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Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief

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  Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-12 00:45 -0400
    Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-07-12 03:04 -0400
      Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-12 11:02 -0400
        Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2025-07-12 17:24 +0200
        Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-07-12 19:14 -0400
          Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-12 20:46 -0400
            Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-07-13 01:58 -0400
              Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2025-07-13 11:35 +0200
                Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-13 19:20 -0400
                  Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-13 22:20 -0400
                  Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-07-14 01:36 -0400
                    Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-15 19:26 -0400
                      Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-07-16 04:44 -0400
                        Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-16 09:34 -0400
                          Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-07-16 11:11 -0400
                            Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-16 17:19 -0400
                              new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-31 22:48 -0400
                                Re: new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-01 05:16 -0400
                                Re: new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2025-08-02 14:59 +0300
                                  Re: new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-08-03 06:29 -0400
    Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2025-07-12 10:23 +0200
      Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-07-12 08:53 -0400
        Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2025-07-12 17:11 +0200
    Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-01 14:02 +0200
      Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-01 09:41 -0400
        Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-01 19:49 +0200
      Re: Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-08-03 06:29 -0400

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#81687 — Asus x870e Proart Creator motherboard: more grief

Minutes after the last posts I went into BIOS to take out the CPU native 
GPU by setting Integrated Graphics to Disabled and leaving the PCIe GPU 
as Primary. On reboot (NO beeps on the these new boards) got a steady 
yellow Q-Led mening RAM problems. Reseated one ddr5 card and went with 
only that one. It worked, reseated the other one too. The yellow LED now 
lasts about 1:30 and then the white LED (GPU) takes over. This one 
doesn't leave, not after reseating the GPU, not after removing it and 
plugging the HDMI into the onboard slot instead of the GPU one, not 
after changing HDMI cables and even monitor. CMOS was cleared at every 
step. The green (boot) LED never lights up, with no disk plugged in BIOS 
is never entered. Starting to have enough of this outfit (the GPU is 
also Asus)!

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#81688

On Sat, 7/12/2025 12:45 AM, bad sector wrote:
> Minutes after the last posts I went into BIOS to take out the CPU native GPU by setting Integrated Graphics to Disabled and leaving the PCIe GPU as Primary. On reboot (NO beeps on the these new boards) got a steady yellow Q-Led mening RAM problems. Reseated one ddr5 card and went with only that one. It worked, reseated the other one too. The yellow LED now lasts about 1:30 and then the white LED (GPU) takes over. This one doesn't leave, not after reseating the GPU, not after removing it and plugging the HDMI into the onboard slot instead of the GPU one, not after changing HDMI cables and even monitor. CMOS was cleared at every step. The green (boot) LED never lights up, with no disk plugged in BIOS is never entered. Starting to have enough of this outfit (the GPU is also Asus)!
> 

You have to be very careful, with some of the stuff you mentioned in passing.

The CMOS can only be cleared, with mains disconnected.

When reseating materials, it is a good idea to have mains disconnected
for that too.

You can try taking it back to the single-stick-NON-ECC and see if
you can bring it up that way.

1) Power off.
2) Remove plugin GPU.
3) Put ECC RAM in its antistatic package.
4) Put the "teaser RAM" that brought it up one time before,
   into the far slot on one of the memory channels.
5) Plug HDMI monitor cable into motherboard.
6) Power up, wait patiently for recovery :-)
   Remember the annoying habit of "BIOS, taking longer after a change".

The monitor I'm typing on (X193W 1440x900) is flaking out, I think three power fails
and one lightning storm, have disturbed its gentle nature. It's
every time it goes into power-save, it is getting very hard to
bring it back from the dead.

It's a good thing I own several mallets.

   Paul

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#81691

On 7/12/25 3:04 AM, Paul wrote:
> On Sat, 7/12/2025 12:45 AM, bad sector wrote:
>> Minutes after the last posts I went into BIOS to take out the CPU native GPU by setting Integrated Graphics to Disabled and leaving the PCIe GPU as Primary. On reboot (NO beeps on the these new boards) got a steady yellow Q-Led mening RAM problems. Reseated one ddr5 card and went with only that one. It worked, reseated the other one too. The yellow LED now lasts about 1:30 and then the white LED (GPU) takes over. This one doesn't leave, not after reseating the GPU, not after removing it and plugging the HDMI into the onboard slot instead of the GPU one, not after changing HDMI cables and even monitor. CMOS was cleared at every step. The green (boot) LED never lights up, with no disk plugged in BIOS is never entered. Starting to have enough of this outfit (the GPU is also Asus)!
>>
> 
> You have to be very careful, with some of the stuff you mentioned in passing.
> 
> The CMOS can only be cleared, with mains disconnected.
> 
> When reseating materials, it is a good idea to have mains disconnected
> for that too.
> 
> You can try taking it back to the single-stick-NON-ECC and see if
> you can bring it up that way.
> 
> 1) Power off.
> 2) Remove plugin GPU.
> 3) Put ECC RAM in its antistatic package.
> 4) Put the "teaser RAM" that brought it up one time before,
>     into the far slot on one of the memory channels.
> 5) Plug HDMI monitor cable into motherboard.
> 6) Power up, wait patiently for recovery :-)
>     Remember the annoying habit of "BIOS, taking longer after a change".

Stripped it naked..

