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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #10572 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-11-24 17:41 +0100 |
| Last post | 2012-11-26 00:08 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 153 — 47 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.arch.embedded
Getting started with AVR and C Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> - 2012-11-24 17:41 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2012-11-24 09:55 -0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 10:39 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-11-24 18:03 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-10 13:21 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-12-10 18:33 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-11 12:34 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-24 12:44 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:12 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-24 11:28 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:42 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-25 07:01 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 20:14 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 03:18 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 04:18 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-11-24 17:09 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-24 22:12 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2012-11-24 21:01 -0800
statement / expression contexts in C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 12:54 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 13:37 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-28 14:49 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2012-11-28 17:53 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 18:05 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 12:56 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-28 21:45 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 15:55 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-29 01:35 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 01:47 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:24 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 01:18 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 20:07 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:23 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 11:01 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 19:19 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 14:32 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 11:44 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 21:23 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:15 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 09:26 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 13:22 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 14:10 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:16 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-11-30 17:36 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:18 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 10:08 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 00:45 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ed Beroset <beroset@mindspring.com> - 2012-12-01 08:00 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 13:22 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-01 17:33 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 17:43 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-02 14:13 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-04 20:34 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-04 18:25 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 07:55 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:11 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-05 07:52 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 11:02 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 21:28 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:21 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:05 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2012-12-05 23:22 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2012-12-06 00:00 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:17 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:10 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-06 07:15 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 21:52 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-12-06 20:59 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-06 12:38 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 20:39 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 22:31 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-12-05 16:32 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-05 17:04 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 22:01 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-12-06 14:05 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-06 10:28 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 16:58 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 07:34 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 10:55 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rich Webb <bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> - 2012-12-06 11:11 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rocky <RobertGush@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 21:38 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-07 03:49 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 02:58 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 17:28 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 11:55 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:17 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 12:36 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-11-29 16:22 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:36 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2012-12-11 10:53 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-11 14:53 +0000
Unicode Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-12-14 23:25 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 14:30 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 12:24 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 18:02 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 15:45 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-16 22:55 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-16 23:20 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:27 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 11:17 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 14:07 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2012-12-16 03:28 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-16 10:40 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 02:31 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 03:36 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 03:55 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-11-28 23:24 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:37 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:31 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 13:44 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 13:22 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:32 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:28 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:20 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:07 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:17 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-11-29 18:25 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 22:46 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-11-30 11:47 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:38 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 15:21 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 22:26 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 17:32 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 19:02 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 18:29 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:39 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-29 00:59 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 07:57 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-29 13:02 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:19 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-29 12:03 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:39 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 08:04 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:17 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:19 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:44 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 13:15 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2012-11-28 19:17 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:30 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:29 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 16:36 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:40 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 13:55 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 22:06 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 14:22 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 21:59 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-30 08:29 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-11-25 05:41 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rosario1903 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-27 10:21 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dbr@kbrx.com - 2012-11-24 21:49 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C MK <mk@nospam.co.uk> - 2012-11-25 12:24 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-11-26 00:08 +0000
Page 3 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 Next page →
| From | me@linnix.info-for.us |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-11-30 14:10 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <32910adc-de50-4ad2-aeb0-f86cd1587db0@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #10667 |
On Friday, November 30, 2012 1:22:12 PM UTC-8, Jon Kirwan wrote: > On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:26:39 -0800 (PST), > > me@linnix.info-for.us wrote: > > > > >> I believe that C was implemented on the PDP-10. I didn't use > > >> it when I was programming the PDP-10 (I used assembly, then, > > >> and some other languages... but not C, until I worked on Unix > > >> v6 in '78.) But that was a 36-bit machine. And ASCII was > > >> packed into 7 bits so that 5 chars fit in a word. No one used > > >> 8, so far as I recall. That was the standard method. So I'm > > >> curious now what the C implementation did. > > > > > >For Unix, serial I/O was as important as efficient storage of data. > > > > Given the cost of memory back then, primary or secondary, a > > great many man-hours were spent on efficient storage. Serial > > I/O was almost exclusively used because of how modems worked, > > then, for transmission over long distances. (Some may argue > > that it requires fewer wires, too, in cables. But that was > > less an issue then -- witness the 36-pin and 25-pin Centronix > > cables/connectors which were very wire-heavy.) It turns out > > that terminals, like the ASR-33 and KSR-35, were often used > > without a computer for dial-up modem use over a phone line. > > So they used a serial interface, by design. Which meant that > > Unix needed to cope with it. But I wouldn't say "as important > > as." I worked on the v6 Unix kernel, so I was slightly aware > > of the situation. > But one (perhaps unwritten) goal was for uniform files and I/Os. So, the lowest denominator (8 bits) is necessary.
