warm', but at cellar temperature, around 13C, and only for ales and 
sometimes ciders.  That's in the UK.  By and large, the rest of Europe 
drinks cold lager.

SWMBO isn't a Brit, and one of her visiting US cousin was put off by her 
telling him that our beer was 'warm'.  It isn't, he missed out.

Cheers
-- 
Clive

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#25701

On 09/01/17 10:58, rickman wrote:
> On 1/9/2017 4:30 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> On 09.1.2017 г. 00:10, rickman wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2017 11:11 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>>>>>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>>>>>> tons of background noise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>>>>>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
>>>>> and flames are for...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this
>>>> newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are
>>>> beeping,
>>>> but not yet smoking.
>>>
>>> If you are just trying to find a hot spot, a camera is a bit of
>>> overkill.  A handheld remote temp sensor is great.  I tried it last
>>> night and found my porch was 4°F warmer than the yard which was 0°F. The
>>> sky was either around -56°F or it just said "Lo".  Maybe they should
>>> have used a few more letters so they could say "F****** Cold".
>>>
>>
>> I use the same technique. And it is "f****** cold" here, too; -11 C
>> last night and was - and is expected to - be worse over the next
>> few days.
>> Those IR thermometers are cheap nowadays, mine cost me about $300
>> back in the day (nearly 20 years ago....), I got it to control the
>> PCB baking temp when I started using BGA-s. Still in use for that,
>> and for finding cold spots on windows, doors and walls (to detect
>> warmth leaks), to measure tea temp (55 C is the highest tolerable
>> to start drinking, how many people knew that one :), beer temp
>> during the summer (target being around 5C is probably known by
>> most people...) etc etc.
> 
> I don't know where you are, but I thought most of Europe drank warm
> beer.  I know they do in England.  A friend was working here and
> couldn't stand drinking cold beer.  He'd ask the bartender to find a
> case in the hallway that wasn't refrigerated.
> 

That will depend on the type of beer, as well who is drinking it.  For
more "solid" beers, it is common to have them a little warmer than
fridge temperature (ideally right from the barrel - cooler than room
temperature, but not cold).  Basically, your sense of taste does not
work well on things that are fridge temperature.  So when you are
drinking lager for refreshment, cold is good - but when you are drinking
good stuff for the taste, it needs to be warmer to appreciate it.


See section 10 in the letter here:

<http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/revocation.asp>

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#25805

On 01/08/2017 05:10 PM, rickman wrote:
> On 1/8/2017 11:11 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>>>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>>>> tons of background noise.
>>>>
>>>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>>>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>>>
>>> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
>>> and flames are for...
>>>
>>
>> If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this
>> newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are beeping,
>> but not yet smoking.
>
> If you are just trying to find a hot spot, a camera is a bit of
> overkill.  A handheld remote temp sensor is great.  I tried it last
> night and found my porch was 4°F warmer than the yard which was 0°F. The
> sky was either around -56°F or it just said "Lo".  Maybe they should
> have used a few more letters so they could say "F****** Cold".
>

On a clear night, the sky temperature in the thermal infrared can be 
that low.  In the atmospheric windows it can be 100K, and of course in 
microwaves it's basically just the temperature of the CMB, ~ 2 kelvins.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs



-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

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#25710

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:11:44 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

>On 06/01/17 21:22, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2017-01-06, Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple
>>> of dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing
>>> tons of background noise.
>>>
>>> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying
>>> to locate that dang* chirp.
>>
>> Ah, you wanted to know _where_ the problem was.  That's what the smoke
>> and flames are for...
>>
>
>If you have a good infrared camera around (not /that/ unlikely, in this 
>newsgroup) then it can be useful to spot problems when they are beeping, 
>but not yet smoking.


In this case it would not have helped.  The failed fan bearing and
overheat (and the darn buzzer) was in a unit installed inside the
chassis of a larger device.  The outer device had no cooling issues,
and so would have shown no external hotspots.  The inner device would
not have been producing any more heat than normal, so the thermal load
it passed to the outer device would have been unchanged (the route the
heat took out of the inner device would have changed).

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#25680

On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:14:17 -0600, Robert Wessel wrote:

> The following is more a vent than anything really constructive, but...
> 
> So for the last four days (yes, I got called in New Years day
> afternoon), something has been beeping in the computer room.
> 
> Let me rephrase that.  A proper beep would have likely been little more
> than an annoyance.  No, this was a single, fraction of a second, fairly
> high frequency, not very loud, chirp, repeated at odd intervals,
> typically in the 5-20 minute range, although with excursions to the 30s
> and 2-hour-plus ranges.  And did I mention, the volume was not
> particularly consistent?  And it was high enough pitched that half the
> people trying to help couldn't hear it at all.
> 
> IOW, a signal with very poor directionality, in a room with a couple of
> dozen computers, other electronics, A/C, and whatnot contributing tons
> of background noise.
> 
> I have rarely in my life been so frustrated, as I have been trying to
> locate that dang* chirp.
> 
> As it turns out, there was a device that had an embedded fan (1.5 inch
> muffin), and a temperature sensor.  The fan bearing was going bad (in a
> quiet area, removed from the outer enclosure, the bad bearing was
> audible, but not at all in the computer room) and cooling was impacted. 
> The only sign of the overheat was that dang chirp from a little magnetic
> buzzer (an AX-1212-LF, if anyone cares).  Somewhat amusingly, this is a
> device rated for 8-12V, and there's nothing more than 5V headed into the
> portion of the device where the buzzer was (and there are mechanically
> identical 5V and 3V devices in the product line - AX-1205, AX-1203, for
> example).  That probably explains part of both the volume and frequency
> (the device is supposed to be producing ~2300Hz, but it was at least in
> the 5kHz range) issues.  The apparently minimal length of pulse used to
> trigger it likely explains the rest.  And did I mention that this buzzer
> is inside a mostly enclosed component inside the case of the device?
> 
> And no, the overheat does not appear to be reported anywhere (despite
> considerable chat between the device and the host system).
> 
> I understand the need to not make alarms excessively obnoxious (and
> there is a handy little "BUZZER DISABLE" jumper next to the buzzer), but
> making them so hard to hear is just absurd.  Clearly no one ever tried
> listening to this in any real environment.  There are so many ways this
> could have been better.  A simple series of chirps at each alarm would
> have made this infinitely easier to trace.  Perhaps having it repeat at
> a reasonable interval.  Or a reasonable frequency and duration.  They
> went to all this trouble to monitor temperatures, and then have an
> alarm, and then made it almost unusable.
> 
> Took about 15 minutes to swap in a spare (less than half of which was
> screwdriver time).  Now to find a replacement fan to refurb the old
> unit.
> 
> Ah well.  My apologies for the rant.  Back to the regularly scheduled
> program...
> 
> 
> *much stronger word removed

The incorrect voltage spec may have been the brainchild of someone in 
procurement, or of an incompetent component engineer.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!

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#25717

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 10:13:50 PM UTC-5, robert...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The following is more a vent than anything really constructive, but...
> 
> So for the last four days (yes, I got called in New Years day
> afternoon), something has been beeping in the computer room.
> 

You all read his story. Mine is on the consumer side.
It's short, but a little expensive (cost me about $100 bucks).
So this is my story regarding locating a beeping source. 8^)

So a few years ago I replaced all the smoke detectors in the house.
they were WELL past their useful life (which the manufacturer says
is ten years). Then at Halloween, I did my annual battery replacement.
I also replaced the battery in a separate CO detector in the basement.

All is fine and dandy, that is until a few weeks ago.

We started hearing an intermittent chirp. Clearly the battery low signal.
But I just replaced those with fresh ones! Oh well, can't always
be sure even a new battery is fully charged.

Get a new battery and replace it in the smoke detector.

Seems okay, but not long after... chirp!

Even standing right under the detector I cannot tell the direction.
But maybe it was the CO detector. Replace its battery again.

Seems okay, but not long after... chirp!

Okay, I test by removing the CO detector (it is a plugin unit)
to the upstairs, but still here the chirp downstairs.

Off to the hardware store. I am a little pissed because the
Smoke detector should last 10 years and this was 3 years old.
But they are cheap (<$20).

Put the CO detector back in its place near the furnace.
Install the new smoke detector. Before I finish, ... chirp.
Remove battery from old smoke detector. ... chirp.

Dang! Maybe it was the CO detector.
put old smoke detector back, return new smoke detector to
the hardware store and get a combo detector Smoke AND CO.
(now we are into real money

Install this and remove both old smoke detector and CO detector.

Seems okay,

           but not long after... chirp!

Double Dang!!!

Logically I'm stumped. I cannot tel the location of the chirp
EXCEPT it is clearly down the basement. The only other thing
I can think of that is down there is the furnace.

Call the service company and schedule a visit.
I describe the problem, and he replies,
" didn't they tell you on the phone, there are no speakers or
  beepers in the furnace? Sorry but this is costing you the
  $60 anyway."

At this point, I'm like, "I don't care, I need help."

So together we investigate, and After a few chirps,
we manage to locate the culprit. Under a dust tarp,
on a shelf, is one of the old smoke detectors that
I removed over three years ago!!!

So two rants:

BIG ONE: detector companies, PLEASE change the low battery
signal to something more easily located!!!

Small one: Batteries obviously last more than one year!
(but I am still replacing them yearly, better safe than cheap.)

End of story.
   ed

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#25718

On 1/30/2017 1:28 PM, Ed Prochak wrote:
> So together we investigate, and After a few chirps,
> we manage to locate the culprit. Under a dust tarp,
> on a shelf, is one of the old smoke detectors that
> I removed over three years ago!!!