Seated single 8gb non-ecc ddr5 in slot 2 [A2]..  green

BIOS-1401 to defaults, put everything back in... green

Swapped ecc-B into slot 2 [A2].. green

Swapped ecc-A into slot 2 [A2].. green

Seated  ecc-B into slot 4 [B2].. WHITE led (VGA fail)

Disabled ecc in BIOS and repeated the above.. green

Swapped non-ecc 8gb ddr5 into slot 4 [B2].. green

BIOS-1401, enabled ecc.. green

Returned ecc-B into slot 4 [B2].. YELLOW led (DRAM fail)

Removed ecc-B from slot 4 [B2].. green

BIOS-1401, disabled integrated graphics.. green

Returned ecc-B into slot 4[B2].. YELLOW (DRAM fail)

Swapped ecc's in the 2 slots..

...... either ecc card works in slot 2 [A2]
...... slot 4 [B2] fails with either ecc card in it

taking a break, million other chores awaiting.



> The monitor I'm typing on (X193W 1440x900) is flaking out, I think three power fails
> and one lightning storm, have disturbed its gentle nature. It's
> every time it goes into power-save, it is getting very hard to
> bring it back from the dead.
> 
> It's a good thing I own several mallets.
> 
>     Paul
> 

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#81693

On 12/07/2025 17.02, bad sector wrote:

> ...... either ecc card works in slot 2 [A2]
> ...... slot 4 [B2] fails with either ecc card in it
> 
> taking a break, million other chores awaiting.

If you have a can of air, you could spray port, in case there is some 
dust in the port and test once more. Just wait a bit before you plugin 
the ram again so that the slot ain't wet.

Also, would upgrade the BIOS, 1504 has some DIMM-slot related fixes and 
1512 has a vulnerability patch, but if you install this one you can't 
downgrade to older versions.

-- 
  //Aho

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#81695

On Sat, 7/12/2025 11:02 AM, bad sector wrote:
> On 7/12/25 3:04 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On Sat, 7/12/2025 12:45 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>> Minutes after the last posts I went into BIOS to take out the CPU native GPU by setting Integrated Graphics to Disabled and leaving the PCIe GPU as Primary. On reboot (NO beeps on the these new boards) got a steady yellow Q-Led mening RAM problems. Reseated one ddr5 card and went with only that one. It worked, reseated the other one too. The yellow LED now lasts about 1:30 and then the white LED (GPU) takes over. This one doesn't leave, not after reseating the GPU, not after removing it and plugging the HDMI into the onboard slot instead of the GPU one, not after changing HDMI cables and even monitor. CMOS was cleared at every step. The green (boot) LED never lights up, with no disk plugged in BIOS is never entered. Starting to have enough of this outfit (the GPU is also Asus)!
>>>
>>
>> You have to be very careful, with some of the stuff you mentioned in passing.
>>
>> The CMOS can only be cleared, with mains disconnected.
>>
>> When reseating materials, it is a good idea to have mains disconnected
>> for that too.
>>
>> You can try taking it back to the single-stick-NON-ECC and see if
>> you can bring it up that way.
>>
>> 1) Power off.
>> 2) Remove plugin GPU.
>> 3) Put ECC RAM in its antistatic package.
>> 4) Put the "teaser RAM" that brought it up one time before,
>>     into the far slot on one of the memory channels.
>> 5) Plug HDMI monitor cable into motherboard.
>> 6) Power up, wait patiently for recovery :-)
>>     Remember the annoying habit of "BIOS, taking longer after a change".
> 
> Stripped it naked..
> 
> Seated single 8gb non-ecc ddr5 in slot 2 [A2]..  green
> 
> BIOS-1401 to defaults, put everything back in... green
> 
> Swapped ecc-B into slot 2 [A2].. green
> 
> Swapped ecc-A into slot 2 [A2].. green
> 
> Seated  ecc-B into slot 4 [B2].. WHITE led (VGA fail)
> 
> Disabled ecc in BIOS and repeated the above.. green
> 
> Swapped non-ecc 8gb ddr5 into slot 4 [B2].. green
> 
> BIOS-1401, enabled ecc.. green
> 
> Returned ecc-B into slot 4 [B2].. YELLOW led (DRAM fail)
> 
> Removed ecc-B from slot 4 [B2].. green
> 
> BIOS-1401, disabled integrated graphics.. green
> 
> Returned ecc-B into slot 4[B2].. YELLOW (DRAM fail)
> 
> Swapped ecc's in the 2 slots..
> 
> ...... either ecc card works in slot 2 [A2]
> ...... slot 4 [B2] fails with either ecc card in it
> 
> taking a break, million other chores awaiting.
> 

The CPU is Land Grid Array. (Very sharp metallic spring bites
into gold plated land.) Normally, this is reproducible any time
the CPU is removed and replaced. And the arm that applies pressure
is locked down. The pin sharp point, always goes precisely back
into the bite mark.

Is the CPU arm locked down right now ? You could have some pretty substantial
cooler on it, so sometimes inspection is difficult.

Land Grid Array works up to (so far), around 9000 contacts,
but I have no idea how the "pressing-force" is equally distributed
so all the lands have good spring contact. The hobby CPUs don't
have nearly the same LGA counts.

There have been CPUs that burned in sockets, because of poor contact.
There were two brands of sockets, Lotes (good) and Foxconn.
The Foxconn issue was not repeated on the next generation.

The generation I use here (AM4) is PGA or pin grid array. And the
socket is ZIF (Zero Insertion Force). Moving the lever on those,
provides side force making the "contacts touch the pins". When you
remove a heatsink on those, you can pull the CPU right out of the
("locked") PGA socket :-) That does not hurt anything. There have been
cases where PGA pins were crushed. A metallic ball point pen refill, could
be used to (carefully) bend a PGA pin upright again. And that kind of
surgery is not always successful (but, ya gotta try). When you make a mistake
and that happens, you can usually tell the patient is not going to survive
the attempt to straighten a pin.

