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Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter

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  Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 07:07 +0200
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 22:36 -0800
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 11:53 +0200
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-26 15:21 +0100
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 09:41 -0500
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 14:53 +0000
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 11:16 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 20:38 +0000
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 12:07 -0800
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 14:30 +1100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-28 20:28 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-28 22:17 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 11:24 +0000
                  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-29 12:35 +0100
                    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 11:51 +0000
                      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-31 18:10 +0100
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-31 11:23 -0800
                  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 06:28 -0800
                    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 14:58 +0000
                      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 08:42 -0800
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 20:33 +0000
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-29 12:38 -0800
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 14:30 -0800
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 22:37 +0000
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-29 14:41 -0800
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 23:12 +0000
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-30 11:47 +1100
                              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-29 17:26 -0800
                              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 20:19 -0800
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Will Parsons <varro@nodomain.invalid> - 2015-12-30 02:03 +0000
                              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 20:23 -0800
                              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-31 18:24 +0100
                                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-31 10:12 -0800
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-31 18:15 +0100
                  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-29 16:50 +0000
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 06:49 -0800
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 11:38 -0800
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 11:40 -0800
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-26 17:10 -0500
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 22:37 +0000
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-27 12:02 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter RH Draney <dadoctah@cox.net> - 2015-12-27 04:59 -0700
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Charles Bishop <ctbishop@earthlink.net> - 2015-12-27 07:11 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-27 16:27 +0000
                  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-27 18:01 +0100
                    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2015-12-27 18:51 +0000
                      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-27 17:16 -0330
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2015-12-27 21:03 +0000
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-27 19:46 -0330
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 15:32 -0800
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-28 20:20 +0000
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) - 2015-12-27 19:00 -0600
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-27 20:10 -0800
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-28 08:52 -0330
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) - 2015-12-28 18:09 -0600
                    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 23:37 -0800
                      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <mail@peterduncanson.net> - 2015-12-28 11:45 +0000
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-28 17:47 +0100
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 12:31 -0800
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-28 22:26 +0100
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 14:52 +1100
                      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-28 19:42 +0000
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 12:06 -0800
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-28 21:13 +0000
                        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 12:20 -0800
                          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-28 21:16 +0000
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-28 22:41 +0100
                              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-28 14:25 -0800
                              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-28 15:17 -0800
                            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 19:14 -0800
                              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-29 08:13 +0100
                  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 14:49 +1100
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-27 02:38 +0200
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter John Dawkins <artfldodgr@aol.com> - 2015-12-26 12:45 -0800
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 12:06 +0000
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 20:05 +0200
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <mail@peterduncanson.net> - 2015-12-26 21:22 +0000
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-27 12:11 +0100
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 05:29 -0800
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Doug Chadduck <dchadduck@comcast.net> - 2015-12-26 08:03 -0800
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 20:09 +0200
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-26 12:02 -0500
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 19:27 +0200
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 12:09 -0800
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 12:23 -0800
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 09:04 -0500
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-27 16:56 +0200
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-27 08:18 -0800
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-27 10:54 -0500
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 12:32 -0500
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-27 16:16 -0500
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-28 03:22 +0200
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2015-12-28 12:40 +0000
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2015-12-28 13:04 -0500
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-28 15:49 -0330
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-29 06:09 +0200
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter RH Draney <dadoctah@cox.net> - 2015-12-28 22:51 -0700
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 15:14 +1100
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-27 08:17 -0800

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#577126 — Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter

About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a
supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
meaning of the term. 

So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
here. 

https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF

And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful
information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my
question here:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm

Shirttail relative

"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.

A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.

Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
cousin, as well as your form."

I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
cousin" for short. 

Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the
appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#577129

On Friday or thereabouts, Steve Hayes asked ...
> About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
> cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
> too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
> year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
> she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
> give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
> things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a
> supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
> Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
> meaning of the term. 
>
> So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
> seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
> referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
> here. 
>
> https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF
>
> And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
> just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful
> information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my
> question here:
>
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
>
> Shirttail relative
>
> "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
> relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
> your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
> person who is close but not actually related by blood.
>
> A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
> distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
> honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
> been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
>
> Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
> abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
> American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
> dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
> examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
> cousin, as well as your form."
>
> I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
> cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
> cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
> cousin" for short. 
>
> Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
> instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
> produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the
> appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better. 