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-11-30 15:16 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <qefib8t18f74m682ie9032avcj7nvek1cq@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10668 |
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:10:25 -0800 (PST), me@linnix.info-for.us wrote: ><snip> > But one (perhaps unwritten) goal was for uniform files and > I/Os. So, the lowest denominator (8 bits) is necessary. No. It could have been, had this been an IBM machine, that the lowest common denominator was something else. The 8-bit choice was a confluence of many factors, not just a simple deduction that was "obvious." I know. Because I remember wondering, and having debates, about where this would wind up in the end. It wasn't "necessary." If it was, we'd all have seen it that way at the time. And we didn't. Jon
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-11-30 17:36 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <k9bcde$qr4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #10667 |
Jon Kirwan wrote: > Of course, I was just bringing up the PDP-10 because of its > odd way of packing 7-bit codes into a 36-bit word. Yes. Odd. But compact; for data processing you can see their reasons. Elsewhere, like the GE Datanet-30 communication proccessor, ASCII in a nine- bit byte meant you could stuff a start bit, 7 data bits and parity into one byte-wide buffer register. Shifting in ones as the data bits shifted out meant that (unless somebody intervened by loading another character) you'd be left with 0777 after the character was transmitted, and thus you'd be driving an idle line as long as needed. Mel.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-11-30 15:18 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <lkfib897g94mnf47nd44tdhs31i6cp803d@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10669 |
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 17:36:28 -0500, Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> wrote: >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> Of course, I was just bringing up the PDP-10 because of its >> odd way of packing 7-bit codes into a 36-bit word. > >Yes. Odd. But compact; for data processing you can see their reasons. >Elsewhere, like the GE Datanet-30 communication proccessor, ASCII in a nine- >bit byte meant you could stuff a start bit, 7 data bits and parity into one >byte-wide buffer register. Shifting in ones as the data bits shifted out >meant that (unless somebody intervened by loading another character) you'd >be left with 0777 after the character was transmitted, and thus you'd be >driving an idle line as long as needed. > > Mel. Thanks for this note, Mel! Jon
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-01 10:08 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <sbdjb8drle3muhn1s2o8qdi3t4n86lt0qb@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10667 |
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:22:12 -0800, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>Most serial terminal can't do more than 8 bits, and usually 7E or 7O. >>So, 8 bit char became standard. If you think about a mechanical typewriter or line printer, how on earth would you fit a large character set into it ? Being able to print numbers was of course the most needed feature, printing a very limited set of (upper case) letters was a bonus and some special characters like + or - would also be a bonus. The English language can be represented with only a few letters, but even most Latin based languages needed some extra characters and these were taken in ISO 646 from the special character sets, thus square brackets were replaced by national variants. On a line printer you typically had a 64 (upper case only) or 96 (with lower case) character drums and you had to order a drum made for your non-anglosaxon country. > >At the time, there was no real standard at all. I saw equal >numbers of machines using EBCDIC and 6-bit (5-bit Boudot was >waning by this time but I also remember old terminals that >used 5-bit) and 7-bit. Baudot 5 bit was of course popular due to the huge number of Telex terminals that existed in those days. Manchester Mark I used Baudot for this reason. Later on 36 bits was quite common, capable of storing six 6 bit (upper case only) characters or nine 4 bit BCD decimal digits (sufficient for storing non-inflated dollar values in a single memory word. >No machine used 8-bit for anything, >then. The 8th bit was always just looked at as either 'don't >punch it at all, so the paper tape is more durable' or else >make it even or odd parity. Some of us would write programs >to punch out visible English messages on the tape, which was >one of the few reasons we actually wanted control over 8 bits >(for those paper punch machines that punched 8.) If you forgot to immediately mark your paper tapes with a pen or some easily recognizable punch figures, you were in great troubles :-) However 5x7 upper case characters was the norm for dot matrix displays, so I think 7 controllable bits would be enough ? >Side note: there was only a gradual "coming together" on the >idea that an 8-bit byte was a "good idea." I think a lot of >people these days imagine that it was always as obvious and >as ubiquitous as it is today. But that's not entirely true. >Things went to 8-bit, gradually. Partly, because 8 bits is a >nice 2^3 power thing and partly because ASCII was gradually >taking over as a standard and would fit into a 8-bit byte, >nicely. There was a confluence of forces going on and this >kind of "precipitated out" to what it is today. Computers were originally exclusively used for numerical calculations and because of the extremely costly division operation in converting a true binary value into human printable decimal digits, many computers used decimal digits internally represented as 4 bit BCD numbers internally (ENIAC was a true decimal machine with tubes with ten active electrodes). Thus 4 bit is as natural as 8 bits, both power of 2. Later on, when the prices came down and it made sense to use larger memory and processor widths, the ability to store nine BCD digits into a 36 bit word made this architecture popular for financial transactions at that time. As the memory prices came down, people also wanted to store texts in computer memory. Storing six 6 bit characters was quite obvious. However, IBM in their 360 (all around) series chose to use two 4 bit BCD numbers to store one character and hence the popularity of the 8 bit byte. >Side note again: Recently, I read a "personal history" >talking about the complexity of the ASR-33. The author has no >idea. I also remember quite well the much more complicated >KSR-35. I worked on repairing both, from time to time. By >comparison, the ASR-33 was a toy, designed for less lifetime >and less complex, as well. The earlier KSR-35 was made for >men, so to speak -- extremely well lubricated system with >real man-parts and not toy pieces. The ASR-33 had a cute >little cylinder with the letters on it, not that unlike the >typewriter ball. The KSR-35 had a large hammer block, >instead. > >Jon After all these years, I hove always wondered, how such excellent examples of mechanical engineering could work more than an hour without maintenance. These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant current supply :-).
