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[OT] Embedded Linux hosts sharing Ethernet broadcast domains with two IP subnets

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  [OT] Embedded Linux hosts sharing Ethernet broadcast domains with two IP subnets pozzugno@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 15:55 -0700
    Re: [OT] Embedded Linux hosts sharing Ethernet broadcast domains with two IP subnets Ivan Shmakov <ivan@ribog.ahpci.iadu.net> - 2017-03-31 06:12 +0000
    Re: [OT] Embedded Linux hosts sharing Ethernet broadcast domains with two IP subnets Mikko OH2HVJ <mikko.syrjalahti@nospam.fi> - 2017-03-31 09:20 +0300
    Re: [OT] Embedded Linux hosts sharing Ethernet broadcast domains with two IP subnets David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-31 09:29 +0200
    Re: [OT] Embedded Linux hosts sharing Ethernet broadcast domains with two IP subnets edward.ming.lee@gmail.com - 2017-03-31 21:10 -0700

#26352 — [OT] Embedded Linux hosts sharing Ethernet broadcast domains with two IP subnets

I think this is little OT here, because the question is mostly network oriented. However my nodes will be Linux embedded boxes and some solutions could be very low-level, so I think many of you could help me in some way.

I have N Ethernet hosts based on embedded Linux. Each one features an Ethernet interface dedicated to the final user that could change the IP address configuration. On that interface a Web server responds. All the nodes will be configured on the same subnet and conected to a switch.

Now I need to make an "internal" communication among those hosts. With the work "internal" I mean the user should ignore the presence of this communication and relevant details (it should not be necessarily invisible to a traffic monitoring tools).
For example, when the user changes the IP address of host 1, the new IP address shouldn't be configured in host 2 too and the internal communication between host 1 and 2 should continue without interruption.

I thought about three possible solution, but I'm not a netowrk guru.

The first is to add other logical IP addresses (aliases) used for internal communication only. Those IP addresses will be hardcoded and never changed by whoever. The user will be able to configure only the main IP address for each host. Is this could work with a simple switch? I think yes, because the switch looks at the MAC address and doesn't see the IP addresses.
Anyway I don't know what negative effects could be when the same broadcast domain is shared by two different subnet (internal, with hardcoded and fixed IP addresses, and external, configurable by the user as he wants).

Another solution is to implement the internal communication staying at level 2, so avoiding IP addresses, but using only MAC addresses. I could invent a proprietary layer 2 protocol. This could avoid any conflict with IP addresses customized by the user, but there are some disadvantages.
How host 1 could know the MAC address of host 2 for internal communication? It could be written during delivery of the system, but replacing one host on the field could be difficult (the MAC address of replaced host should be changed on the other nodes). I could invent a proprietary broadcast ARP protocol (what is MAC address of **host 2**).
In order to avoid the issue of knowing the MAC address of other hosts for internal communication, I could invent a L2 protocol made by all broadcast frames, considering it will a low-bandwidth protocol.

The third solution is using VLANs, but I don't know if they can be useful in my case. Indeed, I couldn't use static (port-based) VLAN, because I will have two VLANs on the same switch ports. Anyway I should have two IP addressed on each host (as in the first solution).

Other suggestions?

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#26355

>>>>> pozzugno@gmail.com writes:

        [Cross-posting to news:comp.protocols.tcp-ip, as the issue at
        hand seems more on-topic there.  Apologies for some over-quoting
        to preserve context.]

 > I think this is little OT here, because the question is mostly
 > network oriented.  However my nodes will be Linux embedded boxes and
 > some solutions could be very low-level, so I think many of you could
 > help me in some way.

 > I have N Ethernet hosts based on embedded Linux.  Each one features
 > an Ethernet interface dedicated to the final user that could change
 > the IP address configuration.  On that interface a Web server
 > responds.  All the nodes will be configured on the same subnet and
 > conected to a switch.

 > Now I need to make an "internal" communication among those hosts.
 > With the work "internal" I mean the user should ignore the presence
 > of this communication and relevant details (it should not be
 > necessarily invisible to a traffic monitoring tools).

 > For example, when the user changes the IP address of host 1, the new
 > IP address shouldn't be configured in host 2 too and the internal
 > communication between host 1 and 2 should continue without
 > interruption.

 > I thought about three possible solution, but I'm not a network guru.