Yeah, I spent some time the other day chasing down what was obviously
an "alarm clock".  Apparently, only rings for a minute or two, then
self-resets.  So, if you're not in the garage (which is where it was,
sitting in a pile of items to be recycled) when it goes off, you'd
never know!

I figure I've just saved the folks at the recycling plant a hassle or two!

> So two rants:
>
> BIG ONE: detector companies, PLEASE change the low battery
> signal to something more easily located!!!

People KNOW where their smoke detectors are located.  The goal
of the alarm in the detector is to be as loud and annoying as
possible.

> Small one: Batteries obviously last more than one year!

Of course!  You can buy detectors with non-replaceable batteries
(the entire detector is discarded after 10 years)

> (but I am still replacing them yearly, better safe than cheap.)

Yup.  It also gives you a reminder to test the thing and remind
yourself what it sounds like when it sounds off (ours are
combination units so the alarms for smoke and Co are different).
As well as testing the interconnect -- to make sure ALL sound
when *any* sounds!

> End of story.

A $60 leson you will undoubtedly not need to repeat!  :>

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#25719

On 2017-01-30, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> On 1/30/2017 1:28 PM, Ed Prochak wrote:
>
>> BIG ONE: detector companies, PLEASE change the low battery
>> signal to something more easily located!!!
>
> People KNOW where their smoke detectors are located.

The problem isn't that I don't know where the smoke detectors are.
The problem is I don't know which of the half-dozen of them is upset.

This could be solved easily with an LED...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I think my career
                                  at               is ruined!
                              gmail.com            

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#25720

On 1/30/2017 1:55 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-01-30, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>> On 1/30/2017 1:28 PM, Ed Prochak wrote:
>>
>>> BIG ONE: detector companies, PLEASE change the low battery
>>> signal to something more easily located!!!
>>
>> People KNOW where their smoke detectors are located.
>
> The problem isn't that I don't know where the smoke detectors are.
> The problem is I don't know which of the half-dozen of them is upset.
>
> This could be solved easily with an LED...

One of the LEDs on each of our detectors "chirps" coincident with
the battery test.  I think the actual circuitry "hibernates" most
of the time and only powers up, runs the test (for smoke/CO/battery)
then powers down, again.

So, stand under the detector and listen for chirp -- verify it
coincides with LED flash... or, move on to next detector!

[I think there is also a way to determine which detector is
signalling the alarm (when one is detected) so you don't have to
unplug each of them to locate the offender]

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#25721

On 2017-01-30, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> On 1/30/2017 1:55 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2017-01-30, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 1/30/2017 1:28 PM, Ed Prochak wrote:
>>>
>>>> BIG ONE: detector companies, PLEASE change the low battery
>>>> signal to something more easily located!!!
>>>
>>> People KNOW where their smoke detectors are located.
>>
>> The problem isn't that I don't know where the smoke detectors are.
>> The problem is I don't know which of the half-dozen of them is upset.
>>
>> This could be solved easily with an LED...
>
> One of the LEDs on each of our detectors "chirps" coincident with
> the battery test.  I think the actual circuitry "hibernates" most of
> the time and only powers up, runs the test (for smoke/CO/battery)
> then powers down, again.
>
> So, stand under the detector and listen for chirp -- verify it
> coincides with LED flash... or, move on to next detector!

If they only chirp once every 15-20 minutes, that can be frustrating.

And they always _start_ the chirping in the middle of the night....

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! But they went to MARS
                                  at               around 1953!!
                              gmail.com            

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#25723

On 1/30/2017 2:20 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-01-30, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>> On 1/30/2017 1:55 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2017-01-30, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/2017 1:28 PM, Ed Prochak wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> BIG ONE: detector companies, PLEASE change the low battery
>>>>> signal to something more easily located!!!
>>>>
>>>> People KNOW where their smoke detectors are located.
>>>
>>> The problem isn't that I don't know where the smoke detectors are.
>>> The problem is I don't know which of the half-dozen of them is upset.
>>>
>>> This could be solved easily with an LED...
>>
>> One of the LEDs on each of our detectors "chirps" coincident with
>> the battery test.  I think the actual circuitry "hibernates" most of
>> the time and only powers up, runs the test (for smoke/CO/battery)
>> then powers down, again.
>>
>> So, stand under the detector and listen for chirp -- verify it
>> coincides with LED flash... or, move on to next detector!
>
> If they only chirp once every 15-20 minutes, that can be frustrating.

Ours run a "cycle" every minute or so.

What's annoying is that they signal battery failure even though they are AC/DC
units (yeah, I need to know when the battery is in need of replacement; but
it doesn't need to be so INSISTENT given that primary power is still
available!)

> And they always _start_ the chirping in the middle of the night....

Of course!  Or, when the weather is lousy (we don't "stock" spare
batteries).

Hence the practice of replacing all batteries on New Year's Eve...
(or, pick some other "memorable day")

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