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-01 00:45 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <bufjb8h7dfjp7galdfmv1apeqdsedijkm3@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10672 |
On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:22:12 -0800, Jon Kirwan ><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>>Most serial terminal can't do more than 8 bits, and usually 7E or 7O. >>>So, 8 bit char became standard. > >If you think about a mechanical typewriter or line printer, how on >earth would you fit a large character set into it ? > >Being able to print numbers was of course the most needed feature, >printing a very limited set of (upper case) letters was a bonus and >some special characters like + or - would also be a bonus. > >The English language can be represented with only a few letters, but >even most Latin based languages needed some extra characters and these >were taken in ISO 646 from the special character sets, thus square >brackets were replaced by national variants. > >On a line printer you typically had a 64 (upper case only) or 96 (with >lower case) character drums and you had to order a drum made for your >non-anglosaxon country. > >> >>At the time, there was no real standard at all. I saw equal >>numbers of machines using EBCDIC and 6-bit (5-bit Boudot was >>waning by this time but I also remember old terminals that >>used 5-bit) and 7-bit. > >Baudot 5 bit was of course popular due to the huge number of Telex >terminals that existed in those days. Manchester Mark I used Baudot >for this reason. > >Later on 36 bits was quite common, capable of storing six 6 bit (upper >case only) characters or nine 4 bit BCD decimal digits (sufficient for >storing non-inflated dollar values in a single memory word. > >>No machine used 8-bit for anything, >>then. The 8th bit was always just looked at as either 'don't >>punch it at all, so the paper tape is more durable' or else >>make it even or odd parity. Some of us would write programs >>to punch out visible English messages on the tape, which was >>one of the few reasons we actually wanted control over 8 bits >>(for those paper punch machines that punched 8.) > >If you forgot to immediately mark your paper tapes with a pen or some >easily recognizable punch figures, you were in great troubles :-) > >However 5x7 upper case characters was the norm for dot matrix >displays, so I think 7 controllable bits would be enough ? We wanted to be able to UNDERLINE stuff!! Very important! Or to get a better lowercase feeling you used that line for a little bit of a descender-feeling. >>Side note: there was only a gradual "coming together" on the >>idea that an 8-bit byte was a "good idea." I think a lot of >>people these days imagine that it was always as obvious and >>as ubiquitous as it is today. But that's not entirely true. >>Things went to 8-bit, gradually. Partly, because 8 bits is a >>nice 2^3 power thing and partly because ASCII was gradually >>taking over as a standard and would fit into a 8-bit byte, >>nicely. There was a confluence of forces going on and this >>kind of "precipitated out" to what it is today. > >Computers were originally exclusively used for numerical calculations >and because of the extremely costly division operation in converting a >true binary value into human printable decimal digits, many computers >used decimal digits internally represented as 4 bit BCD numbers >internally (ENIAC was a true decimal machine with tubes with ten >active electrodes). > >Thus 4 bit is as natural as 8 bits, both power of 2. > >Later on, when the prices came down and it made sense to use larger >memory and processor widths, the ability to store nine BCD digits >into a 36 bit word made this architecture popular for financial >transactions at that time. > >As the memory prices came down, people also wanted to store texts in >computer memory. Storing six 6 bit characters was quite obvious. > >However, IBM in their 360 (all around) series chose to use two 4 bit >BCD numbers to store one character and hence the popularity of the 8 >bit byte. A second thing I recall was the battle between hex and octal. But once the 8-bit thing caught on... octal was doomed. I still use octal for one reason... I have a very simple method of converting back and forth between octal and decimal that I do on paper. I've posted it before. But it is a lost art for most. Still, I find it more practical than using hex, when converting by hand. >>Side note again: Recently, I read a "personal history" >>talking about the complexity of the ASR-33. The author has no >>idea. I also remember quite well the much more complicated >>KSR-35. I worked on repairing both, from time to time. By >>comparison, the ASR-33 was a toy, designed for less lifetime >>and less complex, as well. The earlier KSR-35 was made for >>men, so to speak -- extremely well lubricated system with >>real man-parts and not toy pieces. The ASR-33 had a cute >>little cylinder with the letters on it, not that unlike the >>typewriter ball. The KSR-35 had a large hammer block, >>instead. > >After all these years, I hove always wondered, how such excellent >examples of mechanical engineering could work more than an hour >without maintenance. I still remember the KSR-35 as an absolute marvel of mechanical engineering. The person who designed that thing (and it could NOT have been designed by committee) must have locked themselves up in an asylum, after. I don't mean that in a bad way -- it was stunningly well executed. And it was also incredible to watch in operation. They worked quite well, I think. I worked on some problems just twice over the few years I used it. And it was never something fundamental about the design. It wore evenly and well. All of it balanced like a fine watch. That said, other things I worked on around that time didn't work so well. Ever see an 8k drum drive operating on a PDP-8? Mostly didn't operate, darned things. They were big and pointless. The only thing they had going for them was the .. I think .. 96 read heads or something like that. No seek time, just rotation delay time and then read time. Tried to use them, but the supposed benefits didn't seem worth it, given the down time I saw. >These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and >parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the >power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant >current supply :-). Yup. Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all these years. My eyes are probably bigger than my stomach, though. Jon
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| From | Ed Beroset <beroset@mindspring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-01 08:00 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <srudnYJ17auSYiTNnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #10673 |
Jon Kirwan wrote: > On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > wrote: > >> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and >> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the >> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant >> current supply :-). > > Yup. > > Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My > wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft > of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for > it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get > it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all > these years. Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other 70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the devices. Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 Ed
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-01 13:22 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10675 |
On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >> wrote: >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant >>> current supply :-). >> >> Yup. >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all >> these years. > >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the >devices. You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on them.....) >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd enjoy it. Jon
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| From | Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-01 17:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2b244fbbe950275e989998@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #10678 |