I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat, 
but evidently I didn't catch the original question.  I'd have been 
happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I 
certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its 
proper usage or range of appearance.

So blogging is better.  May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th 
of December.

/dps

-- 
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
                -njm

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#577147

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:36:10 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Shirttail relative
>>
>> "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
>> relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
>> your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
>> person who is close but not actually related by blood.
>>
>> A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
>> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
>> distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
>> honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
>> been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
>>
>> Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
>> abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
>> American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
>> dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
>> examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
>> cousin, as well as your form."

>I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat, 
>but evidently I didn't catch the original question.  I'd have been 
>happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I 
>certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its 
>proper usage or range of appearance.

The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
Orleans axis -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years. 

In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago. 

>So blogging is better.  May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th 
>of December.

Thank you, and for you too.






-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#577181

On 2015-12-26 09:53:01 +0000, Steve Hayes said:

> [  ••• ]
> 
> The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
> given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
> Orleans axis

Or maybe the El Paso-El Paso axis?

>  -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
> experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
> disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
> ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.

I think you're generalizing too much from the nastiness of one American 
poster, which was entirely in character.


-- 
athel

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#577186

On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 15:21:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2015-12-26 09:53:01 +0000, Steve Hayes said:
>
>> [  ••• ]
>> 
>> The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
>> given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
>> Orleans axis
>
>Or maybe the El Paso-El Paso axis?
>
>>  -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
>> experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
>> disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
>> ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.
>
>I think you're generalizing too much from the nastiness of one American 
>poster, which was entirely in character.

And, one who would rather post the Aggressive Question rather than
expend the same amount of time and effort by asking Google where El
Paso, Illinois is located.

-- 
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

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#577198

In message <bl9t7bl068amr1m1botpqs1tg12a1k11m3@4ax.com> 
  Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 15:21:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>>On 2015-12-26 09:53:01 +0000, Steve Hayes said:
>>
>>> [  ••• ]
>>> 
>>> The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
>>> given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
>>> Orleans axis
>>
>>Or maybe the El Paso-El Paso axis?
>>
>>>  -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
>>> experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
>>> disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
>>> ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.
>>
>>I think you're generalizing too much from the nastiness of one American 
>>poster, which was entirely in character.

> And, one who would rather post the Aggressive Question rather than
> expend the same amount of time and effort by asking Google where El
> Paso, Illinois is located.

That would imply Numpty hadn't started off with "there is no such
place", IIRC.

That was back when I was still figuring out how to kill the entire
thread under Numpty's posts (which some posters here, by stripping
references, have subverted), and I certainly recall quoted text of his
claiming El Paso Illinois did not and could not exist.


-- 
You are responsible for your Rose

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#577244

Lewis blurted out:
> In message <bl9t7bl068amr1m1botpqs1tg12a1k11m3@4ax.com> 
>   Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 15:21:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>> On 2015-12-26 09:53:01 +0000, Steve Hayes said:
>>> 
>>>> [  ••• ]
>>>> 
>>>> The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
>>>> given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
>>>> Orleans axis
>>> 
>>> Or maybe the El Paso-El Paso axis?
>>> 
>>>>  -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
>>>> experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
>>>> disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
>>>> ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.
>>> 
>>> I think you're generalizing too much from the nastiness of one American 
>>> poster, which was entirely in character.
>
>> And, one who would rather post the Aggressive Question rather than
>> expend the same amount of time and effort by asking Google where El
>> Paso, Illinois is located.
>
> That would imply Numpty hadn't started off with "there is no such
> place", IIRC.
>
> That was back when I was still figuring out how to kill the entire
> thread under Numpty's posts (which some posters here, by stripping
> references, have subverted), and I certainly recall quoted text of his
> claiming El Paso Illinois did not and could not exist.

Ah, but what do your shirttail relatives say about it?

