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TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022

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  TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-02 21:32 +0000
    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 14:30 +0000
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 16:38 +0000
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 17:13 +0000
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:33 -0500
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 21:55 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-04 13:23 -0800
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:29 +0100
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-06 19:40 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:49 -0600
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-12-26 12:49 -0800
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-06 11:17 -0800
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:53 +0100
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-07 22:02 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:55 -0600
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-23 12:27 -0700
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-07 03:11 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-03-08 22:46 -0800
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:10 +0100
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 00:46 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-04 18:49 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2022-03-04 14:55 -0600
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-04 22:14 +0000
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 22:17 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2022-03-06 04:35 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-06 05:40 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:46 -0500
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:21 +0100
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:42 +0100
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "P.Lj" <peter.ljungberg.sui@gmail.com> - 2022-03-18 13:36 -0700
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-07 07:11 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-07 00:33 -0800
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:03 -0500
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 15:07 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:51 +0100
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:07 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-07 11:47 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:19 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-08 10:08 +0100
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-08 10:54 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 18:52 +0000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-08 17:34 -0500
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2022-03-09 00:46 -0500
                                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-09 06:48 +0000
                                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 12:07 -0600
                                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:11 +0100
                                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-09 20:10 +0100
                                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-13 22:20 +0000
                                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-16 19:11 +0100
                                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-09 14:47 -0500
                                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Eric Swenson <eric@swenson.org> - 2022-03-11 10:25 -0800
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Sid Maxwell <srmaxwell3@gmail.com> - 2022-03-11 09:14 -0800
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "P.Lj" <peter.ljungberg.sui@gmail.com> - 2022-03-18 13:41 -0700
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-08 19:47 +0000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-09 01:03 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:34 +0100
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 18:59 +0000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 22:00 +0100
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 21:20 +0000
                                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:13 +0100
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 12:13 -0600
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2022-03-11 13:56 +0000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-12 01:12 +0100
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Phil Budne <phil.budne@gmail.com> - 2022-03-12 11:40 -0800
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Phil Budne <phil.budne@gmail.com> - 2022-03-12 11:43 -0800
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2022-03-12 22:01 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:18 +0100
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:37 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 14:53 -0500
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 20:43 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-07 19:52 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:18 -0500
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:33 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:58 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 00:06 +0100
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 15:22 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 11:17 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-08 21:09 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 21:33 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:24 +0100
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:24 -0500
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 21:06 +0000
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:47 -0500
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 10:48 -0600
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:03 +0000
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 19:52 -0600
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2022-03-08 04:13 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:32 +0100
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-03-08 23:02 -0800

Page 4 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5  Next page →

#8514

On 2022-03-08 10:08, Andreas Eder wrote:
> On Mo 07 Mär 2022 at 11:47, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> I’m always amazed when I try to use some piece of software I used to use
>> years ago how primitive it seems now. Back then non-ISPF TSO or DOS EDLIN
>> seemed like usable, if not much fun, pieces of software. Playing with old
>> systems like TSS or Multics it seems like my biggest problem is lack of a
>> decent editor.
> 
> Well, on Multics you have Emacs!

Really? EMACS start off on PDP-10s, written in TECO. Not saying that 
there couldn't have been a version for Multics, but that was mostly a 
crowd that eventually gave us things like ed and vi.

> That should be enough for everyone :-)

Of course. And others will disagree. :-)

   Johnny

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#8517

Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Not saying that there couldn't have been a[n Emacs] version for
> Multics

You seem vague.  I'm here to tell you Multics Emacs was started on March
3rd 1978 around 10pm.

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#8519

On 2022-03-08 19:59, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> Not saying that there couldn't have been a[n Emacs] version for
>> Multics
> 
> You seem vague.  I'm here to tell you Multics Emacs was started on March
> 3rd 1978 around 10pm.

Of course I am vague. I've never used Multics... But I've used the 
original Emacs more than enough...

And by 1978 I thought Multics was pretty dead. (Ok, Honeywell did 
continue until 1985 on the thing...)

   Johnny

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#8521

Johnny Billquist wrote:
> And by 1978 I thought Multics was pretty dead.