 > The first is to add other logical IP addresses (aliases) used for
 > internal communication only.  Those IP addresses will be hardcoded
 > and never changed by whoever.  The user will be able to configure
 > only the main IP address for each host.  Is this could work with a
 > simple switch?  I think yes, because the switch looks at the MAC
 > address and doesn't see the IP addresses.  Anyway I don't know what
 > negative effects could be when the same broadcast domain is shared by
 > two different subnet (internal, with hardcoded and fixed IP
 > addresses, and external, configurable by the user as he wants).

	There're none that I know of.  The only trouble to watch out for
	is the user (accidentally) configuring the "main" address that
	matches the "internal" network.

 > Another solution is to implement the internal communication staying
 > at level 2, so avoiding IP addresses, but using only MAC addresses.
 > I could invent a proprietary layer 2 protocol.  This could avoid any
 > conflict with IP addresses customized by the user, but there are some
 > disadvantages.

	JFYI, there're already MAC-based IPv6 "link-local" addresses --
	which, unless you've configured your kernel differently, are
	probably already available.  Consider, for example:

$ ip addr list 
...
2: eno1: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast
 state UP group default qlen 1000
    link/ether D0:BA:98:76:54:32 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
...
    inet6 fe80::D2BA:98ff:fe76:5432/64 scope link
       valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
...
$ ping6 -n -c 3 -- fe80::D2BA:98ff:fe76:5432%eno1 ; ## that is, local host
PING fe80::D2BA:98ff:fe76:5432%eno1(fe80::D2BA:98ff:fe76:5432%eno1) 56 data bytes
64 bytes from fe80::D2BA:98ff:fe76:5432%eno1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.020 ms
...
3 packets transmitted, 3 received, 0% packet loss, time 2042ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.020/0.026/0.030/0.006 ms
$ 

	(Note that the exact interface to use -- eno1 in this case --
	needs to be specified when referring to these addresses.)

 > How host 1 could know the MAC address of host 2 for internal
 > communication?  It could be written during delivery of the system,
 > but replacing one host on the field could be difficult (the MAC
 > address of replaced host should be changed on the other nodes).
 > I could invent a proprietary broadcast ARP protocol (what is MAC
 > address of **host 2**).  In order to avoid the issue of knowing the
 > MAC address of other hosts for internal communication, I could invent
 > a L2 protocol made by all broadcast frames, considering it will a
 > low-bandwidth protocol.

	There're already a number of "service discovery" protocols
	available.  You may want to check [1] and follow from there.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicast_DNS

[...]

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  58F8 0F47 53F5 2EB2 F6A5  8916 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

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#26356

pozzugno@gmail.com writes:

> The first is to add other logical IP addresses (aliases) used for
> internal communication only. Those IP addresses will be hardcoded and
> never changed by whoever. The user will be able to configure only the
> main IP address for each host. Is this could work with a simple
> switch? I think yes, because the switch looks at the MAC address and
> doesn't see the IP addresses.

This method works very well and is easy to set up. You can set up eth0:1
with static address in your internal between-nodes address space and
eth0:0 with DHCP to provide the web UI.

Using layer 2 or VLANs is much more complicated, especially if you've
got limited network experience.

One interesting application for VLANs is that if you can use a PHY chip that
has integrated switch and VLAN support so that on the CPU you have only
one MII with VLANs and you route different VLANs to different ports on
the switch, effectively creating multiple separated ethernet interfaces
for an embedded system.

--
mikko

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#26358

On 31/03/17 00:55, pozzugno@gmail.com wrote:
> I think this is little OT here, because the question is mostly
> network oriented. However my nodes will be Linux embedded boxes and
> some solutions could be very low-level, so I think many of you could
> help me in some way.

You might get more details in comp.os.linux.networking.

> 
> I have N Ethernet hosts based on embedded Linux. Each one features an
> Ethernet interface dedicated to the final user that could change the
> IP address configuration. On that interface a Web server responds.
> All the nodes will be configured on the same subnet and conected to a
> switch.
> 
> Now I need to make an "internal" communication among those hosts.
> With the work "internal" I mean the user should ignore the presence
> of this communication and relevant details (it should not be
> necessarily invisible to a traffic monitoring tools). For example,
> when the user changes the IP address of host 1, the new IP address
> shouldn't be configured in host 2 too and the internal communication
> between host 1 and 2 should continue without interruption.
> 
> I thought about three possible solution, but I'm not a netowrk guru.
> 
> The first is to add other logical IP addresses (aliases) used for
> internal communication only. Those IP addresses will be hardcoded and
> never changed by whoever. The user will be able to configure only the
> main IP address for each host. Is this could work with a simple
> switch? I think yes, because the switch looks at the MAC address and
> doesn't see the IP addresses. Anyway I don't know what negative
> effects could be when the same broadcast domain is shared by two
> different subnet (internal, with hardcoded and fixed IP addresses,
> and external, configurable by the user as he wants).