In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > > On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset > <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > >> wrote: > >> > >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and > >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the > >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant > >>> current supply :-). > >> > >> Yup. > >> > >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My > >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft > >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for > >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get > >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all > >> these years. > > > >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer > >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure > >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a > >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other > >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I > >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the > >devices. > > You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own > from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I > also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to > just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful > to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. > > Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing > like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs > under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape > BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and > maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on > them.....) > > >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. > >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 > > hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's > nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! > > I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- > no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. > > I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, > though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape > punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think > about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and > build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd > enjoy it. > Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) Mark Borgerson
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-01 17:43 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <faclb8lbieokhdni93in5a9q916h3ba8bv@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10679 |
On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant >> >>> current supply :-). >> >> >> >> Yup. >> >> >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all >> >> these years. >> > >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the >> >devices. >> >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. >> >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on >> them.....) >> >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 >> >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! >> >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. >> >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd >> enjoy it. >> >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy target on a table. Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel right, either. I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) Jon
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| From | Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-02 14:13 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2b25726840956059989999@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #10680 |
In article <faclb8lbieokhdni93in5a9q916h3ba8bv@4ax.com>, jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > > On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson > <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: > > >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, > >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > >> > >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset > >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: > >> > >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and > >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the > >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant > >> >>> current supply :-). > >> >> > >> >> Yup. > >> >> > >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My > >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft > >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for > >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get > >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all > >> >> these years. > >> > > >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer > >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure > >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a > >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other > >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I > >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the > >> >devices. > >> > >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own > >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I > >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to > >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful > >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. > >> > >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing > >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs > >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape > >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and > >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on > >> them.....) > >> > >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. > >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: > >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 > >> > >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's > >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! > >> > >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- > >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. > >> > >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, > >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape > >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think > >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and > >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd > >> enjoy it. > >> > >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, > >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should > >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) > > Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, > there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then > use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art > work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would > then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy > target on a table. > > Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on > me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm > not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel > right, either. > > I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) > When I worked in a Navy comm center back in the '70s, we had dozens of punches and teleprinters running 24-7. We collected chad by the pound each watch. It got re-used: if someone dozed off, they often got well sprinkled with chad. A second incident in too short an interval brought a rubdown with used carbon paper. (Yes, it is possible get sleepy in a room full of teleprinters.) Experienced operators carried a mini punch to clean up partial punches or hanging chad. The telecomm relay process at that time involved receiving and decrypting the messages from the far East in Hawaii, then moving the paper tapes to the next reader to encrypt and retransmit to DC, and to local commands. Mark Borgerson
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| From | Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-04 20:34 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50BEA494.BB7C785F@bytecraft.com> |
| In reply to | #10680 |