/dps

-- 
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
  Viktor Frankl

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#577278

In message <mn.d2a47dfc492716ed.127094@snitoo> 
  Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lewis blurted out:
>> In message <bl9t7bl068amr1m1botpqs1tg12a1k11m3@4ax.com> 
>>   Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 15:21:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 2015-12-26 09:53:01 +0000, Steve Hayes said:
>>>> 
>>>>> [  ••• ]
>>>>> 
>>>>> The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
>>>>> given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
>>>>> Orleans axis
>>>> 
>>>> Or maybe the El Paso-El Paso axis?
>>>> 
>>>>>  -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
>>>>> experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
>>>>> disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
>>>>> ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.
>>>> 
>>>> I think you're generalizing too much from the nastiness of one American 
>>>> poster, which was entirely in character.
>>
>>> And, one who would rather post the Aggressive Question rather than
>>> expend the same amount of time and effort by asking Google where El
>>> Paso, Illinois is located.
>>
>> That would imply Numpty hadn't started off with "there is no such
>> place", IIRC.
>>
>> That was back when I was still figuring out how to kill the entire
>> thread under Numpty's posts (which some posters here, by stripping
>> references, have subverted), and I certainly recall quoted text of his
>> claiming El Paso Illinois did not and could not exist.

> Ah, but what do your shirttail relatives say about it?

Done of them are on USENET.


-- 
There used to be such simple directions, back in the days before they
invented parallel universes - Up and Down, Right and Left, Backward and
Forward, Past and Future... But normal directions don't work in the
multiverse, which has far too many dimensions for anyone to find their
way. So new ones have to be invented so that the way can be found. Like:
East of the Sun, West of the Moon Or: Behind the North Wind. Or: At the
Back of Beyond. Or: There and Back Again. Or: Beyond the Fields We
Know. --Lords and Ladies

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#577262

On Saturday, December 26, 2015 at 9:56:18 AM UTC-5, Lewis wrote:

> That was back when I was still figuring out how to kill the entire
> thread under Numpty's posts (which some posters here, by stripping
> references, have subverted), and I certainly recall quoted text of his
> claiming El Paso Illinois did not and could not exist.

Lewie's memory is as screwy as the rest of him.

Why "could" it "not exist"?

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#577798

On 2015-Dec-27 01:53, Lewis wrote:

>>>> [  ••• ]

In another thread I mentioned that, although my newsreader has Unicode
support, there are some Unicode characters that it can't display. This
was in the context of a discussion over whether we should abandon ASCII
IPA and switch to true IPA.

Here is an excellent example of what happens at my end. My software has
no graphic to display U+0095 "message waiting". I don't know what the
rest of you are seeing here, but I'm seeing just a square with the
digits "0095" inside it.

-- 
Peter Moylan                           http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

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#577815

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 10:30:22 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2015-Dec-27 01:53, Lewis wrote:
> 
> >>>> [  *** ]
> 
> In another thread I mentioned that, although my newsreader has Unicode
> support, there are some Unicode characters that it can't display. This
> was in the context of a discussion over whether we should abandon ASCII
> IPA and switch to true IPA.
> 
> Here is an excellent example of what happens at my end. My software has
> no graphic to display U+0095 "message waiting". I don't know what the
> rest of you are seeing here, but I'm seeing just a square with the
> digits "0095" inside it.

There is in fact no character at 0095 (dec 0149); it is a control character   
with the content "message waiting," so it's probably left over from the 
teletype or wherever "upper ASCII" was inherited from, and should not have  
appeared within a message at all. 

If you typed an 0095 character somewhere in your paragraph, there's no visible 
trace of it.

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#577835

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 7:30:22 PM UTC-8, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2015-Dec-27 01:53, Lewis wrote:
> 
> >>>> [  *** ]
> 
> In another thread I mentioned that, although my newsreader has Unicode
> support, there are some Unicode characters that it can't display. This
> was in the context of a discussion over whether we should abandon ASCII
> IPA and switch to true IPA.
> 
> Here is an excellent example of what happens at my end. My software has
> no graphic to display U+0095 "message waiting". I don't know what the
> rest of you are seeing here, but I'm seeing just a square with the
> digits "0095" inside it.
 
The Unicode standard says it should be a dotted square with the letters
MW inside. My character map doesn't show anything but the no-such-glyph
(the square with 0095 in it).

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#577858

In article <n5suje$hbi$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan  <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 2015-Dec-27 01:53, Lewis wrote:

>Here is an excellent example of what happens at my end. My software has
>no graphic to display U+0095 "message waiting". I don't know what the
>rest of you are seeing here, but I'm seeing just a square with the
>digits "0095" inside it.

Athel posted an article in UTF-8 containing three bullet characters.

Tony's reply was marked as Latin-1, which doesn't have a bullet
character, but it was in fact encoded in a Microsoft superset of
Latin-1 (probably cp1252) which has a bullet with code 0x95.