*******

DIMM socket pins, almost never foul...

It would take a determined individual, bent on destruction,
to do actual damage to a DIMM socket. The pins are very very stiff.
It takes mallet-level attempts to damage it, to mess it up. I
highly doubt there is any reason whatsoever, to be "cleaning"
the DIMM socket.

Similarly, the "pink eraser crowd", I'm not with them. Gold on
electronics, can be applied 10u or 50u. The latter thickness
is used on telecomm contacts. The former number is used
on computer industry equipment. Applying abrasives to
10u gold is a "mistake", doing more damage than good. There
are already pinholes in the finish, due to the thinness of
the plating.

There is so much wiping-force on DIMM insertion, there can't possibly
be a contact problem. Only a corrosive liquid (Kings Reagent would do),
could do a job on the contacts.

I just don't see a reason to be fooling around with the socket.
I'd rather reseat the CPU, then bash on the RAM (the RAM interface
is on the CPU package). There's no question something bad is going on,
 but it probably isn't the fault of the DIMM contact there. If you actually
managed to bend a DIMM contact (!), the DIMM would no longer seat and lock.

I've visually inspected DIMM sockets with a magnifier, and have
not had a reason to be suspicious of what I'm seeing.

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#81696

On 7/12/25 7:14 PM, Paul wrote:
> On Sat, 7/12/2025 11:02 AM, bad sector wrote:
>> On 7/12/25 3:04 AM, Paul wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7/12/2025 12:45 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>>> Minutes after the last posts I went into BIOS to take out the CPU native GPU by setting Integrated Graphics to Disabled and leaving the PCIe GPU as Primary. On reboot (NO beeps on the these new boards) got a steady yellow Q-Led mening RAM problems. Reseated one ddr5 card and went with only that one. It worked, reseated the other one too. The yellow LED now lasts about 1:30 and then the white LED (GPU) takes over. This one doesn't leave, not after reseating the GPU, not after removing it and plugging the HDMI into the onboard slot instead of the GPU one, not after changing HDMI cables and even monitor. CMOS was cleared at every step. The green (boot) LED never lights up, with no disk plugged in BIOS is never entered. Starting to have enough of this outfit (the GPU is also Asus)!
>>>>
>>>
>>> You have to be very careful, with some of the stuff you mentioned in passing.
>>>
>>> The CMOS can only be cleared, with mains disconnected.
>>>
>>> When reseating materials, it is a good idea to have mains disconnected
>>> for that too.
>>>
>>> You can try taking it back to the single-stick-NON-ECC and see if
>>> you can bring it up that way.
>>>
>>> 1) Power off.
>>> 2) Remove plugin GPU.
>>> 3) Put ECC RAM in its antistatic package.
>>> 4) Put the "teaser RAM" that brought it up one time before,
>>>      into the far slot on one of the memory channels.
>>> 5) Plug HDMI monitor cable into motherboard.
>>> 6) Power up, wait patiently for recovery :-)
>>>      Remember the annoying habit of "BIOS, taking longer after a change".
>>
>> Stripped it naked..
>>
>> Seated single 8gb non-ecc ddr5 in slot 2 [A2]..  green
>>
>> BIOS-1401 to defaults, put everything back in... green
>>
>> Swapped ecc-B into slot 2 [A2].. green
>>
>> Swapped ecc-A into slot 2 [A2].. green
>>
>> Seated  ecc-B into slot 4 [B2].. WHITE led (VGA fail)
>>
>> Disabled ecc in BIOS and repeated the above.. green
>>
>> Swapped non-ecc 8gb ddr5 into slot 4 [B2].. green
>>
>> BIOS-1401, enabled ecc.. green
>>
>> Returned ecc-B into slot 4 [B2].. YELLOW led (DRAM fail)
>>
>> Removed ecc-B from slot 4 [B2].. green
>>
>> BIOS-1401, disabled integrated graphics.. green
>>
>> Returned ecc-B into slot 4[B2].. YELLOW (DRAM fail)
>>
>> Swapped ecc's in the 2 slots..
>>
>> ...... either ecc card works in slot 2 [A2]
>> ...... slot 4 [B2] fails with either ecc card in it
>>
>> taking a break, million other chores awaiting.
>>
> 
> The CPU is Land Grid Array. (Very sharp metallic spring bites
> into gold plated land.) Normally, this is reproducible any time
> the CPU is removed and replaced. And the arm that applies pressure
> is locked down. The pin sharp point, always goes precisely back
> into the bite mark.
> 
> Is the CPU arm locked down right now ? You could have some pretty substantial
> cooler on it, so sometimes inspection is difficult.
> 
> Land Grid Array works up to (so far), around 9000 contacts,
> but I have no idea how the "pressing-force" is equally distributed
> so all the lands have good spring contact. The hobby CPUs don't
> have nearly the same LGA counts.
> 
> There have been CPUs that burned in sockets, because of poor contact.
> There were two brands of sockets, Lotes (good) and Foxconn.
> The Foxconn issue was not repeated on the next generation.
> 
> The generation I use here (AM4) is PGA or pin grid array. And the
> socket is ZIF (Zero Insertion Force). Moving the lever on those,
> provides side force making the "contacts touch the pins". When you
> remove a heatsink on those, you can pull the CPU right out of the
> ("locked") PGA socket :-) That does not hurt anything. There have been
> cases where PGA pins were crushed. A metallic ball point pen refill, could
> be used to (carefully) bend a PGA pin upright again. And that kind of
> surgery is not always successful (but, ya gotta try). When you make a mistake
> and that happens, you can usually tell the patient is not going to survive
> the attempt to straighten a pin.
> 
> *******
> 
> DIMM socket pins, almost never foul...
> 
> It would take a determined individual, bent on destruction,
> to do actual damage to a DIMM socket. The pins are very very stiff.
> It takes mallet-level attempts to damage it, to mess it up. I
> highly doubt there is any reason whatsoever, to be "cleaning"
> the DIMM socket.
> 
> Similarly, the "pink eraser crowd", I'm not with them. Gold on
> electronics, can be applied 10u or 50u. The latter thickness
> is used on telecomm contacts. The former number is used
> on computer industry equipment. Applying abrasives to
> 10u gold is a "mistake", doing more damage than good. There
> are already pinholes in the finish, due to the thinness of
> the plating.
> 
> There is so much wiping-force on DIMM insertion, there can't possibly
> be a contact problem. Only a corrosive liquid (Kings Reagent would do),
> could do a job on the contacts.
> 
> I just don't see a reason to be fooling around with the socket.
> I'd rather reseat the CPU, then bash on the RAM (the RAM interface
> is on the CPU package). There's no question something bad is going on,
>   but it probably isn't the fault of the DIMM contact there. If you actually
> managed to bend a DIMM contact (!), the DIMM would no longer seat and lock.
> 
> I've visually inspected DIMM sockets with a magnifier, and have
> not had a reason to be suspicious of what I'm seeing.
> 
>     Paul

