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XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement

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  XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@twenex.org> - 2021-09-24 04:55 +0000
    Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2021-09-24 11:01 +0000
      Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-09-25 01:18 -0700
        Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2021-09-25 13:09 +0000
    Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-24 16:30 -0700
      Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-24 21:15 -0400
        Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-27 00:11 -0700
          Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-27 17:45 -0400
            Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-27 18:22 -0700
              Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-28 20:22 -0400
                Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-28 18:15 -0700
      Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2021-09-25 06:53 +0000
        Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-25 01:01 -0700
    Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-09-25 01:17 -0700
      Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-25 20:54 -0400
        Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-26 23:41 -0700
        Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-26 23:44 -0700
        Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-09-29 00:48 -0700
          Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-29 05:02 -0700
            Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement "lordha...@gmail.com" <lordhailsham@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 06:51 -0700
              Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-09-29 12:05 -0700
                Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement "lordha...@gmail.com" <lordhailsham@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 16:14 -0700
                  Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2021-09-29 18:15 -0700
                  Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2021-09-30 07:07 +0000
                    Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2021-09-30 07:30 +0000
              Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2021-09-29 21:11 +0000
    Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2021-09-26 10:00 -0500
    Re: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2021-10-06 15:10 -0500

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#8328 — XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement

Dear Fellow PDP-10 Enthusiast,

Over the past years, it's been challenging for all of us to find a place to
run our PDP-10 software.  At the same time, there hasn't been a library of
PDP-10 software that is well taken care of, and made easily available to the
interested public.  It also should be made clear that several organizations,
museums and individuals have significantly contributed to the recovery and
restoration of much of the "thought to be lost forever" PDP-10 code in the
past 20 years.

Kudos to you! (You know who you are).

I would like to offer another solution.  I have invested in a TOAD-2 machine
running the PDP-10 architecture, and would like to make its capabilities
available.  The TOAD is manufactured by XKL LLC, and is a completely new
hardware implementation of Digital's 36-bit PDP-10 architecture, not an
emulator running on another platform.  This machine I've purchased will be a
repository for PDP10 public domain software, including the collection of the
DEC-10 and DEC-20 DECUS tapes.

By making access accounts available to an anyone, we hope to learn of any
issue areas with our new program.  Through an account you can set up with us,
you can access this library, and run programs you may not have seen for years.
You may also submit your own programs for storage, and for use by fellow
advocates.  These programs may be submitted via FTP, email or 9-track tapes. 
Once you have an account established you could access KANKAN via SSH and a
special FTP pass through service. Anyone may download the libraries of
software through anonymous FTP from TWENEX.ORG.

The machine, named KANKAN, is configured as follows:
	TOAD-2, 36-bit computing system
	TOPS-20 system software
	32 MW memory board
 	Too many terabytes of disk

The machine, named RANRAN, is configured as follows:
	TOAD-2, 36-bit computing system
	TOPS-20 system software
	32 MW memory board
 	Too many terabytes of disk

I encourage any of you who are interested to contact us to set up an
account.  To set up an account, simply click on MKACCT on the
https://twenex.org site.  Further information regarding twenex.org 
can be read at the 'history' link.

Bill Gates and Paul Allen used PDP10s to develop much of Microsoft's
early software.  I hope many of you take advantage of this opportunity
to keep alive some of your old memories and to make new ones.


Stephen M. Jones
---
https://twenex.org

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#8329

Stephen M. Jones wrote:
> This machine I've purchased will be a repository for PDP10 public
> domain software, including the collection of the DEC-10 and DEC-20
> DECUS tapes.

Thank you, this is great!  I'm very much focused on ITS, and have few
spare cycles for the DEC operating systems.  But I recognize they have
formidable capabilities.  I hope they will see more active development
and public advocacy.  I think they deserve more attention and
exploration by a younger generation.

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#8335

Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> writes:
> Thank you, this is great!  I'm very much focused on ITS, and have few
> spare cycles for the DEC operating systems.

Can I interest you in a Raspberry Pi that I have sitting idle?

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#8336

Paul Rubin wrote:
>> I'm very much focused on ITS, and have few spare cycles for the DEC
>> operating systems.
> Can I interest you in a Raspberry Pi that I have sitting idle?

Er, the cycle shortage is in the amount of free time I have.
I have plenty of computer cycles available.

As far as Raspberry Pis go:

- Pi Zero: Datapoint 3300.
- Pi 3: PiDP-11.
- Pi 3: Knight TV.
- Pi 4: VT100.
- Pi 4: PDP-10 running ITS.