Because Tony's article was marked as Latin-1, Lewis's reply to that
(in UTF-8) had the character which is 0x95 in Latin-1, which is the
C1 control character Message Waiting.

This is a typical Microsoft bug.

-- Richard

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#577859

On 2015-12-29 11:24:05 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

> In article <n5suje$hbi$1@dont-email.me>,
> Peter Moylan  <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2015-Dec-27 01:53, Lewis wrote:
> 
>> Here is an excellent example of what happens at my end. My software has
>> no graphic to display U+0095 "message waiting". I don't know what the
>> rest of you are seeing here, but I'm seeing just a square with the
>> digits "0095" inside it.
> 
> Athel posted an article in UTF-8 containing three bullet characters.

It was intended to be [ … ], but I kept the alt-shift keys needed for [ 
] pressed for the other characters and got [ ••• ]. I noticed, but 
didn't correct it as I didn't think it would matter. Apparently it did.
> 
> Tony's reply was marked as Latin-1, which doesn't have a bullet
> character, but it was in fact encoded in a Microsoft superset of
> Latin-1 (probably cp1252) which has a bullet with code 0x95.
> 
> Because Tony's article was marked as Latin-1, Lewis's reply to that
> (in UTF-8) had the character which is 0x95 in Latin-1, which is the
> C1 control character Message Waiting.
> 
> This is a typical Microsoft bug.
> 
> -- Richard


-- 
athel

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#577861

In article <def9goFsmmoU1@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden  <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>It was intended to be [ <ellipsis character> ], but I kept the
>alt-shift keys needed for [ ] pressed for the other characters and
>got [ <3 bullet points> ]. I noticed, but didn't correct it as I
>didn't think it would matter. Apparently it did.

It would have had the same problem, as the ellipsis is also not a
Latin-1 character but is in cp1252.  The bug is in Tony's software,
not yours.

-- Richard

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#578177

On 2015-12-29 11:51:24 +0000, Richard Tobin said:

> In article <def9goFsmmoU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden  <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> 
>> It was intended to be [ <ellipsis character> ], but I kept the
>> alt-shift keys needed for [ ] pressed for the other characters and
>> got [ <3 bullet points> ]. I noticed, but didn't correct it as I
>> didn't think it would matter. Apparently it did.
> 
> It would have had the same problem, as the ellipsis is also not a
> Latin-1 character but is in cp1252.

I don't usually use the ellipsis character (…) in Usenet posts or email 
messages, as I know it can be misunderstood by some software, so I type 
three full stops (…) instead. I do use the proper character in more 
formal writing, however.

Stimulated by your comment I searched and found the package described 
at 
http://ftp.oleane.net/pub/CTAN/macros/latex/contrib/frankenstein/lips.pdf, 
which I didn't previously know of. I agree with the author's criticisms 
of the \dots command (in text), but as I didn't know about the lips 
package before I've been using do-it-yourself commands:

\DeclareTextCommandDefault{\fourdots}{%
    .\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{0.02cm}.
    }

\DeclareTextCommandDefault{\threedots}{%
    .\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{-0.01cm}
    }

These have the advantage of putting the dots as close to one another as 
I want them (closer than the author of the lips package puts them), but 
could be seen as a bit clunky.

>  The bug is in Tony's software,
> not yours.
> 
> -- Richard


-- 
athel

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#578203

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 12:10:29 PM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2015-12-29 11:51:24 +0000, Richard Tobin said:
> > In article <def9goFsmmoU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden  <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> >> It was intended to be [ <ellipsis character> ], but I kept the
> >> alt-shift keys needed for [ ] pressed for the other characters and
> >> got [ <3 bullet points> ]. I noticed, but didn't correct it as I
> >> didn't think it would matter. Apparently it did.
> > It would have had the same problem, as the ellipsis is also not a
> > Latin-1 character but is in cp1252.
> 
> I don't usually use the ellipsis character (...) in Usenet posts or email 
> messages, as I know it can be misunderstood by some software, so I type 
> three full stops (...) instead. I do use the proper character in more 
> formal writing, however.
> 
> Stimulated by your comment I searched and found the package described 
> at 
> http://ftp.oleane.net/pub/CTAN/macros/latex/contrib/frankenstein/lips.pdf, 
> which I didn't previously know of. I agree with the author's criticisms 
> of the \dots command (in text), but as I didn't know about the lips 
> package before I've been using do-it-yourself commands:
> 
> \DeclareTextCommandDefault{\fourdots}{%
>     .\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{0.02cm}.
>     }
> 
> \DeclareTextCommandDefault{\threedots}{%
>     .\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{0.02cm}.\hspace*{-0.01cm}
>     }
> 
> These have the advantage of putting the dots as close to one another as 
> I want them (closer than the author of the lips package puts them), but 
> could be seen as a bit clunky.
> 
> >  The bug is in Tony's software, not yours.