Why would you think that?  I hope you're not influenced by Unix
mythology that would have Multics "failing" in 1969.

Data for new Mulitics installations per year from
https://multicians.org/sites.html

1967: 3
1970: 1
1971: 1
1972: 2
1973: 1
1974: 3
1975: 1
1976: 2
1977: 4
1978: 3
1979: 7
1980: 11
1981: 8
1982: 10
1983: 13
1984: 4
1985: 3
1986: 1
1987: 2

Maybe not 100% accurate but should give a rough idea.

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#8531

On 2022-03-08 22:20, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> And by 1978 I thought Multics was pretty dead.
> 
> Why would you think that?  I hope you're not influenced by Unix
> mythology that would have Multics "failing" in 1969.
> 
> Data for new Mulitics installations per year from
> https://multicians.org/sites.html
> 
> 1967: 3
> 1970: 1
> 1971: 1
> 1972: 2
> 1973: 1
> 1974: 3
> 1975: 1
> 1976: 2
> 1977: 4
> 1978: 3
> 1979: 7
> 1980: 11
> 1981: 8
> 1982: 10
> 1983: 13
> 1984: 4
> 1985: 3
> 1986: 1
> 1987: 2
> 
> Maybe not 100% accurate but should give a rough idea.

You know, with those numbers, to me, that means dead. :-)

   Johnny

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#8667

On 3/8/2022 12:59 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> Not saying that there couldn't have been a[n Emacs] version for
>> Multics
> 
> You seem vague.  I'm here to tell you Multics Emacs was started on March
> 3rd 1978 around 10pm.

Was this after the bartender refused to serve you another drink... 
because you already had too much???   ;-)  Any screen editor would be 
preferable to what you have to do to edit a text field in Windows...

-- 

Charles Richmond


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

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#8534

In article <t07t1s$lie$2@news.misty.com>,
Johnny Billquist  <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>On 2022-03-08 10:08, Andreas Eder wrote:
>> On Mo 07 Mär 2022 at 11:47, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> I’m always amazed when I try to use some piece of software I used to use
>>> years ago how primitive it seems now. Back then non-ISPF TSO or DOS EDLIN
>>> seemed like usable, if not much fun, pieces of software. Playing with old
>>> systems like TSS or Multics it seems like my biggest problem is lack of a
>>> decent editor.
>> 
>> Well, on Multics you have Emacs!
>
>Really? EMACS start off on PDP-10s, written in TECO. Not saying that 
>there couldn't have been a version for Multics, but that was mostly a 
>crowd that eventually gave us things like ed and vi.

Yes really.  Not only was there emacs on Multics, it is written
in Lisp.

https://multicians.org/mepap.html

See also AIM-519A, which mentions Multics emacs and Lisp:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-519A.pdf

Ed is descended from qedx, which is another Multics editor.  Vi
of course came from Berkeley.

	- Dan C.

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#8538

On 2022-03-11 14:56, Dan Cross wrote:
> Ed is descended from qedx, which is another Multics editor.  Vi
> of course came from Berkeley.

vi is just visual ed. :-)
(And I can't understand the recent craze about it...)

   Johnny

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#8539

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 8:56:11 AM UTC-5, Dan Cross wrote:
> Ed is descended from qedx, which is another Multics editor. Vi 
> of course came from Berkeley. 

QED started on the Berkeley Timesharing System (SDS 940) c.1967.
Ken Thompson brought it east, implementing it first on CTSS, and then Multics and GECOS, and as ed on PDP-7 UNIX:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QED_(text_editor)
https://dbpedia.org/page/QED_(text_editor)

Phil
(EMACS user for 41y, starting as a tourist on ITS, FINE on TOPS-10, then TOPS-20 EMACS, then CCA EMACS on Unix, followed by GNU.  My oldest .emacs file is from 1988).

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#8540

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:40:08 PM UTC-5, Phil Budne wrote:
> Ken Thompson brought it east, implementing it first on CTSS, and then Multics and GECOS, and as ed on PDP-7 UNIX

P.S. I regard vi as useful only as a read-mostly version of "more", or for emergency use in cramped places like Docker containers or embedded systems (tho I've been known to compile micro EMACS or ELLE).