Jon Kirwan wrote: > On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson > <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: > > >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, > >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > >> > >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset > >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: > >> > >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and > >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the > >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant > >> >>> current supply :-). > >> >> > >> >> Yup. > >> >> > >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My > >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft > >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for > >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get > >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all > >> >> these years. > >> > > >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer > >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure > >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a > >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other > >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I > >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the > >> >devices. > >> > >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own > >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I > >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to > >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful > >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. > >> > >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing > >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs > >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape > >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and > >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on > >> them.....) > >> > >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. > >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: > >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 > >> > >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's > >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! > >> > >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- > >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. > >> > >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, > >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape > >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think > >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and > >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd > >> enjoy it. > >> > >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, > >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should > >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) > > Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, > there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then > use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art > work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would > then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy > target on a table. > > Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on > me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm > not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel > right, either. > > I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) I think it is better to use Mark's 21st century solution :) With that you should be able to engineer a Tbyte life instead a 100K byte life for a mechanical punch that would cost more to implement :) Probably 100-1000 times as fast. On another group recently someone calculated the volume and read times for a TByte on cards The other contest would be to design and implement a reliable Rube Goldberg. My entry is Roman 5 flag signaling to remote output on cuneiform tablet engraving and baking in Baghdad. w.. > >
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-04 18:25 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <vq9tb8p68ukkf8geefabuvv5di8k78hkbg@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10683 |
On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:34:12 -0500, Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote: >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson >> <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, >> >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... >> >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset >> >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and >> >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the >> >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant >> >> >>> current supply :-). >> >> >> >> >> >> Yup. >> >> >> >> >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My >> >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft >> >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for >> >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get >> >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all >> >> >> these years. >> >> > >> >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer >> >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure >> >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a >> >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other >> >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I >> >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the >> >> >devices. >> >> >> >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own >> >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I >> >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to >> >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful >> >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. >> >> >> >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing >> >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs >> >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape >> >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and >> >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on >> >> them.....) >> >> >> >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. >> >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: >> >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 >> >> >> >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's >> >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! >> >> >> >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- >> >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. >> >> >> >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, >> >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape >> >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think >> >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and >> >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd >> >> enjoy it. >> >> >> >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, >> >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should >> >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) >> >> Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, >> there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then >> use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art >> work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would >> then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy >> target on a table. >> >> Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on >> me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm >> not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel >> right, either. >> >> I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) > >I think it is better to use Mark's 21st century solution :) >With that you should be able to engineer a Tbyte life >instead a 100K byte life for a mechanical punch that would >cost more to implement :) Probably 100-1000 times as >fast. Hehe. I'm tempted. A little scary setting up a few hundred watts of 10 micron IR beam, though. (or is it 15 micron?) Anyway, don't these things COST A LOT? (Like thousands of dollars for the tubes?) Here's a 20W tube: http://www.amazing1.com/burning-lasers.htm And that by itself is $400. Here's another, more expensive one: http://www.lightobject.com/High-Quality-Reci-80W90W-CO2-Sealed-Laser-Tube10000Hrs-P118.aspx I've no idea how long these tubes last. Their warranties appear to be no more than 10 months, though. So I'm betting on replacement once per year or more often, ignorant as I am of these beasts. Do you have any specific recommendations about how to keep the costs down, the power adequate, and the precision appropriate for the task of cutting precision holes in thick, oiled paper? I'm still thinking drill rod, myself. It's not as though I'm going to be cutting out Tbytes on paper tape. I think the rolls are only from one supplier: http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html With shipping, it's $415.51 for (28) 1000' rolls. So 28000' or 3.36 megabyte for only $415.51. A terrabyte would cost me merely $123,663,690.00. That, plus the CO2 laser and operating costs. ... would put me only slightly over budget! You wouldn't happen to have some lucrative projects around, would you, where I could earn enough for this hobby? >On another group recently someone calculated the >volume and read times for a TByte on cards ;) >The other contest would be to design and implement >a reliable Rube Goldberg. My entry is Roman 5 flag >signaling to remote output on cuneiform tablet >engraving and baking in Baghdad. Hehe. I think I'll just get serious about drill rods and have somewhat more modest fun. I can't afford these hobbies of yours!! A terrabyte done on paper tape! Cripes. Jon
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| From | Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 07:55 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50BF4428.9DECC691@bytecraft.com> |
