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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #30035 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-10-29 20:17 -0700 |
| Last post | 2020-11-18 03:20 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 81 — 23 participants |
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Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-10-29 20:17 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-10-29 23:52 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-10-30 10:19 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-10-31 00:21 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2020-10-30 17:56 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-10-30 20:40 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Philip Martel <pmartel@alum.mit.edu> - 2020-10-31 14:54 -0400
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-04 20:13 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2020-11-13 17:10 -0600
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-15 19:43 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2020-11-16 19:31 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-17 01:50 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2020-11-17 11:14 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2020-11-18 04:14 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-11-17 12:05 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-17 10:06 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-11-17 16:02 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-11-17 22:28 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-11-18 11:11 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2020-11-18 12:40 +0200
Re: Good Hardware Tools Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-11-18 14:51 +0200
Re: Good Hardware Tools Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-11-18 21:46 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-11-18 22:29 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-18 12:45 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-11-18 21:08 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-11-19 00:35 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2020-11-18 16:12 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 17:30 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-18 23:36 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-11-19 22:31 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-19 14:43 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-11-20 22:13 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-20 18:01 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools James Brakefield <jim.brakefield@ieee.org> - 2020-11-21 11:39 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 03:15 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-11-17 22:25 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2020-11-17 16:30 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-17 14:18 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-23 13:39 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-23 07:49 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-24 08:53 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-24 10:46 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-24 13:46 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-27 08:11 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-27 06:58 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-11-27 10:17 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-27 08:04 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-28 17:04 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-11-28 09:54 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-28 09:05 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-29 17:30 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 11:10 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-30 08:19 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-30 07:46 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-12-06 17:55 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-12-06 15:04 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2021-01-03 11:03 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 09:03 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 04:09 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2021-01-04 21:57 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-01-04 02:55 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-11-28 20:53 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-28 15:16 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-11-28 20:57 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-28 18:07 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2020-11-29 10:43 +0200
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 11:00 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-30 08:01 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-30 07:40 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-11-30 15:41 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-29 15:22 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 11:04 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-11-29 14:46 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-29 15:11 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-11-29 23:24 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 17:57 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-30 08:32 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-30 08:03 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-16 13:13 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2020-11-17 22:56 -0600
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 03:20 -0800
Page 4 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 Next page →
| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-04 02:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rsuonc$ljd$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30243 |
On 1/3/2021 4:03 AM, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > Well, I've measured the fridge's energy use for 25 days. Extrapolated to > a year it used 118 kWh, let's say 130 because in summer our kitchen is > warmer. > It ran 38% of the time. If I take freezer and cooler volume together (330 > liter), then it comes out to 0.39 kWh per liter per year. That would be a tiny refrigerator, here (USA). Ours is ~600L and it's just "modest" in size (two people). It's old so not terribly efficient -- ~800KWHr/yr. OTOH, it doesn't cost us much to run (~$8/month) -- any one of my servers or workstations (+ monitors) easily consumes more on an annual basis (as they have considerably higher operating duty cycles). And, of course, with a 9-10 month cooling season, money spent to cool FOOD is negligible compared to what it costs to keep PEOPLE cool!
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-28 20:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rpudcv$mqo$2@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #30150 |
On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > ><snip> >> >>How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two >>compartments when using a single compressor? Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator and there are two completely separate thermostats. > I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > years old Bosch) did it too. Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. -- Grant
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-28 15:16 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <746bd308-f65a-411b-9c0d-eaa9aae5b655n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30153 |
On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > > ><snip> > >> > >>How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two > >>compartments when using a single compressor? > Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know > mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator > and there are two completely separate thermostats. > > I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > > years old Bosch) did it too. > Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. -- Rick C. +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-28 20:57 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <meDwH.15542$Cc5.9524@fx36.iad> |
| In reply to | #30154 |
On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: >> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >>> >>> <snip> >>>> >>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two >>>> compartments when using a single compressor? >> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know >> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator >> and there are two completely separate thermostats. >>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >>> years old Bosch) did it too. >> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > > That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. > You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the demands.