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#8541

In article <aa1a331f-9ba7-43fc-81ff-4efd9db4bc02n@googlegroups.com>,
Phil Budne  <phil.budne@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 8:56:11 AM UTC-5, Dan Cross wrote:
>> Ed is descended from qedx, which is another Multics editor. Vi 
>> of course came from Berkeley. 
>
>QED started on the Berkeley Timesharing System (SDS 940) c.1967.
>Ken Thompson brought it east, implementing it first on CTSS, and then Multics and GECOS, and as ed on PDP-7 UNIX:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QED_(text_editor)
>https://dbpedia.org/page/QED_(text_editor)

Thank you, these are great points and I stand corrected.  Dennis
Ritchie's brief history of QED is also illuminating:
https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/qed.html

	- Dan C.

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#8492

On 2022-03-07 18:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>> On 2022-03-07 16:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>>
> 
>>
>> It's very similar to how you'll feel today if someone throws /bin/sh at
>> you, and you are used to tcsh or bash. No filename completion, no line
>> editing, no interactive information, no nothing. It's like going back to
>> the dark ages.
> 
> For what it's worth, I've been using ksh since 1989 and while it supports
> filename completion, I've never used it (since I use vi-style command
> line editing, it takes more than just the tab key to invoke completion).

Never used ksh, but it still certainly sounds like miles from sh.

I don't expect people will really get involved in TOPS-20 EXEC now, but 
if you were to use it for a while, I think you'd start see my point. :-)

If you ever use Cisco gear, you might have gotten some taste of it as 
well...

   Johnny

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#8495

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>On 2022-03-07 18:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>> On 2022-03-07 16:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>>>
>> 
>>>
>>> It's very similar to how you'll feel today if someone throws /bin/sh at
>>> you, and you are used to tcsh or bash. No filename completion, no line
>>> editing, no interactive information, no nothing. It's like going back to
>>> the dark ages.
>> 
>> For what it's worth, I've been using ksh since 1989 and while it supports
>> filename completion, I've never used it (since I use vi-style command
>> line editing, it takes more than just the tab key to invoke completion).
>
>Never used ksh, but it still certainly sounds like miles from sh.

Indeed, ksh is quite powerful - you can even access arbitrary shared
library functions linked in at runtime;  has associative arrays and
a host of other useful scripting features (ksh93).

>
>I don't expect people will really get involved in TOPS-20 EXEC now, but 
>if you were to use it for a while, I think you'd start see my point. :-)

I find most of those old command interpreters limited and unusable after
using the korn shell for so many years.   I could give TOPS-20 EXEC
a try on simh someday to see, but I don't expect to like it much;
I suppose I could try to port the COBOL startrek game to COBOL on
the PDP-10 someday when I have absolutely nothing else to do :-)

>
>If you ever use Cisco gear, you might have gotten some taste of it as 
>well...

I got an offer to join the IOS team (and an offer from NetApp at the
same time), but turned them down and went to SGI instead - both Cisco
and Netapp would have been financially more lucrative in the long run, sadly.

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#8496

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>On 2022-03-07 18:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>> On 2022-03-07 16:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>>>>
>>> 
>>>>
>>>> It's very similar to how you'll feel today if someone throws /bin/sh at
>>>> you, and you are used to tcsh or bash. No filename completion, no line
>>>> editing, no interactive information, no nothing. It's like going back to
>>>> the dark ages.
>>> 
>>> For what it's worth, I've been using ksh since 1989 and while it supports
>>> filename completion, I've never used it (since I use vi-style command
>>> line editing, it takes more than just the tab key to invoke completion).
>>
>>Never used ksh, but it still certainly sounds like miles from sh.
>
> Indeed, ksh is quite powerful - you can even access arbitrary shared
> library functions linked in at runtime;  has associative arrays and
> a host of other useful scripting features (ksh93).

ksh has lots of good stuff, but miles from sh doesn't seem right.
It's very much like sh to a casual user.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#8498