I never touched the CPU, the next boot failed after I edited the BIOS 
and among a few other things disabled the CPU-native graphics.

Then following your advice I managed to reboot into BIOS, ultimately 
able to launch an OS. I ha it made using 1/2 of my memory!

J. O. Aho suggested and I prepped a BIOS upgrade usb drive (there are 3 
different BIOS sections in the manual, all of them full of mistakes).

As I pressed the bios flash button the LED never illuminated so after 
about 6 seconds I let it go.

Now I cannot get past the yellow (ram) LED no matter what ddr5 I set in 
no matter what ram slot.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#81697

On Sat, 7/12/2025 8:46 PM, bad sector wrote:

> 
> I never touched the CPU, the next boot failed after I edited the BIOS and among a few other things disabled the CPU-native graphics.
> 
> Then following your advice I managed to reboot into BIOS, ultimately able to launch an OS. I ha it made using 1/2 of my memory!
> 
> J. O. Aho suggested and I prepped a BIOS upgrade usb drive (there are 3 different BIOS sections in the manual, all of them full of mistakes).
> 
> As I pressed the bios flash button the LED never illuminated so after about 6 seconds I let it go.
> 
> Now I cannot get past the yellow (ram) LED no matter what ddr5 I set in no matter what ram slot.
> 

Hmmm.

Restore non-ECC DIMM in the "best working socket" your previous testing revealed.

You are likely going to need to flash the BIOS back to some
previous version, at a guess.

On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
get back in control of the machine.

*******

The purpose of a non-bricking BIOS design, is to never erase the bootstrap section.

Then, one of the BIOS flashing options, should always have an interpreter ready to
read the USB stick and FAT file system, find the named file, and flash it in.

I don't know if that BIOS flashing code has been written to work with
only CPU registers (so a non-working memory is not a problem). Some of the BIOs
code must operate that way, in order so the BIOS code can commission the DRAM
subsystem.

On my ten year old machine, the flasher is a chip connected right to the USB port.

On my three year old machine, the CPU and RAM must be working, for a flash operation
to move forward. Which means, even if AGESA isn't optimal, there is some code
present that can do a flash, but a lot more things can still go wrong. It is
definitely not as foolproof as a flasher-chip type solution.

When a "machine has a button", we don't really know how that works. and while you
would hope a flasher-chip, if it existed, would be physically placed near the
USB stack that supports flashing, the board layout could be such the chip is
just about anywhere. But usually the layout done by humans, the chip is closer
to where it is being used, rather than being routed across from the other side
of the board.

We don't know, if the flasher button terminates in a GPIO signal on the SOC portion
of the CPU, or whether it terminates on a flasher-chip. I guess that is part of the
fun. Even when you have a flasher-chip, the board *still* has firmware or software
based flashing options, in addition to the "unbrickable" USB flasher chip.

*******

You may be at the point, you're going to need to take this in somewhere, and
see if a techie can flash it back to something that works. You *used* to be
able to flash a BIOS backwards, but it took some standalone flasher and an
MSDOS boot media, to "free-form flash", meaning a version check was not
done on purpose, and you could move backwards. We stopped using such flashers,
more than ten years ago, which is why I'm kinda wondering what options
are available for going back to an older version.

At a minimum, what is supposed to happen, is a model number string in the
BIOS image is checked, so you can't flash in the BIOS from some other board.
The version is a separate issue. The only interface you may have, is a
single LED, where the "blink frequency" is all that tells you whether
the flash is ongoing, or, the blinking represents a failure on the
users part, to pass all the model and version number requirements. A single
LED has a definite lack of expressive power.