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-28 18:07 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <0d830bba-f3af-4a55-835f-71893b42d38fn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30155 |
On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: > On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: > > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: > >> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > >>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >>> > >>> <snip> > >>>> > >>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two > >>>> compartments when using a single compressor? > >> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know > >> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator > >> and there are two completely separate thermostats. > >>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > >>> years old Bosch) did it too. > >> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > > > > That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. > > > You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate > cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to > select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the > demands. That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. -- Rick C. ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 10:43 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rpvn06$3bo$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30156 |
On 29.11.20 4.07, Rick C wrote: > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: >>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: >>>> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >>>>> >>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two >>>>>> compartments when using a single compressor? >>>> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know >>>> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator >>>> and there are two completely separate thermostats. >>>>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >>>>> years old Bosch) did it too. >>>> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. >>> >>> That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. >>> >> You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate >> cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to >> select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the >> demands. > > That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. > There is the gain: you can keep the fridge slightly above freezing and the freeze side well frozen if there are two cooling systems. A single-compressor unit relies on suitable thermal leak out of the fridge side to keep the temperature difference between the compartments. -- -TV
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 11:00 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <f65c49f0-dc0c-478b-9ca1-c19dcea071b0n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30157 |
On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 3:43:55 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote: > On 29.11.20 4.07, Rick C wrote: > > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: > >> On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: > >>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: > >>>> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > >>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> <snip> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two > >>>>>> compartments when using a single compressor? > >>>> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know > >>>> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator > >>>> and there are two completely separate thermostats. > >>>>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > >>>>> years old Bosch) did it too. > >>>> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > >>> > >>> That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. > >>> > >> You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate > >> cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to > >> select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the > >> demands. > > > > That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. > > > There is the gain: you can keep the fridge slightly above freezing > and the freeze side well frozen if there are two cooling systems. > A single-compressor unit relies on suitable thermal leak out of > the fridge side to keep the temperature difference between the > compartments. Yes, an adjustable leak, although I think you are ignoring that the refrigerator compartment is where the thermostat is typically located. The adjustment process is to set the temperature of the refrigerator and adjust the damper to control the portion of cooling that reaches the refrigerator compartment with the rest remaining to cool the freezer. Adjust the damper to give the desired freezer temperature. The point is unless there is some reason why this won''t work in a particular case, the added cost of the multiple thermal zone is unwarranted. -- Rick C. ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-30 08:01 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkm1hs0.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30166 |
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:00:36 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 3:43:55 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote: >> On 29.11.20 4.07, Rick C wrote: >> > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: >> >> On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: >> >>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: >> >>>> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >> >>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> <snip> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two >> >>>>>> compartments when using a single compressor? >> >>>> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know >> >>>> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator >> >>>> and there are two completely separate thermostats. >> >>>>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >> >>>>> years old Bosch) did it too. >> >>>> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. >> >>> >> >>> That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. >> >>> >> >> You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate >> >> cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to >> >> select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the >> >> demands. >> > >> > That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain.. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. >> > >> There is the gain: you can keep the fridge slightly above freezing >> and the freeze side well frozen if there are two cooling systems. >> A single-compressor unit relies on suitable thermal leak out of >> the fridge side to keep the temperature difference between the >> compartments. > >Yes, an adjustable leak, although I think you are ignoring that the refrigerator compartment is where the thermostat is typically located. The adjustment process is to set the temperature of the refrigerator and adjust the damper to control the portion of cooling that reaches the refrigerator compartment with the rest remaining to cool the freezer. Adjust the damper to give the desired freezer temperature. > >The point is unless there is some reason why this won''t work in a particular case, the added cost of the multiple thermal zone is unwarranted. Well, one case is where you want seperate control in temperature of freeze and cool section. I've looked at a brochure, and in almost all cases the simpler fridges only let you adjust the temperature of the cooling secion. The freeze section is only specified as "3=1 stars" or so. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-30 07:40 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <dffeabfd-0895-412f-88b1-72847b98d6ddn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30172 |