That will work fine, as long as your "internal" network does not collide
with the users network addresses.  Pick something in the 10.x.y.z range,
rather than 192.168.x.y.  Also consider just using IPv6 here.

As you note the traffic will not be invisible to monitoring tools - it
is easy to hack into this traffic.

> 
> Another solution is to implement the internal communication staying
> at level 2, so avoiding IP addresses, but using only MAC addresses. I
> could invent a proprietary layer 2 protocol. This could avoid any
> conflict with IP addresses customized by the user, but there are some
> disadvantages. How host 1 could know the MAC address of host 2 for
> internal communication? It could be written during delivery of the
> system, but replacing one host on the field could be difficult (the
> MAC address of replaced host should be changed on the other nodes). I
> could invent a proprietary broadcast ARP protocol (what is MAC
> address of **host 2**). In order to avoid the issue of knowing the
> MAC address of other hosts for internal communication, I could invent
> a L2 protocol made by all broadcast frames, considering it will a
> low-bandwidth protocol.

That would be theoretically possible, but a great deal of work.  Don't
bother.

> 
> The third solution is using VLANs, but I don't know if they can be
> useful in my case. Indeed, I couldn't use static (port-based) VLAN,
> because I will have two VLANs on the same switch ports. Anyway I
> should have two IP addressed on each host (as in the first
> solution).
> 

VLANs have a lot of uses, but in a case like this you would have to make
sure that the switches involved are at least VLAN aware, even if they
are not configured with specific VLAN setups.  Standard cheap Ethernet
switches don't pass through packets with VLAN tags.

> Other suggestions?
> 

Your first suggestion is fine.

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#26359

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 3:55:55 PM UTC-7, pozz...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think this is little OT here, because the question is mostly network oriented. However my nodes will be Linux embedded boxes and some solutions could be very low-level, so I think many of you could help me in some way.
> 
> I have N Ethernet hosts based on embedded Linux. Each one features an Ethernet interface dedicated to the final user that could change the IP address configuration. On that interface a Web server responds. All the nodes will be configured on the same subnet and conected to a switch.
> 
> Now I need to make an "internal" communication among those hosts. With the work "internal" I mean the user should ignore the presence of this communication and relevant details (it should not be necessarily invisible to a traffic monitoring tools).
> For example, when the user changes the IP address of host 1, the new IP address shouldn't be configured in host 2 too and the internal communication between host 1 and 2 should continue without interruption.
> 
> I thought about three possible solution, but I'm not a netowrk guru.
> 
> The first is to add other logical IP addresses (aliases) used for internal communication only. Those IP addresses will be hardcoded and never changed by whoever. The user will be able to configure only the main IP address for each host. Is this could work with a simple switch? I think yes, because the switch looks at the MAC address and doesn't see the IP addresses.
> Anyway I don't know what negative effects could be when the same broadcast domain is shared by two different subnet (internal, with hardcoded and fixed IP addresses, and external, configurable by the user as he wants).
> 
> Another solution is to implement the internal communication staying at level 2, so avoiding IP addresses, but using only MAC addresses. I could invent a proprietary layer 2 protocol. This could avoid any conflict with IP addresses customized by the user, but there are some disadvantages.
> How host 1 could know the MAC address of host 2 for internal communication? It could be written during delivery of the system, but replacing one host on the field could be difficult (the MAC address of replaced host should be changed on the other nodes). I could invent a proprietary broadcast ARP protocol (what is MAC address of **host 2**).
> In order to avoid the issue of knowing the MAC address of other hosts for internal communication, I could invent a L2 protocol made by all broadcast frames, considering it will a low-bandwidth protocol.
> 
> The third solution is using VLANs, but I don't know if they can be useful in my case. Indeed, I couldn't use static (port-based) VLAN, because I will have two VLANs on the same switch ports. Anyway I should have two IP addressed on each host (as in the first solution).
> 
> Other suggestions?

I think what you need is a VPN (merging two subnets), and not to reinvent the wheel.

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