Unless you tell it not to in the AutoCorrect tool, MSWord automatically 
turns a sequence of three periods into the ellipsis character.

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#577888

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:25:05 AM UTC-5, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <n5suje$hbi$1@dont-email.me>,
> Peter Moylan  <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >On 2015-Dec-27 01:53, Lewis wrote:
> 
> >Here is an excellent example of what happens at my end. My software has
> >no graphic to display U+0095 "message waiting". I don't know what the
> >rest of you are seeing here, but I'm seeing just a square with the
> >digits "0095" inside it.
> 
> Athel posted an article in UTF-8 containing three bullet characters.
> 
> Tony's reply was marked as Latin-1, which doesn't have a bullet
> character, but it was in fact encoded in a Microsoft superset of
> Latin-1 (probably cp1252) which has a bullet with code 0x95.

? There's been no Tony posting in this thread since Saturday, well before 
this question came up.

> Because Tony's article was marked as Latin-1, Lewis's reply to that
> (in UTF-8) had the character which is 0x95 in Latin-1, which is the
> C1 control character Message Waiting.
> 
> This is a typical Microsoft bug.

In what way? "Microsoft" doesn't impose "Latin-1" on my UTF-8.

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#577898

In article <e61a71a7-3dc2-44ef-b061-f6ff3d1b60ec@googlegroups.com>,
Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>> Athel posted an article in UTF-8 containing three bullet characters.
>> 
>> Tony's reply was marked as Latin-1, which doesn't have a bullet
>> character, but it was in fact encoded in a Microsoft superset of
>> Latin-1 (probably cp1252) which has a bullet with code 0x95.

>? There's been no Tony posting in this thread since Saturday, well before 
>this question came up.

Yes, it was Tony's reply on Saturday that introduced the error.

>> This is a typical Microsoft bug.

>In what way? "Microsoft" doesn't impose "Latin-1" on my UTF-8.

It's typical of Microsoft systems to produce documents in their
proprietary encodings that are marked as ISO Latin.  A few weeks ago I
even found cp1252 quotation marks in a MARC-8 record.

And it's typical of Microsoft systems to *display* the incorrectly
labelled text as if it were labelled cp1252, so that it appears
correct to the author, and the error is only apparent to other
readers.

-- Richard

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#577914

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 10:00:04 AM UTC-5, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <e61a71a7-3dc2-44ef-b061-f6ff3d1b60ec@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> >> Athel posted an article in UTF-8 containing three bullet characters.
> >> 
> >> Tony's reply was marked as Latin-1, which doesn't have a bullet
> >> character, but it was in fact encoded in a Microsoft superset of
> >> Latin-1 (probably cp1252) which has a bullet with code 0x95.
> 
> >? There's been no Tony posting in this thread since Saturday, well before 
> >this question came up.
> 
> Yes, it was Tony's reply on Saturday that introduced the error.
> 
> >> This is a typical Microsoft bug.
> 
> >In what way? "Microsoft" doesn't impose "Latin-1" on my UTF-8.
> 
> It's typical of Microsoft systems to produce documents in their
> proprietary encodings that are marked as ISO Latin.  A few weeks ago I
> even found cp1252 quotation marks in a MARC-8 record.
> 
> And it's typical of Microsoft systems to *display* the incorrectly
> labelled text as if it were labelled cp1252, so that it appears
> correct to the author, and the error is only apparent to other
> readers.

I replied to Tony and the three bullet characters appear properly in my reply. 
Someone else who quoted Tony's posting must have messed it up.

In fact they appear intact all the way through and including Peter M's posting 
saying that he gets a control character instead, and David's and my quoting of 
it; but then you broke the chain by deleting the line when you quoted me. So it 
would seem to be Peter M's admittedly archaic and nonconformist computer that 
has the problem.

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