On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 2:01:10 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:00:36 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > >On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 3:43:55 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote: > >> On 29.11.20 4.07, Rick C wrote: > >> > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: > >> >> On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: > >> >>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: > >> >>>> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > >> >>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> <snip> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two > >> >>>>>> compartments when using a single compressor? > >> >>>> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know > >> >>>> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator > >> >>>> and there are two completely separate thermostats. > >> >>>>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > >> >>>>> years old Bosch) did it too. > >> >>>> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > >> >>> > >> >>> That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. > >> >>> > >> >> You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate > >> >> cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to > >> >> select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the > >> >> demands. > >> > > >> > That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain.. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. > >> > > >> There is the gain: you can keep the fridge slightly above freezing > >> and the freeze side well frozen if there are two cooling systems. > >> A single-compressor unit relies on suitable thermal leak out of > >> the fridge side to keep the temperature difference between the > >> compartments. > > > >Yes, an adjustable leak, although I think you are ignoring that the refrigerator compartment is where the thermostat is typically located. The adjustment process is to set the temperature of the refrigerator and adjust the damper to control the portion of cooling that reaches the refrigerator compartment with the rest remaining to cool the freezer. Adjust the damper to give the desired freezer temperature. > > > >The point is unless there is some reason why this won''t work in a particular case, the added cost of the multiple thermal zone is unwarranted. > Well, one case is where you want seperate control in temperature of > freeze and cool section. I've looked at a brochure, and in almost all > cases the simpler fridges only let you adjust the temperature of the > cooling secion. The freeze section is only specified as "3=1 stars" > or so. Sorry, I don't know what "3=1 stars" means. A separate set of coils and thermostat is not needed to maintain a different temperature in the freezer. My refrigerator is doing it quite well. The timer cut it off for three hours this morning and it maintained the freezer at 3°F(-16°C) and the fridge at 40°F (~4°C). Pretty amazing that a simple appliance can regulate two temperatures at once! -- Rick C. -++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-30 15:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rq33rn$qgd$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30172 |
On 11/30/20 07:01, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:00:36 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >> On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 3:43:55 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote: >>> On 29.11.20 4.07, Rick C wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: >>>>>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: >>>>>>> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven<mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two >>>>>>>>> compartments when using a single compressor? >>>>>>> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know >>>>>>> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator >>>>>>> and there are two completely separate thermostats. >>>>>>>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >>>>>>>> years old Bosch) did it too. >>>>>>> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. >>>>>> >>>>>> That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. >>>>>> >>>>> You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate >>>>> cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to >>>>> select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the >>>>> demands. >>>> >>>> That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain.. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. >>>> >>> There is the gain: you can keep the fridge slightly above freezing >>> and the freeze side well frozen if there are two cooling systems. >>> A single-compressor unit relies on suitable thermal leak out of >>> the fridge side to keep the temperature difference between the >>> compartments. >> >> Yes, an adjustable leak, although I think you are ignoring that the refrigerator compartment is where the thermostat is typically located. The adjustment process is to set the temperature of the refrigerator and adjust the damper to control the portion of cooling that reaches the refrigerator compartment with the rest remaining to cool the freezer. Adjust the damper to give the desired freezer temperature. >> >> The point is unless there is some reason why this won''t work in a particular case, the added cost of the multiple thermal zone is unwarranted. > > Well, one case is where you want seperate control in temperature of > freeze and cool section. I've looked at a brochure, and in almost all > cases the simpler fridges only let you adjust the temperature of the > cooling secion. The freeze section is only specified as "3=1 stars" > or so. > > Mat Nieuwenhoven > > We have separate machines for fridge and freezer, which allows a lot more choice of format and location. Freezer is in another room, with the fridge under the worktop in the kitchen. If one fails, you don't lose everything. Less efficient I guess, but more convenient. Both are well over ten years old, but don't get obsessed over power consumption... Chris