The behavior of the machine I'm typing this on, changed after a year. The
machine seemed to develop an address map problem. Shutting off the iGPU and
using an NVidia video card, was part of the solution. My first hint of
(some sort of) trouble, was the RealTek Ethernet chip would stop sending/receiving
packets after 30 seconds. At first I thought I had a DNS problem, but no, the chip
just stopped after 30 seconds (looked driver-related). I purchased a replacement
Intel NIC (possibly a Startech), and shut off the RealTek in the BIOS. And after
that, I was "back in control" after a fashion, but this is only a superficial fix,
and whatever is wrong in there, still seems to be wrong. And in my case,
flashing up (a couple times to date), made absolutely no difference to the
symptom set. It wasn't like an older BIOS was "bugged" and a newer one made
a difference.

But at this point, until things stabilize in your computer room, you'll be
working with the non-ECC DRAM in its "best" socket. While you try to
re-gain a stable BIOS behavior.

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#81698

On 13/07/2025 07.58, Paul wrote:
> On Sat, 7/12/2025 8:46 PM, bad sector wrote:
> 
>>
>> I never touched the CPU, the next boot failed after I edited the BIOS and among a few other things disabled the CPU-native graphics.
>>
>> Then following your advice I managed to reboot into BIOS, ultimately able to launch an OS. I ha it made using 1/2 of my memory!
>>
>> J. O. Aho suggested and I prepped a BIOS upgrade usb drive (there are 3 different BIOS sections in the manual, all of them full of mistakes).
>>
>> As I pressed the bios flash button the LED never illuminated so after about 6 seconds I let it go.
>>
>> Now I cannot get past the yellow (ram) LED no matter what ddr5 I set in no matter what ram slot.
>>
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> Restore non-ECC DIMM in the "best working socket" your previous testing revealed.
> 
> You are likely going to need to flash the BIOS back to some
> previous version, at a guess.
> 
> On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
> is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
> get back in control of the machine.

This been true on my earlier Asus boards, my current one is an ASRock, 
which is a bit different compared with Asus branded. Both have the 
common on newer cards that you should be able to flash from usb with a 
clean board, described on page 57 in the manual for the ProArt x870e 
Creator (copy can be downloaded from asus homepage).


> You may be at the point, you're going to need to take this in somewhere, and
> see if a techie can flash it back to something that works. You *used* to be
> able to flash a BIOS backwards, but it took some standalone flasher and an
> MSDOS boot media, to "free-form flash", meaning a version check was not
> done on purpose, and you could move backwards. We stopped using such flashers,
> more than ten years ago, which is why I'm kinda wondering what options
> are available for going back to an older version.

Asus do tell when you can and can't downgrade, the 1512 isn't 
down-gradable while 1504 is but just till another version has the text 
mentioning that you can't downgrade.

I think the BIOS version is connected to the AGESA which I don't think 
do support downgrades (don't take my word for it).

-- 
  //Aho

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#81699

On 7/13/25 5:35 AM, J.O. Aho wrote:
> On 13/07/2025 07.58, Paul wrote:

>> On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
>> is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
>> get back in control of the machine.
> 
> This been true on my earlier Asus boards, my current one is an ASRock, 
> which is a bit different compared with Asus branded. Both have the 
> common on newer cards that you should be able to flash from usb with a 
> clean board, described on page 57 in the manual for the ProArt x870e 
> Creator (copy can be downloaded from asus homepage).


That's one of three sections I was looking at but it's unclear, I'll 
also include a link to a youtube video for the benefit of anyone 
googling for info.

3.3 ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3
=========================

..
2. Rename the file using one of the following methods:

   - Launch the BIOSRenamer.exe application to
     automatically rename the file.

   - Manually rename the file to the BIOS CAP filename
     specified in the Specifications summary section.

     (A5560.CAP in my manual)

   - Manually rename the file to ASUS.CAP.

so is it A5560.CAP or ASUS.CAP?
The download page says to use A5560.CAP


3. Copy the renamed file to your USB storage device.

4. Turn on the system.

5. Insert the USB flash drive containing the BIOS file
    to a USB port.

6. The utility automatically checks the devices for the
    BIOS file. When found, the utility reads the BIOS
    file and enters ASUS EZ Flash 3 automatically.

... WHICH 'utility'?


7. The system requires you to enter BIOS Setup to recover
    the BIOS setting. To ensure system compatibility and
    stability, we recommend that you press the <F5> hotkey
    to load default BIOS values.

... Presumably the BIOS is loaded (with some data) enough to be 
'enterable' to be then reset to defaults. What is the data loaded if it 
is not 'defaults'?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6FbJwVg8Y

includes a step missing in the manual which possibly explains that the 
'utility' is in fact the UEFI BIOS setup:

@ 1:34
   it shows a winblows BIOSRenamer doing the renaming
   but I can't make out what it ranames to

@ 2:01
  - insert usb
  - power ON, *then*
  "Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS"

This one to get the CrashFree BIOS 3 going


@ 2:26
  "the system will auto reboot"

at which time you again 'Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS

This one to advisedly revert BIOS to 'defaults'


So..

- I disconnected everything down to a near naked box

- 8gb non-ecc memory only and in slot 2 [A2]

- cleared CMOS

- plugged in an old cheap keyboard that even my old
   crosshair-IV can detect (as opposed to DURGOD-320
   which in 15 years it detected maybe 20 times)

- inserted the 14gb fat32 usb labeled ESD-USB with
   only one file on it
   A5560.CAP size = 33,558,528 (32.0 mb)

- powered ON

- held the 'Del' key for over 3 minutes

- repeated with a freshly downloaded/unpacked/renamed file

All I got was the yellow (DRAM) LED.