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#8330

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:55:58 PM UTC-7, Stephen M. Jones wrote:
> Dear Fellow PDP-10 Enthusiast, 

(snip)

> The machine, named KANKAN, is configured as follows: 
> TOAD-2, 36-bit computing system 
> TOPS-20 system software 
> 32 MW memory board 
> Too many terabytes of disk 
> 
> The machine, named RANRAN, is configured as follows: 
> TOAD-2, 36-bit computing system 
> TOPS-20 system software 
> 32 MW memory board 
> Too many terabytes of disk 

Bbbut no TOPS-10?

I think I forgot how to logon to TOPS-20.

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#8331

gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> writes:

> On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 9:55:58 PM UTC-7, Stephen M. Jones wrote:
>> Dear Fellow PDP-10 Enthusiast, 

> (snip)

>> The machine, named KANKAN, is configured as follows: 
>> TOAD-2, 36-bit computing system 
>> TOPS-20 system software 
>> 32 MW memory board 
>> Too many terabytes of disk 

>> The machine, named RANRAN, is configured as follows: 
>> TOAD-2, 36-bit computing system 
>> TOPS-20 system software 
>> 32 MW memory board 
>> Too many terabytes of disk 

> Bbbut no TOPS-10?

> I think I forgot how to logon to TOPS-20.

Glen,

Connect to the system and type a question mark (ASCII 77(8)) to the "@" prompt
for a reminder of all the commands available to a not-logged-in job, including
LOGIN. :-)

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#8341

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 6:15:26 PM UTC-7, Rich Alderson wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > I think I forgot how to logon to TOPS-20.
> Glen, 
> 
> Connect to the system and type a question mark (ASCII 77(8)) to the "@" prompt 
> for a reminder of all the commands available to a not-logged-in job, including 
> LOGIN. :-) 

Seems like it is also that I forgot about TOPS-20 error messages.

If you type login, it says:

?Does not match directory or user name, or structure not mounted

which is not at all an obvious answer.

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#8342

gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> writes:

> On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 6:15:26 PM UTC-7, Rich Alderson wrote:
> 
> (snip, I wrote)
> 
> > > I think I forgot how to logon to TOPS-20.
> > Glen, 
> > 
> > Connect to the system and type a question mark (ASCII 77(8)) to the "@" prompt 
> > for a reminder of all the commands available to a not-logged-in job, including 
> > LOGIN. :-) 
> 
> Seems like it is also that I forgot about TOPS-20 error messages.
> 
> If you type login, it says:
> 
> ?Does not match directory or user name, or structure not mounted
> 
> which is not at all an obvious answer.

type "login ?" and see what you get...

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#8343

On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 2:46:04 PM UTC-7, Rich Alderson wrote:

(snip, I wrote)
> > Seems like it is also that I forgot about TOPS-20 error messages. 

> > If you type login, it says: 

> > ?Does not match directory or user name, or structure not mounted 
 
> > which is not at all an obvious answer.

> type "login ?" and see what you get...

Yes, I figured it out, logged in, changed my password, and all that.

But that is one of the strangest error messages.

(That is, next to those that say "syntax error" for everything.)

thanks,

-- glen

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#8344

gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> writes:

> On Monday, September 27, 2021 at 2:46:04 PM UTC-7, Rich Alderson wrote:

> (snip, I wrote)
>>> Seems like it is also that I forgot about TOPS-20 error messages. 

>>> If you type login, it says: 

>>> ?Does not match directory or user name, or structure not mounted 

>>> which is not at all an obvious answer.

>> type "login ?" and see what you get...

> Yes, I figured it out, logged in, changed my password, and all that.

> But that is one of the strangest error messages.

> (That is, next to those that say "syntax error" for everything.)

The LOGIN command (and it's a command built into the EXEC, not a separate
program, for the non-20 types reading along) is simply returning the error
message from the monitor.  Since the LOGIN% JSYS expects either a username or a
directory name as an argument, the appropriate response to an empty command
argument is what you get.

Nothing strange about it! :->

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#8345

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:22:17 PM UTC-7, Rich Alderson wrote:
> gah4 <ga...@u.washington.edu> writes: 

(snip, I wrote)

> >>> ?Does not match directory or user name, or structure not mounted 

(snip)

> The LOGIN command (and it's a command built into the EXEC, not a separate 
> program, for the non-20 types reading along) is simply returning the error 
> message from the monitor. Since the LOGIN% JSYS expects either a username or a 
> directory name as an argument, the appropriate response to an empty command 
> argument is what you get. 

> Nothing strange about it! :->

Are you allowed to have a zero length user name?