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 15:22 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkkr9w1.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30154 |
On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 15:16:07 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: >> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >> > On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >> > >> ><snip> >> >> >> >>How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two >> >>compartments when using a single compressor? >> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know >> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator >> and there are two completely separate thermostats. >> > I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >> > years old Bosch) did it too. >> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > >That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. They really do have a single compressor, control is fully electronic, and whatever they use for separate control must make it worthwhile, they seem to use less energy judging from the brochures. Only the cheapest fridges have a single mechanical control on the cooler compartment. Seperate controls also mean that freezing in a large numer of goods doesn't affect the cool compartment's temperature. I don't know what you'd call expensive, ours was less than 800 euro's. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 11:04 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <4791be54-bc2e-49f2-80db-01d4df2e276bn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30164 |
On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 9:22:50 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 15:16:07 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: > >> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > >> > On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >> > > >> ><snip> > >> >> > >> >>How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two > >> >>compartments when using a single compressor? > >> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know > >> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator > >> and there are two completely separate thermostats. > >> > I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > >> > years old Bosch) did it too. > >> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > > > >That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. > They really do have a single compressor, control is fully electronic, > and whatever they use for separate control must make it worthwhile, > they seem to use less energy judging from the brochures. Only the > cheapest fridges have a single mechanical control on the cooler > compartment. Seperate controls also mean that freezing in a large > numer of goods doesn't affect the cool compartment's temperature. > > I don't know what you'd call expensive, ours was less than 800 > euro's. I haven't bought a fridge in over 30 years, so I have no idea what is cheap. The point is how much of that 800 Euros went to paying for the added technology? What did you get for it? I bet you would have to add instrumentation to tell the difference. In other words, no observable benefit. -- Rick C. --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 14:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rq14rk$84v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30164 |
On 11/29/2020 7:22 AM, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > They really do have a single compressor, control is fully electronic, Of course! You don't put a separate FURNACE in each zone of a multizoned home/office! They operate on exactly the same principle as the minisplits that are increasingly common -- why cool an entire home to the same temperature when you're likely only using certain rooms at certain times of day? Put a single compressor/condenser on the roof (or on a slab beside the house) and run separate evaporators to each zone/room. The advantage of having more than two "zones" (in a refrigerator) lies in how you use each. Do you want more freezer space, today? Or cooling space? Do you want to have a compartment that is considerably colder than the normal freezer and contains rarely accessed items (so you can leave that air volume completely sealed for most of the time)? And, of course, each evaporator only has to deal with a much smaller volume instead of having to support "leakage" to a large volume. > and whatever they use for separate control must make it worthwhile, > they seem to use less energy judging from the brochures. Only the > cheapest fridges have a single mechanical control on the cooler > compartment. Seperate controls also mean that freezing in a large > numer of goods doesn't affect the cool compartment's temperature. Exactly. And, if you have a separate compartment (in addition to the normal freezer) that you can use for that purpose, then the already *frozen* foods don't "suffer" from the introduction of nearby "room temperature" goods. [When I make Marinara/Bolognese sauce, I have to chill the containers (16 qts) in an ice bath before introducing them to the freezer as freezers aren't designed to handle such large, HOT loads. And, you want to be able to quickly cool such things to avoid the growth of pathogens.] > I don't know what you'd call expensive, ours was less than 800 > euro's. It is not uncommon to see refrigerators selling for $2K - $4K in big-box stores.
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 15:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkkqrv0.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30153 |
On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: >On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >> >><snip> >>> >>>How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two >>>compartments when using a single compressor? > >Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know >mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator >and there are two completely separate thermostats. > >> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >> years old Bosch) did it too. > >Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. I did not see a second compressor. There was one at the back, with on top a kind of dish that caught the condensation runoff from the cooler department via a hole, had to clean it once. The compressor was at the level of the highest freeze drawer, which was shorter than the other two. There must have been some valves controlling when a compartment got cooling. The control was fully electronic on a single PCB board. I never heard different noises too, I think if there are two compressors that at some times you'de hear both instead of one. My current fridge also has a single compressor. I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more energy. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 23:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rq1aj6$lvo$2@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #30163 |