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>On 2022-03-07 18:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>>> On 2022-03-07 16:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>>>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> It's very similar to how you'll feel today if someone throws /bin/sh at
>>>>> you, and you are used to tcsh or bash. No filename completion, no line
>>>>> editing, no interactive information, no nothing. It's like going back to
>>>>> the dark ages.
>>>> 
>>>> For what it's worth, I've been using ksh since 1989 and while it supports
>>>> filename completion, I've never used it (since I use vi-style command
>>>> line editing, it takes more than just the tab key to invoke completion).
>>>
>>>Never used ksh, but it still certainly sounds like miles from sh.
>>
>> Indeed, ksh is quite powerful - you can even access arbitrary shared
>> library functions linked in at runtime;  has associative arrays and
>> a host of other useful scripting features (ksh93).
>
>ksh has lots of good stuff, but miles from sh doesn't seem right.
>It's very much like sh to a casual user.

by design.

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#8497

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 20:18:28 +0100
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

> On 2022-03-07 18:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> >> On 2022-03-07 16:07, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
> >>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> >>>>
> > 
> >>
> >> It's very similar to how you'll feel today if someone throws /bin/sh at
> >> you, and you are used to tcsh or bash. No filename completion, no line
> >> editing, no interactive information, no nothing. It's like going back
> >> to the dark ages.
> > 
> > For what it's worth, I've been using ksh since 1989 and while it
> > supports filename completion, I've never used it (since I use vi-style
> > command line editing, it takes more than just the tab key to invoke
> > completion).
> 
> Never used ksh, but it still certainly sounds like miles from sh.

	It's surprisingly close - basically sh with history and filename
completion added, much of bash history manipulation comes from ksh the rest
from csh.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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#8501

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:

>> I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals.  Is DCL a separate program,
>> like the TOPS-20 EXEC?  Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?

> VMS is an odd beast in that respect.  The VAX had a four privilege
> rings (aside: interestingly enough, the relatively recent ARMv8
> architecture also has four privilege rings (with a fifth coming soon)).

> The kernel ran in the most privileged ring, Kernel Mode.   RMS (mainly
> derived from RSX-11, IIRC, and authored by Andy Goldstein (IIRC again))
> ran in the next most privileged ring (Executive Mode).   The Command
> Interpreter (DCL) ran in the next ring (Supervisor Mode), and user
> applications ran in the least privileged ring (User Mode).

Interestingly, the *2nd generation* PDP-10, the KI-10 processor, implemented a
4-level privilege model:  Kernel, Executive, Public, and User.  Tops-10 ran
mostly in Executive mode, with only some of the most sensitive routines done in
Kernel mode.  Public mode was a user-level mode (i.e., no privileged
instructions such as I/O operations) which allowed for system services similar
to dynamic libraries in modern Unix-style operating systems, but serving a
different purpose.  User mode was the bog standard mode for any program not
requiring elevated privileges.

(Public mode was used by the system services such as spoolers so that user
 programs did not need to use system calls to interact with unit record
 equipment.)

> As with most[*] ring-based privilege architectures, ring switches were
> expensive and I believe once they went to Alpha, that architecture was
> pretty much dead.

The KI model was not ring-based in the way that I understand rings (based on
early Multics writings, mostly); it was simply a matter of a couple of bits in
the process status.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#8502

Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>
>>> I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals.  Is DCL a separate program,
>>> like the TOPS-20 EXEC?  Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?
>
>> VMS is an odd beast in that respect.  The VAX had a four privilege
>> rings (aside: interestingly enough, the relatively recent ARMv8
>> architecture also has four privilege rings (with a fifth coming soon)).
>
>> The kernel ran in the most privileged ring, Kernel Mode.   RMS (mainly
>> derived from RSX-11, IIRC, and authored by Andy Goldstein (IIRC again))
>> ran in the next most privileged ring (Executive Mode).   The Command
>> Interpreter (DCL) ran in the next ring (Supervisor Mode), and user
>> applications ran in the least privileged ring (User Mode).
>
>Interestingly, the *2nd generation* PDP-10, the KI-10 processor, implemented a
>4-level privilege model:  Kernel, Executive, Public, and User.  Tops-10 ran
>mostly in Executive mode, with only some of the most sensitive routines done in
>Kernel mode.  Public mode was a user-level mode (i.e., no privileged
>instructions such as I/O operations) which allowed for system services similar
>to dynamic libraries in modern Unix-style operating systems, but serving a
>different purpose.  User mode was the bog standard mode for any program not
>requiring elevated privileges.
>
>(Public mode was used by the system services such as spoolers so that user
> programs did not need to use system calls to interact with unit record
> equipment.)
>
>> As with most[*] ring-based privilege architectures, ring switches were
>> expensive and I believe once they went to Alpha, that architecture was
>> pretty much dead.
>
>The KI model was not ring-based in the way that I understand rings (based on
>early Multics writings, mostly); it was simply a matter of a couple of bits in
>the process status.