Can you login to a directory or mounted structure?

"Missing user name" makes more sense to me.

Otherwise, I was thinking about systems that prompt for username
when you don't supply one. 

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#8332

gah4 wrote:
>> The machine, named RANRAN, is configured as follows: 
>> TOAD-2, 36-bit computing system 
>> TOPS-20 system software 
>> 32 MW memory board 
>> Too many terabytes of disk 
>
> Bbbut no TOPS-10?

It's twenex.org, not bottoms10.org.  Flamewar intended!

Insults aside, from what little I know it would be a major job to port
other operating systems to the TOAD-2.

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#8333

On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 11:53:02 PM UTC-7, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

(snip, I wrote)
> > Bbbut no TOPS-10?
> It's twenex.org, not bottoms10.org. Flamewar intended! 

> Insults aside, from what little I know it would be a major job to port 
> other operating systems to the TOAD-2.

Ha ha!  Funnies thing I heard all day!  
(Actually, maybe the only funny thing all day.)

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#8334

"Stephen M. Jones" <smj@twenex.org> writes:
> I have invested in a TOAD-2 machine running the PDP-10 architecture,
> and would like to make its capabilities available.  The TOAD is
> manufactured by XKL LLC, and is a completely new hardware
> implementation of Digital's 36-bit PDP-10 architecture, not an
> emulator running on another platform.  This machine I've purchased
> will be a repository for PDP10 public domain software...

This is cool, thanks for doing it, and I didn't realize that the Toad-2
existed.  Finding much info about it is non-trivial.  Is it really built
around an ASIC?  Or maybe an FPGA, that would be easier?  When was it
built?  Was there really much benefit by then of building a hardware
implementation instead of simply running an emulator?  I've been
slightly interested in fooling with emulated PDP-10's for various
purposes, but have never understood the attraction of hardware
reimplementations once emulators became a lot faster than historical
10's.

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#8337

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:

> "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@twenex.org> writes:

>> I have invested in a TOAD-2 machine running the PDP-10 architecture, and
>> would like to make its capabilities available.  The TOAD is manufactured by
>> XKL LLC, and is a completely new hardware implementation of Digital's 36-bit
>> PDP-10 architecture, not an emulator running on another platform.  This
>> machine I've purchased will be a repository for PDP10 public domain
>> software...

> This is cool, thanks for doing it, and I didn't realize that the Toad-2
> existed.  Finding much info about it is non-trivial.  Is it really built
> around an ASIC?  Or maybe an FPGA, that would be easier?  When was it built?
> Was there really much benefit by then of building a hardware implementation
> instead of simply running an emulator?  I've been slightly interested in
> fooling with emulated PDP-10's for various purposes, but have never
> understood the attraction of hardware reimplementations once emulators became
> a lot faster than historical 10's.

Hmm.  Start with searches in these newsgroups from the 1990s, when I was (among
other things) running sales support and customer support for XKL.  Look for
posts from "alderson@xkl.com".

Note, please, that I have not been an employee of XKL since 2003, and do not
now speak for them in any way, official or un-.

XKL was started by Len Bosack, co-founder of cisco Systems (original spelling),
to build what was originally intended to be cisco's premier product, a desktop
PDP-10 clone which implemented things like the full 30 bit address space in
hardware.  The result was the introduction, in 1995, of the XKL Toad-1 System,
an extended clone the size of a two drawer file cabinet.

The Toad-1 featured a processor roughly 2x faster than the KL-10, a 4-port
10baseT Ethernet interface, a 4-port FASTWIDE SCSI-2 interface, and a 32MW
memory card, in a 7 slot backplane.  One of the tests we performed was to put 4
memory cards in, to see if our mods to TOPS-20 were correct; the system sat
there happily using 128MW and never even hiccoughed.  We sold a few systems, to
MCI, Digital, and Paul Allen (as an individual, not to one of his companies);
others were gifts to friends of the company.

The XKL-1 processor board was built around an FPGA from Xilinx.

The TOAD-2 processor is a reimplementation of the Toad-1 in a single FPGA.  The
primary file systems are on 2 microSD cards; the Ethernet is built in, and they
provide a NAS application which runs on Linux to allow for much more than 2GB
of user storage.  The early version, which we had at Living Computers: Museum +
Labs, was labeled "TOAD-2"; the current version is embedded in their DarkStar
optical router boxes.  The TOAD-2 is used as the configuration driver in their
40G/100G and faster optical networking products (where routing is done in the
fiber header, not a general purpose processor); if no networking interfaces are
detected, the system will assume that it should boot TOPS-20 instead.