On 2020-11-29, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: >>Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > > I did not see a second compressor. [...] > > I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two > compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more > energy. Maybe they just have two evaporator circuits and I've always misunderstood the brochure descriptions as meaning that there are two compressors. -- Grant
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 17:57 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <e92be639-c72d-4d9c-8374-c654bacb3fa1n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30170 |
On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2020-11-29, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: > > >>Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > > > > I did not see a second compressor. [...] > > > > I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two > > compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more > > energy. > Maybe they just have two evaporator circuits and I've always > misunderstood the brochure descriptions as meaning that there are two > compressors. If they have a single compressor, it would be sized to match the coils... but which one? What happens if one compartment demands cooling while the other is already demanding cooling. Are both coils driven? If not, does one compartment continue to warm up while the other compartment is cooled? If both coils are connected to the single compressor at the same time, is the design optimized for working with both coils or just one? Having two evaporators seems like a poor compromise no matter how you look at it. Two compressors is a lot more expensive, but would work most efficiently and effectively which I thought was the point of using two evaporator coils. I don't see anything wrong with using a single compressor circuit with it cooling both the freezer and fridge. I've had mine on a power monitor for a day now and it seems to run most of the time at around 170 watts. I noticed overnight it cut off every couple of hours for about a half hour. I've also seen the power spike significantly, then dip for a half hour or so. I think that's the defrost cycle. It was accidentally turned off for a couple of hours today and the inside temperatures barely changed. Tomorrow the power monitor (which is actually a power timer switch) will cut if off from 6am to 9am. I'll measure the temp at 9am. I don't know if I can download a record of the usage. I should check. It keeps detailed info for a day and daily numbers for a month, then monthly data for a year. No, looks like no downloading possible. -- Rick C. -+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-30 08:32 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkm2yp2.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30171 |
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 17:57:42 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: >> On 2020-11-29, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >> > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: >> >> >>Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. >> > >> > I did not see a second compressor. [...] >> > >> > I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two >> > compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more >> > energy. >> Maybe they just have two evaporator circuits and I've always >> misunderstood the brochure descriptions as meaning that there are two >> compressors. > >If they have a single compressor, it would be sized to match the coils... but which one? What happens if one compartment demands cooling while the other is already demanding cooling. Are both coils driven? If not, does one compartment continue to warm up while the other compartment is cooled? If both coils are connected to the single compressor at the same time, is the design optimized for working with both coils or just one? I bet boith coils are driven. There is a "super freeze" mode on it which you can use to cool down the freeze section quickly if you filled it completely with unfrozen food; that times out after 65 hours. I've never used it on our current fridge, but on the old one twice or so, and the cooling section stayed on the temperature as set.as >Having two evaporators seems like a poor compromise no matter how you look at it. Two compressors is a lot more expensive, but would work most efficiently and effectively which I thought was the point of using two evaporator coils. I don't see anything wrong with using a single compressor circuit with it cooling both the freezer and fridge. Two compressors are rare. It must be one compressor with two coils. If the freeze section is below the cool section (which is the vast majority) , there cannot be air leak (cold doesn't move upwards) unless there is a ventilator to move the air around. >I've had mine on a power monitor for a day now and it seems to run most of the time at around 170 watts. I noticed overnight it cut off every couple of hours for about a half hour. I've also seen the power spike significantly, then dip for a half hour or so. I think that's the defrost cycle. It was accidentally turned off for a couple of hours today and the inside temperatures barely changed. Tomorrow the power monitor (which is actually a power timer switch) will cut if off from 6am to 9am. I'll measure the temp at 9am. I don't know if I can download a record of the usage. I should check. It keeps detailed info for a day and daily numbers for a month, then monthly data for a year. No, looks like no downloading possible. Seriously, 170 W and running most of the time? That could be 1000 kWh per year. Ours runs shortly every few hours, I have not timed it but it seems to be off most of the time. I'll see if there's a cheap logging power monitor to be had, just to log how often and long it runs. The actual energy use I can measure, but that device is in use for this week. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-30 08:03 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <bc7fbe4f-d455-49b4-b7d7-30a1c8769791n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30174 |
On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 2:32:54 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 17:57:42 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > >On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: > >> On 2020-11-29, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > >> > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: > >> > >> >>Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. > >> > > >> > I did not see a second compressor. [...] > >> > > >> > I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two > >> > compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more > >> > energy. > >> Maybe they just have two evaporator circuits and I've always > >> misunderstood the brochure descriptions as meaning that there are two > >> compressors. > > > >If they have a single compressor, it would be sized to match the coils... but which one? What happens if one compartment demands cooling while the other is already demanding cooling. Are both coils driven? If not, does one compartment continue to warm up