It's changing between rings that is the primary issue as that often
includes a change in the memory context (e.g. x86 segment, active page
table) resulting in a performance hit.   E.g. UUO's/system calls.

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#8504

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>
>>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>
>>>> I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals.  Is DCL a separate program,
>>>> like the TOPS-20 EXEC?  Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?
>>
>>> VMS is an odd beast in that respect.  The VAX had a four privilege
>>> rings (aside: interestingly enough, the relatively recent ARMv8
>>> architecture also has four privilege rings (with a fifth coming soon)).
>>
>>> The kernel ran in the most privileged ring, Kernel Mode.   RMS (mainly
>>> derived from RSX-11, IIRC, and authored by Andy Goldstein (IIRC again))
>>> ran in the next most privileged ring (Executive Mode).   The Command
>>> Interpreter (DCL) ran in the next ring (Supervisor Mode), and user
>>> applications ran in the least privileged ring (User Mode).
>>
>>Interestingly, the *2nd generation* PDP-10, the KI-10 processor, implemented a
>>4-level privilege model:  Kernel, Executive, Public, and User.  Tops-10 ran
>>mostly in Executive mode, with only some of the most sensitive routines done in
>>Kernel mode.  Public mode was a user-level mode (i.e., no privileged
>>instructions such as I/O operations) which allowed for system services similar
>>to dynamic libraries in modern Unix-style operating systems, but serving a
>>different purpose.  User mode was the bog standard mode for any program not
>>requiring elevated privileges.
>>
>>(Public mode was used by the system services such as spoolers so that user
>> programs did not need to use system calls to interact with unit record
>> equipment.)
>>
>>> As with most[*] ring-based privilege architectures, ring switches were
>>> expensive and I believe once they went to Alpha, that architecture was
>>> pretty much dead.
>>
>>The KI model was not ring-based in the way that I understand rings (based on
>>early Multics writings, mostly); it was simply a matter of a couple of bits in
>>the process status.
>
>It's changing between rings that is the primary issue as that often
>includes a change in the memory context (e.g. x86 segment, active page
>table) resulting in a performance hit.   E.g. UUO's/system calls.

What really killed it on the VAX was multiple ring changes for many
operations (file operations executed in executive mode, and they
called kernel mode facilities like $QIO/$QIOW).   On the other hand,
user mode could make requests to DCL with a change mode to supervisor
call.

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#8505

On 2022-03-07 23:58, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>> It's changing between rings that is the primary issue as that often
>> includes a change in the memory context (e.g. x86 segment, active page
>> table) resulting in a performance hit.   E.g. UUO's/system calls.
> 
> What really killed it on the VAX was multiple ring changes for many
> operations (file operations executed in executive mode, and they
> called kernel mode facilities like $QIO/$QIOW).   On the other hand,
> user mode could make requests to DCL with a change mode to supervisor
> call.

What do you mean "killed it on the VAX"? Changing mode means trapping to 
the OS. Doing a system call means trapping to the OS. Is a change mode 
any more costly than any system call? No.

Are you claiming there is some extra performance penalty here?

You could argue that the changing of modes carried a performance 
benefit, since it meant you did not need to switch context to another 
process, and you did not need to flush TLBs and so on, since the memory 
mapping is unchanged. Changing modes effectively just changed what parts 
of memory was accessible, apart from kernel mode which allowed some 
instructions not allowed otherwise.
And that is also why implementing the whole thing on a processor with 
fewer modes isn't really a big deal. It's just a question of what your 
page table looks like. And that can obviously be changed whenever you 
trap into the OS anyway.

   Johnny

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