They are still using (bigger, faster) FPGAs in their designs.  Len has always
held that smart engineers can get the speeds they want from better designs,
instead of wasting time on ASICs which will have to be competely replaced
instead of being modified if a bug, or an enhancement, needs to be updated.

At the time we build the Toad-1 (on which I did some of the operating system
work as well as my other duties), PC clocks had not reached the 1GHz range yet,
and it was a perfectly reasonable product line, given that PDP-10 users had at
least 20 years invested in local software (like most mainframe shops, primary
software loads were local).  We even ported Tops-10 to the Toad-1 for a
potential customer; no one apparently has asked for Tops-10 for the TOAD-2.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#8339

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 5:54:54 PM UTC-7, Rich Alderson wrote:
 
(snip)

> XKL was started by Len Bosack, co-founder of cisco Systems (original spelling), 
> to build what was originally intended to be cisco's premier product, a desktop 
> PDP-10 clone which implemented things like the full 30 bit address space in 
> hardware. The result was the introduction, in 1995, of the XKL Toad-1 System, 
> an extended clone the size of a two drawer file cabinet. 

I remember talking to someone at FCCM 96 about a Xilinx implementation
of the PDP-10.  I thought he didn't have one running at the time, but maybe more
than one person was interested.  

https://www.fccm.org/

It seems that the web site only goes back to 1997, though.

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#8340

On Saturday, September 25, 2021 at 5:54:54 PM UTC-7, Rich Alderson wrote:

(snip)

> XKL was started by Len Bosack, co-founder of cisco Systems (original spelling),
> to build what was originally intended to be cisco's premier product, a desktop
> PDP-10 clone which implemented things like the full 30 bit address space in
> hardware. The result was the introduction, in 1995, of the XKL Toad-1 System,
> an extended clone the size of a two drawer file cabinet.

I remember talking to someone at FCCM 95 about a Xilinx implementation
of the PDP-10.  I am not sure now if it was the same, or someone else with
the same idea.

https://www.fccm.org/

It seems that the web site only goes back to 1997, though. 

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#8346

Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
> The Toad-1 featured a processor roughly 2x faster than the KL-10...
> The TOAD-2 processor is a reimplementation of the Toad-1 in a single
> FPGA.  The primary file systems are on 2 microSD cards... They are
> still using (bigger, faster) FPGAs in their designs.

Thanks for this info!  Can you say the speed of the Toad-2 relative to
the Toad-1?  Do you mean to say versions of the Toad-2 are still being
built?  How fast are the newest ones?  Are the microSD cards anywhere
near reliable enough to use for a timesharing file system?

> Len has always held that smart engineers can get the speeds they want
> from better designs, instead of wasting time on ASICs

Well, true up to a point ;).  Anyway, for a PDP-10 system, an FPGA
implementation can probably approach the limit of where a faster cpu is
really useful.  I.e. software written on actual DECsystem 10's never
expected such speed and wasn't designed to really make use of it.

> At the time we build the Toad-1 ... PC clocks had not reached the 1GHz
> range yet,

I don't know how a 1ghz PC would have compared to a KL-10 if the
emulation software was carefully optimized, or what speeds the DEC Alpha
(another possible emulation host) might have gone at.  The Alpha was
native 64 bit while amd64 didn't come out til a few years later.  I'm
sure your group knew about the Alpha though, and made a considered
decision.

These days, large FPGA's are still super expensive, so software
emulations on conventional cpus must have significant cost advantages,
even if you have to use more of them.

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#8347

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 12:48:40 AM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote:

(snip)

> These days, large FPGA's are still super expensive, so software 
> emulations on conventional cpus must have significant cost advantages, 
> even if you have to use more of them.

The high-end FPGAs are super expensive, but the not-so-high-end
keep getting bigger, and are not so expensive.

If you are really trying to save money, a few of the smaller ones cost
a lot less than one of the largest ones.  

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#8348

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:02:35 AM UTC-4, gah4 wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 12:48:40 AM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: 
> 
> (snip)
> > These days, large FPGA's are still super expensive, so software 
> > emulations on conventional cpus must have significant cost advantages, 
> > even if you have to use more of them.
> The high-end FPGAs are super expensive, but the not-so-high-end 
> keep getting bigger, and are not so expensive. 
> 
> If you are really trying to save money, a few of the smaller ones cost 
> a lot less than one of the largest ones.
Folks - apologies for the dumb question....- is building or otherwise acquiring a TOAD-2 within the reaches of a regular enthusiast with basic skills?

(asking for a friend :-))

Andy

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