while the other compartment is cooled? If both coils are connected to the single compressor at the same time, is the design optimized for working with both coils or just one? > I bet boith coils are driven. There is a "super freeze" mode on it > which you can use to cool down the freeze section quickly if you > filled it completely with unfrozen food; that times out after 65 > hours. I've never used it on our current fridge, but on the old one > twice or so, and the cooling section stayed on the temperature as > set.as How does that make any sense? If both coils are always driven, that is like having only one coil, the ratio of cooling is fixed. In fact, it is worse because with one coil a damper is used to control how much cooling applies to each compartment, adjustable by the user. With two coils always driven there's no way to change the apportioning. I have no idea what your super freeze mode might be doing if the two compartments have no air flow between them there is no way for the second coil to help cool the freezer. What are you talking about? > >Having two evaporators seems like a poor compromise no matter how you look at it. Two compressors is a lot more expensive, but would work most efficiently and effectively which I thought was the point of using two evaporator coils. I don't see anything wrong with using a single compressor circuit with it cooling both the freezer and fridge. > Two compressors are rare. It must be one compressor with two coils. > If the freeze section is below the cool section (which is the vast > majority) , there cannot be air leak (cold doesn't move upwards) > unless there is a ventilator to move the air around. I don't know why you say the "vast majority" of units put the freezer in the bottom. Here very few units have the freezer in the bottom... VERY few. They are either freezer in top or side by side with tall skinny doors. A fan is not uncommon. My freezer in top uses a fan to improve heat exchange and it provides adjustable cooling to the lower refrigerator via the damper. > >I've had mine on a power monitor for a day now and it seems to run most of the time at around 170 watts. I noticed overnight it cut off every couple of hours for about a half hour. I've also seen the power spike significantly, then dip for a half hour or so. I think that's the defrost cycle. It was accidentally turned off for a couple of hours today and the inside temperatures barely changed. Tomorrow the power monitor (which is actually a power timer switch) will cut if off from 6am to 9am. I'll measure the temp at 9am. I don't know if I can download a record of the usage. I should check. It keeps detailed info for a day and daily numbers for a month, then monthly data for a year. No, looks like no downloading possible. > Seriously, 170 W and running most of the time? That could be 1000 kWh > per year. Ours runs shortly every few hours, I have not timed it but > it seems to be off most of the time. I'll see if there's a cheap > logging power monitor to be had, just to log how often and long it > runs. The actual energy use I can measure, but that device is in use > for this week. Yes, I agree, you have not timed it so you don't know how much it runs. My fridge is over 30 years old and may be having problems. A few months ago when the weather was warmer it was not keeping cold enough. I've been paying closer attention because of this. $156 is what I estimate annually. What I've read is the typical unit runs a third of the time. So I could save around $100 a year. -- Rick C. +--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-16 13:13 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <87lff1huot.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #30070 |
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes: > I'm considering replacing my fridge because the web says buying a new > one will save enough electricity to pay for itself in five years or > less. It's 30 years old too. New fridges are more efficient because they use smaller motors that spin at higher rpm, apparently. Why that makes them more efficient, I have no idea, but that's what the fridge installer guy told me. Anyway, the higher rpm makes them noisier. I do think the energy savings can be pretty substantial. I have a smallish but full height household fridge and it uses 150W when the motor is running, which is about 1/3 of the time, so 50W average. My mom's fridge is bigger but nowhere near twice as big, and I'm told (haven't measured because my kill-a-watt broke) that it uses 300+ watts when running.
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| From | kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-17 22:56 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <7rKdndElHMHjNCnCnZ2dnUU7-XvNnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #30070 |
In article <1cfad111-9bba-408a-8168-a9221891ec1dn@googlegroups.com>, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote: >On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:11:08 PM UTC-5, Kent Dickey wrote: >> It looks like the PicoScope 6000 new is 5GSa/s at 500MHz with 2 channels >> for $6916. The 25 year old HP equipment is almost as good (half the >> sampling rate) for 1/10th the price. >> >Thanks for the suggestions. I used one of those HP logic analyzers >complete with a floppy disk drive, MANY years ago. You picked the top >end PicoScope to compare to. The problem is the HP16500 would barely >fit in my car without breaking an axle while the PicoScope will fit in >my computer bag! I picked the cheapest PicoScope that seemed to match the HP capabilities. It is not the most expensive PicoScope. That seems to be the PicoScope 9400 at $19,495, but it does 2.5TSa/sec sampling with 16GHz bandwidth (looks like it's for PCIe-type signals). It's called SXRTO, and I'm not really familiar with how they work (it's strongly implied they are "cheating" at the sampling rate). The HP scope bandwidth is 500MHz, and that's out of the range of cheap scopes. PicoScope does give you 5GSa/sec (compared to HP 2GSa/sec), but that's just because they don't have a 2GSa/sec scope. But you can't look at fast edges (say 1ns) on a scope with 100MHz bandwidth since it filtered all the signal of interest away. It's probably passable on a scope with 300MHz of bandwidth (PicoScope says the rise time of signals can be < 1.3ns for 300MHz bandwidth, and < 850ps for 500MHz. That feels about right). That moves the PicoScope price down to $4556. I also didn't include the scope probe price, which is $300-$389 for two. This HP equipment is heavy, but it can be carried by one person. It's basically the size of a full-size PC tower with about 30% more depth. It runs off 110V with a "normal" plug, so it's not that bad power-wise. Running it for an hour even if it drew a continous 15Amp (and it does not) would only be 1.6kWhours = 40 cents. I generally only need a scope for a few hours at a time. If you need a more portable scope, with fewer features, old legacy versions of these also are available, I just don't know anything about them. Kent
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