So much for the *ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3* that works after a BIOS hose.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#81700

On 7/13/25 7:20 PM, bad sector wrote:
> On 7/13/25 5:35 AM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>> On 13/07/2025 07.58, Paul wrote:
> 
>>> On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
>>> is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
>>> get back in control of the machine.
>>
>> This been true on my earlier Asus boards, my current one is an ASRock, 
>> which is a bit different compared with Asus branded. Both have the 
>> common on newer cards that you should be able to flash from usb with a 
>> clean board, described on page 57 in the manual for the ProArt x870e 
>> Creator (copy can be downloaded from asus homepage).
> 
> 
> That's one of three sections I was looking at but it's unclear, I'll 
> also include a link to a youtube video for the benefit of anyone 
> googling for info.
> 
> 3.3 ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3
> =========================
> 
> ..
> 2. Rename the file using one of the following methods:
> 
>    - Launch the BIOSRenamer.exe application to
>      automatically rename the file.
> 
>    - Manually rename the file to the BIOS CAP filename
>      specified in the Specifications summary section.
> 
>      (A5560.CAP in my manual)
> 
>    - Manually rename the file to ASUS.CAP.
> 
> so is it A5560.CAP or ASUS.CAP?
> The download page says to use A5560.CAP
> 
> 
> 3. Copy the renamed file to your USB storage device.
> 
> 4. Turn on the system.
> 
> 5. Insert the USB flash drive containing the BIOS file
>     to a USB port.
> 
> 6. The utility automatically checks the devices for the
>     BIOS file. When found, the utility reads the BIOS
>     file and enters ASUS EZ Flash 3 automatically.
> 
> ... WHICH 'utility'?
> 
> 
> 7. The system requires you to enter BIOS Setup to recover
>     the BIOS setting. To ensure system compatibility and
>     stability, we recommend that you press the <F5> hotkey
>     to load default BIOS values.
> 
> ... Presumably the BIOS is loaded (with some data) enough to be 
> 'enterable' to be then reset to defaults. What is the data loaded if it 
> is not 'defaults'?
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6FbJwVg8Y
> 
> includes a step missing in the manual which possibly explains that the 
> 'utility' is in fact the UEFI BIOS setup:
> 
> @ 1:34
>    it shows a winblows BIOSRenamer doing the renaming
>    but I can't make out what it ranames to
> 
> @ 2:01
>   - insert usb
>   - power ON, *then*
>   "Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS"
> 
> This one to get the CrashFree BIOS 3 going
> 
> 
> @ 2:26
>   "the system will auto reboot"
> 
> at which time you again 'Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS
> 
> This one to advisedly revert BIOS to 'defaults'
> 
> 
> So..
> 
> - I disconnected everything down to a near naked box
> 
> - 8gb non-ecc memory only and in slot 2 [A2]
> 
> - cleared CMOS
> 
> - plugged in an old cheap keyboard that even my old
>    crosshair-IV can detect (as opposed to DURGOD-320
>    which in 15 years it detected maybe 20 times)
> 
> - inserted the 14gb fat32 usb labeled ESD-USB with
>    only one file on it
>    A5560.CAP size = 33,558,528 (32.0 mb)
> 
> - powered ON
> 
> - held the 'Del' key for over 3 minutes
> 
> - repeated with a freshly downloaded/unpacked/renamed file
> 
> All I got was the yellow (DRAM) LED.
> 
> So much for the *ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3* that works after a BIOS hose.
> 
> 


As usual Asus *haven't got a clue* about manual writing!

It should read

- insert usb
- power ON
- Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS
- Observe BIOS GUI interface on Monitor?

OR

Since it is an automatic process does it get done without displaying the 
BIOS GUI interface? Does it get done if no monitor is attached or if the 
monitor is tango uniform? How do you KNOW it is BEING done so as not to 
cut power (seeing that virtually every page cautions against powering 
down WHILE it's being done)? How do I know via some positive feedback, 
other than a monitor, that the CrashFree BIOS 3 process has actually 
started, or do I sit here staring at the yellow LED until the cows come 
home?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#81701