| In reply to | #10684 |
Jon Kirwan wrote: > On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:34:12 -0500, Walter Banks > <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote: > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson > >> <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: > >> > >> >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, > >> >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > >> >> > >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset > >> >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and > >> >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the > >> >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant > >> >> >>> current supply :-). > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yup. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My > >> >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft > >> >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for > >> >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get > >> >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all > >> >> >> these years. > >> >> > > >> >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer > >> >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure > >> >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a > >> >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other > >> >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I > >> >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the > >> >> >devices. > >> >> > >> >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own > >> >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I > >> >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to > >> >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful > >> >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. > >> >> > >> >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing > >> >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs > >> >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape > >> >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and > >> >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on > >> >> them.....) > >> >> > >> >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. > >> >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: > >> >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 > >> >> > >> >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's > >> >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! > >> >> > >> >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- > >> >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. > >> >> > >> >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, > >> >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape > >> >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think > >> >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and > >> >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd > >> >> enjoy it. > >> >> > >> >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, > >> >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should > >> >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) > >> > >> Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, > >> there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then > >> use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art > >> work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would > >> then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy > >> target on a table. > >> > >> Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on > >> me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm > >> not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel > >> right, either. > >> > >> I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) > > > >I think it is better to use Mark's 21st century solution :) > >With that you should be able to engineer a Tbyte life > >instead a 100K byte life for a mechanical punch that would > >cost more to implement :) Probably 100-1000 times as > >fast. > > Hehe. I'm tempted. A little scary setting up a few hundred > watts of 10 micron IR beam, though. (or is it 15 micron?) > Anyway, don't these things COST A LOT? (Like thousands of > dollars for the tubes?) > > Here's a 20W tube: > http://www.amazing1.com/burning-lasers.htm > > And that by itself is $400. > > Here's another, more expensive one: > > http://www.lightobject.com/High-Quality-Reci-80W90W-CO2-Sealed-Laser-Tube10000Hrs-P118.aspx > > I've no idea how long these tubes last. Their warranties > appear to be no more than 10 months, though. So I'm betting > on replacement once per year or more often, ignorant as I am > of these beasts. > > Do you have any specific recommendations about how to keep > the costs down, the power adequate, and the precision > appropriate for the task of cutting precision holes in thick, > oiled paper? > > I'm still thinking drill rod, myself. It's not as though I'm > going to be cutting out Tbytes on paper tape. I think the > rolls are only from one supplier: > > http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html > > With shipping, it's $415.51 for (28) 1000' rolls. So 28000' > or 3.36 megabyte for only $415.51. A terrabyte would cost me > merely $123,663,690.00. That, plus the CO2 laser and > operating costs. > > ... would put me only slightly over budget! > > You wouldn't happen to have some lucrative projects around, > would you, where I could earn enough for this hobby? > > >On another group recently someone calculated the > >volume and read times for a TByte on cards > > ;) > > >The other contest would be to design and implement > >a reliable Rube Goldberg. My entry is Roman 5 flag > >signaling to remote output on cuneiform tablet > >engraving and baking in Baghdad. > > Hehe. > > I think I'll just get serious about drill rods and have > somewhat more modest fun. I can't afford these hobbies of > yours!! A terrabyte done on paper tape! Cripes. Many years ago (1972 I think) I bought 4 PDP-11's and negotiated main memory down to $1 per byte and became an 11 second hero. Yesterday I was in a hardware store that had scattered all over the store stocking stuffer 8G thumb drives for $7.95 and also scatted all over the store LED flashlights for $8.95. Who would have believed in 1972 an unimaginable amount of storage for less than the cost of a flashlight. If you are serious about drill rod it will be a a real learning exercise in metal physics, strength of materials, lubrication. A good starting point might be the art and science of Samurai swords. Remember while you are at it that the cost each roll of paper tape would buy two 8G thumb drives. I smell coffee.. Good Luck :) w..
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 12:11 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <18avb8d0cplerjsrgmte3imkngcmg694ge@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10685 |
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 07:55:04 -0500, Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote: > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:34:12 -0500, Walter Banks >> <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote: >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> > >> >> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson >> >> <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, >> >> >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset >> >> >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and >> >> >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the >> >> >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant >> >> >> >>> current supply :-). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yup. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My >> >> >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft >> >> >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for >> >> >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get >> >> >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all >> >> >> >> these years. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer >> >> >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure >> >> >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a >> >> >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other >> >> >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I >> >> >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the >> >> >> >devices. >> >> >> >> >> >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own >> >> >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I >> >> >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to >> >> >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful >> >> >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. >> >> >> >> >> >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing >> >> >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs >> >> >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape >> >> >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and >> >> >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on >> >> >> them.....) >> >> >> >> >> >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. >> >> >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: >> >> >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 >> >> >> >> >> >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's >> >> >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- >> >> >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, >> >> >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape >> >> >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think >> >> >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and >> >> >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd >> >> >> enjoy it. >> >> >> >> >> >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, >> >> >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should >> >> >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) >> >> >> >> Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, >> >> there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then >> >> use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art >> >> work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would >> >> then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy >> >> target on a table. >> >> >> >> Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on >> >> me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm >> >> not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel >> >> right, either. >> >> >> >> I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) >> > >> >I think it is better to use Mark's 21st century solution :) >> >With that you should be able to engineer a Tbyte life >> >instead a 100K byte life for a mechanical punch that would >> >cost more to implement :) Probably 100-1000 times as >> >fast. >> >> Hehe. I'm tempted. A little scary setting up a few hundred >> watts of 10 micron IR beam, though. (or is it 15 micron?) >> Anyway, don't these things COST A LOT? (Like thousands of >> dollars for the tubes?) >> >> Here's a 20W tube: >> http://www.amazing1.com/burning-lasers.htm >> >> And that by itself is $400. >> >> Here's another, more expensive one: >> >> http://www.lightobject.com/High-Quality-Reci-80W90W-CO2-Sealed-Laser-Tube10000Hrs-P118.aspx >> >> I've no idea how long these tubes last. Their warranties >> appear to be no more than 10 months, though. So I'm betting >> on replacement once per year or more often, ignorant as I am >> of these beasts. >> >> Do you have any specific recommendations about how to keep >> the costs down, the power adequate, and the precision >> appropriate for the task of cutting precision holes in thick, >> oiled paper? >> >> I'm still thinking drill rod, myself. It's not as though I'm >> going to be cutting out Tbytes on paper tape. I think the >> rolls are only from one supplier: >> >> http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html >> >> With shipping, it's $415.51 for (28) 1000' rolls. So 28000' >> or 3.36 megabyte for only $415.51. A terrabyte would cost me >> merely $123,663,690.00. That, plus the CO2 laser and >> operating costs. >> >> ... would put me only slightly over budget! >> >> You wouldn't happen to have some lucrative projects around, >> would you, where I could earn enough for this hobby? >> >> >On another group recently someone calculated the >> >volume and read times for a TByte on cards >> >> ;) >> >> >The other contest would be to design and implement >> >a reliable Rube Goldberg. My entry is Roman 5 flag >> >signaling to remote output on cuneiform tablet >> >engraving and baking in Baghdad. >> >> Hehe. >> >> I think I'll just get serious about drill rods and have >> somewhat more modest fun. I can't afford these hobbies of >> yours!! A terrabyte done on paper tape! Cripes. > >Many years ago (1972 I think) I bought 4 PDP-11's and >negotiated main memory down to $1 per byte and became >an 11 second hero. Yesterday I was in a hardware store >that had scattered all over the store stocking stuffer >8G thumb drives for $7.95 and also scatted all over >the store LED flashlights for $8.95. Who would have >believed in 1972 an unimaginable amount of storage >for less than the cost of a flashlight. > >If you are serious about drill rod it will be a a real learning >exercise in metal physics, strength of materials, >lubrication. A good starting point might be the art >and science of Samurai swords. > >Remember while you are at it that the cost each >roll of paper tape would buy two 8G thumb drives. > >I smell coffee.. > >Good Luck :) If it were the case that I was looking at these as storage of programs, rather than a fun experience, I'd use a flash drive or a local server system. (Well, I actually DO use them.) But this is about the experiences. I don't mind making it easier on myself (for example, buying an already existing punch head with solenoids, too) and then adding electronics to the rest. But it's not about storage. Well, except perhaps things I may want to have survive 1000 years, perhaps (can't do that with DVDs, CDs, or any other magnetic media that I'm aware of -- paper is amazing stuff for really long term storage.) I'm not afraid of the learning exercises. By the time I was 20, I'd built three telescopes (1000s of hrs of work on each, grinding and then testing the figure and then more grinding, etc., and then the rest that makes it serviceable.) I also built my Altair 8800 from the newly available kit and when I later bought the 4k dynamic ram cards that were designed wrong and could not work, I got a huge lesson struggling to fix them (about a dozen patches I made to get them going.) And I didn't know enough about how dynamic ram worked, when I started, either. So unknowns are fine. Just need to push through them. Jon
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| From | Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 07:52 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2b290da1fa6c06d798999a@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #10684 |
In article <vq9tb8p68ukkf8geefabuvv5di8k78hkbg@4ax.com>, jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > > On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:34:12 -0500, Walter Banks > <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote: > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson > >> <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: > >> > >> >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, > >> >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > >> >> > >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset > >> >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and > >> >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the > >> >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant > >> >> >>> current supply :-). > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yup. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My > >> >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft > >> >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for > >> >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get > >> >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all > >> >> >> these years. > >> >> > > >> >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer > >> >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure > >> >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a > >> >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other > >> >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I > >> >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the > >> >> >devices. > >> >> > >> >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own > >> >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I > >> >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to > >> >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful > >> >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. > >> >> > >> >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing > >> >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs > >> >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape > >> >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and > >> >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on > >> >> them.....) > >> >> > >> >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. > >> >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: > >> >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 > >> >> > >> >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's > >> >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! > >> >> > >> >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- > >> >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. > >> >> > >> >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, > >> >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape > >> >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think > >> >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and > >> >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd > >> >> enjoy it. > >> >> > >> >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, > >> >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should > >> >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) > >> > >> Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, > >> there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then > >> use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art > >> work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would > >> then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy > >> target on a table. > >> > >> Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on > >> me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm > >> not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel > >> right, either. > >> > >> I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) > > > >I think it is better to use Mark's 21st century solution :) > >With that you should be able to engineer a Tbyte life > >instead a 100K byte life for a mechanical punch that would > >cost more to implement :) Probably 100-1000 times as > >fast. > > Hehe. I'm tempted. A little scary setting up a few hundred > watts of 10 micron IR beam, though. (or is it 15 micron?) > Anyway, don't these things COST A LOT? (Like thousands of > dollars for the tubes?) > > Here's a 20W tube: > http://www.amazing1.com/burning-lasers.htm > > And that by itself is $400. > > Here's another, more expensive one: > > http://www.lightobject.com/High-Quality-Reci-80W90W-CO2-Sealed-Laser-Tube10000Hrs-P118.aspx > > I've no idea how long these tubes last. Their warranties > appear to be no more than 10 months, though. So I'm betting > on replacement once per year or more often, ignorant as I am > of these beasts. > > Do you have any specific recommendations about how to keep > the costs down, the power adequate, and the precision > appropriate for the task of cutting precision holes in thick, > oiled paper? > > I'm still thinking drill rod, myself. It's not as though I'm > going to be cutting out Tbytes on paper tape. I think the > rolls are only from one supplier: > > http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html > > With shipping, it's $415.51 for (28) 1000' rolls. So 28000' > or 3.36 megabyte for only $415.51. A terrabyte would cost me > merely $123,663,690.00. That, plus the CO2 laser and > operating costs. > > ... would put me only slightly over budget! > > You wouldn't happen to have some lucrative projects around, > would you, where I could earn enough for this hobby? > > >On another group recently someone calculated the > >volume and read times for a TByte on cards > > ;) > > >The other contest would be to design and implement > >a reliable Rube Goldberg. My entry is Roman 5 flag > >signaling to remote output on cuneiform tablet > >engraving and baking in Baghdad. > > Hehe. > > I think I'll just get serious about drill rods and have > somewhat more modest fun. I can't afford these hobbies of > yours!! A terrabyte done on paper tape! Cripes. > If it's the paper tape that is the key, not the method of storing data, perhaps a paradigm shift is in order. 1. you could lower the laser power to the point where you just char the paper a bit and use an optical reader. 2. Use an ink-jet print head to print the 'holes' and an optical sensor to read the tape. IIRC, fast optical readers showed up near the end of the paper tape era. I think there were even plans for do-it-yourself readers in the magazines of the time. If I get time, I'll take a look in some of my magazines from the era. (I saved the ones that printed my articles.) Mark Borgerson
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| From | Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 11:02 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50BF7009.2EE9D3F1@bytecraft.com> |
| In reply to | #10686 |
Mark Borgerson wrote: > In article <vq9tb8p68ukkf8geefabuvv5di8k78hkbg@4ax.com>, > jonk@infinitefactors.org says... > > > > > > I think I'll just get serious about drill rods and have > > somewhat more modest fun. I can't afford these hobbies of > > yours!! A terrabyte done on paper tape! Cripes. > > > If it's the paper tape that is the key, not the method > of storing data, perhaps a paradigm shift is in order. > > 1. you could lower the laser power to the point where > you just char the paper a bit and use an optical reader. > > 2. Use an ink-jet print head to print the 'holes' > and an optical sensor to read the tape. Sounds like paperbytes all over again. At a couple K bytes per page it would still take a lot of paper for a Tbyte. :) w..
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| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 21:28 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <er6vb81nna8tefhinq9c5m39gebsqidmq2@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10686 |
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 07:52:39 -0800, Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: >IIRC, fast optical readers showed up near the end of >the paper tape era. Before optical readers, there were fast capacitive readers with paper speeds of several meters per second, thus several kilobytes/s, filling the core memory with operating system and program in tens of seconds. You could get deep nasty wounds, if you accidently touched the fast moving paper tape. Thus, it was a good idea to use gloves, when operating the paper tape reader.
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 12:21 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <s0bvb851litclaqajl55gsnrgufcnkemrf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10689 |
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 21:28:03 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 07:52:39 -0800, Mark Borgerson ><mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: > >>IIRC, fast optical readers showed up near the end of >>the paper tape era. > >Before optical readers, there were fast capacitive readers with paper >speeds of several meters per second, thus several kilobytes/s, filling >the core memory with operating system and program in tens of seconds. > >You could get deep nasty wounds, if you accidently touched the fast >moving paper tape. Thus, it was a good idea to use gloves, when >operating the paper tape reader. Now there's a thought. I never got close enough to the fast ones, except rarely. And I didn't know how they operated. But I did, at the time, understand how to make an optical one work and made my own. (It is long gone, now.) I hadn't even considered a capacitive approach. Could you elaborate a bit on this?? I'm interested in the approach -- particularly the sensor/transducer part of it and perhaps the 1st stage concerns (the rest of the amplification and electronics I think I can work out.) Jon
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| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 23:05 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <fcdvb8lh4lrpnkvmkvd842e1ih9els17fa@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10692 |
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:21:17 -0800, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>Before optical readers, there were fast capacitive readers with paper >>speeds of several meters per second, thus several kilobytes/s, filling >>the core memory with operating system and program in tens of seconds. >> >>You could get deep nasty wounds, if you accidently touched the fast >>moving paper tape. Thus, it was a good idea to use gloves, when >>operating the paper tape reader. > >Now there's a thought. I never got close enough to the fast >ones, except rarely. And I didn't know how they operated. But >I did, at the time, understand how to make an optical one >work and made my own. (It is long gone, now.) I hadn't even >considered a capacitive approach. > >Could you elaborate a bit on this?? I'm interested in the >approach -- particularly the sensor/transducer part of it and >perhaps the 1st stage concerns (the rest of the amplification >and electronics I think I can work out.) I have never seen any schematics for these beasts, but they had 8 (or more likely also a 9th for the feed hole) trimmer capacitors very close to the read head. My guess is that some kind of bridge construction was used, with the actual sensor and the trimmer capacitor at opposite side of a bridge circuit.
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