On Sun, 7/13/2025 7:20 PM, bad sector wrote:
> On 7/13/25 5:35 AM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>> On 13/07/2025 07.58, Paul wrote:
> 
>>> On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
>>> is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
>>> get back in control of the machine.
>>
>> This been true on my earlier Asus boards, my current one is an ASRock, which is a bit different compared with Asus branded. Both have the common on newer cards that you should be able to flash from usb with a clean board, described on page 57 in the manual for the ProArt x870e Creator (copy can be downloaded from asus homepage).
> 
> 
> That's one of three sections I was looking at but it's unclear, I'll also include a link to a youtube video for the benefit of anyone googling for info.
> 
> 3.3 ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3
> =========================
> 
> ..
> 2. Rename the file using one of the following methods:
> 
>   - Launch the BIOSRenamer.exe application to
>     automatically rename the file.
> 
>   - Manually rename the file to the BIOS CAP filename
>     specified in the Specifications summary section.
> 
>     (A5560.CAP in my manual)
> 
>   - Manually rename the file to ASUS.CAP.
> 
> so is it A5560.CAP or ASUS.CAP?
> The download page says to use A5560.CAP
> 
> 
> 3. Copy the renamed file to your USB storage device.
> 
> 4. Turn on the system.
> 
> 5. Insert the USB flash drive containing the BIOS file
>    to a USB port.
> 
> 6. The utility automatically checks the devices for the
>    BIOS file. When found, the utility reads the BIOS
>    file and enters ASUS EZ Flash 3 automatically.
> 
> ... WHICH 'utility'?
> 
> 
> 7. The system requires you to enter BIOS Setup to recover
>    the BIOS setting. To ensure system compatibility and
>    stability, we recommend that you press the <F5> hotkey
>    to load default BIOS values.
> 
> ... Presumably the BIOS is loaded (with some data) enough to be 'enterable' to be then reset to defaults. What is the data loaded if it is not 'defaults'?
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6FbJwVg8Y
> 
> includes a step missing in the manual which possibly explains that the 'utility' is in fact the UEFI BIOS setup:
> 
> @ 1:34
>   it shows a winblows BIOSRenamer doing the renaming
>   but I can't make out what it ranames to
> 
> @ 2:01
>  - insert usb
>  - power ON, *then*
>  "Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS"
> 
> This one to get the CrashFree BIOS 3 going
> 
> 
> @ 2:26
>  "the system will auto reboot"
> 
> at which time you again 'Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS
> 
> This one to advisedly revert BIOS to 'defaults'
> 
> 
> So..
> 
> - I disconnected everything down to a near naked box
> 
> - 8gb non-ecc memory only and in slot 2 [A2]
> 
> - cleared CMOS
> 
> - plugged in an old cheap keyboard that even my old
>   crosshair-IV can detect (as opposed to DURGOD-320
>   which in 15 years it detected maybe 20 times)
> 
> - inserted the 14gb fat32 usb labeled ESD-USB with
>   only one file on it
>   A5560.CAP size = 33,558,528 (32.0 mb)
> 
> - powered ON
> 
> - held the 'Del' key for over 3 minutes
> 
> - repeated with a freshly downloaded/unpacked/renamed file
> 
> All I got was the yellow (DRAM) LED.
> 
> So much for the *ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3* that works after a BIOS hose.
> 
> 

ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.zip

   ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.CAP  33,558,528
   BIOSRenamer.exe                          128,088

  [Picture]  I would try A5560.CAP, as I see it inside the BIOS file as a string

   https://i.postimg.cc/WzLNPHGR/Pro-Art-X870-E-Creator-Wifi-Asus-1504-filename.gif

Is the memory stick in A2 ?

Since the flash is CPU mediated, it's going to need working DRAM.

The DMI should update each time the BIOS sees that the
DRAM has been moved.

Power off at the back, wait 60 seconds, move the DRAM to another
position, try to get that DRAM LED to go off.

*******

You can try the FlashBack button, section 2.7 of the manual.
Maybe that starts earlier than the CrashFree "I see a USB stick in my port" stage :-)

    [Picture]

     https://i.postimg.cc/LXSjv2Xw/X870-E-CREATOR-Flash-Back-Button.gif

Since that seems to operate, with just the PSU going from OFF to ON at the
back (making only +5VSB available and NO FANS SPIN),
followed by pressing the button, that implies it's not going to
need working DRAM. That could be the same kind of microcontroller my
4930K system has.

Who knows, maybe that also "goes backwards", but let's not be greedy :-)

First we want to prove we are the boss, right :-)
PLEASE PLEASE LET ME BE THE BOSS. ITS MY TURN TO BE BOSS.

It's why I work on computers, for the humor they bring
to an otherwise dull day.

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#81702

On 7/14/25 1:36 AM, Paul wrote:
> On Sun, 7/13/2025 7:20 PM, bad sector wrote:
>> On 7/13/25 5:35 AM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>>> On 13/07/2025 07.58, Paul wrote:
>>
>>>> On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
>>>> is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
>>>> get back in control of the machine.
>>>
>>> This been true on my earlier Asus boards, my current one is an ASRock, which is a bit different compared with Asus branded. Both have the common on newer cards that you should be able to flash from usb with a clean board, described on page 57 in the manual for the ProArt x870e Creator (copy can be downloaded from asus homepage).
>>
>>
>> That's one of three sections I was looking at but it's unclear, I'll also include a link to a youtube video for the benefit of anyone googling for info.
>>
>> 3.3 ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3
>> =========================
>>
>> ..
>> 2. Rename the file using one of the following methods:
>>
>>    - Launch the BIOSRenamer.exe application to
>>      automatically rename the file.
>>
>>    - Manually rename the file to the BIOS CAP filename
>>      specified in the Specifications summary section.
>>
>>      (A5560.CAP in my manual)
>>
>>    - Manually rename the file to ASUS.CAP.
>>
>> so is it A5560.CAP or ASUS.CAP?
>> The download page says to use A5560.CAP
>>
>>
>> 3. Copy the renamed file to your USB storage device.
>>
>> 4. Turn on the system.
>>
>> 5. Insert the USB flash drive containing the BIOS file
>>     to a USB port.
>>
>> 6. The utility automatically checks the devices for the
>>     BIOS file. When found, the utility reads the BIOS
>>     file and enters ASUS EZ Flash 3 automatically.
>>
>> ... WHICH 'utility'?
>>
>>
>> 7. The system requires you to enter BIOS Setup to recover
>>     the BIOS setting. To ensure system compatibility and
>>     stability, we recommend that you press the <F5> hotkey
>>     to load default BIOS values.
>>
>> ... Presumably the BIOS is loaded (with some data) enough to be 'enterable' to be then reset to defaults. What is the data loaded if it is not 'defaults'?
>>
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6FbJwVg8Y
>>
>> includes a step missing in the manual which possibly explains that the 'utility' is in fact the UEFI BIOS setup:
>>
>> @ 1:34
>>    it shows a winblows BIOSRenamer doing the renaming
>>    but I can't make out what it ranames to
>>
>> @ 2:01
>>   - insert usb
>>   - power ON, *then*
>>   "Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS"
>>
>> This one to get the CrashFree BIOS 3 going
>>
>>
>> @ 2:26
>>   "the system will auto reboot"
>>
>> at which time you again 'Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS
>>
>> This one to advisedly revert BIOS to 'defaults'
>>
>>
>> So..
>>
>> - I disconnected everything down to a near naked box
>>
>> - 8gb non-ecc memory only and in slot 2 [A2]
>>
>> - cleared CMOS
>>
>> - plugged in an old cheap keyboard that even my old
>>    crosshair-IV can detect (as opposed to DURGOD-320
>>    which in 15 years it detected maybe 20 times)
>>
>> - inserted the 14gb fat32 usb labeled ESD-USB with
>>    only one file on it
>>    A5560.CAP size = 33,558,528 (32.0 mb)
>>
>> - powered ON
>>
>> - held the 'Del' key for over 3 minutes
>>
>> - repeated with a freshly downloaded/unpacked/renamed file
>>
>> All I got was the yellow (DRAM) LED.
>>
>> So much for the *ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3* that works after a BIOS hose.
>>
>>
> 
> ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.zip
> 
>     ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.CAP  33,558,528
>     BIOSRenamer.exe                          128,088
> 
>    [Picture]  I would try A5560.CAP, as I see it inside the BIOS file as a string
> 
>     https://i.postimg.cc/WzLNPHGR/Pro-Art-X870-E-Creator-Wifi-Asus-1504-filename.gif
> 
> Is the memory stick in A2 ?
> 
> Since the flash is CPU mediated, it's going to need working DRAM.
> 
> The DMI should update each time the BIOS sees that the
> DRAM has been moved.
> 
> Power off at the back, wait 60 seconds, move the DRAM to another
> position, try to get that DRAM LED to go off.
> 
> *******
> 
> You can try the FlashBack button, section 2.7 of the manual.
> Maybe that starts earlier than the CrashFree "I see a USB stick in my port" stage :-)
> 
>      [Picture]
> 
>       https://i.postimg.cc/LXSjv2Xw/X870-E-CREATOR-Flash-Back-Button.gif
> 
> Since that seems to operate, with just the PSU going from OFF to ON at the
> back (making only +5VSB available and NO FANS SPIN),
> followed by pressing the button, that implies it's not going to
> need working DRAM. That could be the same kind of microcontroller my
> 4930K system has.
> 
> Who knows, maybe that also "goes backwards", but let's not be greedy :-)
> 
> First we want to prove we are the boss, right :-)
> PLEASE PLEASE LET ME BE THE BOSS. ITS MY TURN TO BE BOSS.
> 
> It's why I work on computers, for the humor they bring
> to an otherwise dull day.
> 
>     Paul

I tried everything, the only NEW fit it's showing is that pressing and 
holding the power button does NOT shut the board down anymore, this was 
especially so when the 8gb card was in slot 1B or 2B. Looks like it's 
going in for one last RMA, then I'll decide if I keep it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#81703

On Tue, 7/15/2025 7:26 PM, bad sector wrote:
> On 7/14/25 1:36 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On Sun, 7/13/2025 7:20 PM, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 7/13/25 5:35 AM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>>>> On 13/07/2025 07.58, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
>>>>> is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
>>>>> get back in control of the machine.
>>>>
>>>> This been true on my earlier Asus boards, my current one is an ASRock, which is a bit different compared with Asus branded. Both have the common on newer cards that you should be able to flash from usb with a clean board, described on page 57 in the manual for the ProArt x870e Creator (copy can be downloaded from asus homepage).
>>>
>>>
>>> That's one of three sections I was looking at but it's unclear, I'll also include a link to a youtube video for the benefit of anyone googling for info.
>>>
>>> 3.3 ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3
>>> =========================
>>>
>>> ..
>>> 2. Rename the file using one of the following methods:
>>>
>>>    - Launch the BIOSRenamer.exe application to
>>>      automatically rename the file.
>>>
>>>    - Manually rename the file to the BIOS CAP filename
>>>      specified in the Specifications summary section.
>>>
>>>      (A5560.CAP in my manual)
>>>
>>>    - Manually rename the file to ASUS.CAP.
>>>
>>> so is it A5560.CAP or ASUS.CAP?
>>> The download page says to use A5560.CAP
>>>
>>>
>>> 3. Copy the renamed file to your USB storage device.
>>>
>>> 4. Turn on the system.
>>>
>>> 5. Insert the USB flash drive containing the BIOS file
>>>     to a USB port.
>>>
>>> 6. The utility automatically checks the devices for the
>>>     BIOS file. When found, the utility reads the BIOS
>>>     file and enters ASUS EZ Flash 3 automatically.
>>>
>>> ... WHICH 'utility'?
>>>
>>>
>>> 7. The system requires you to enter BIOS Setup to recover
>>>     the BIOS setting. To ensure system compatibility and
>>>     stability, we recommend that you press the <F5> hotkey
>>>     to load default BIOS values.
>>>
>>> ... Presumably the BIOS is loaded (with some data) enough to be 'enterable' to be then reset to defaults. What is the data loaded if it is not 'defaults'?
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6FbJwVg8Y
>>>
>>> includes a step missing in the manual which possibly explains that the 'utility' is in fact the UEFI BIOS setup:
>>>
>>> @ 1:34
>>>    it shows a winblows BIOSRenamer doing the renaming
>>>    but I can't make out what it ranames to
>>>
>>> @ 2:01
>>>   - insert usb
>>>   - power ON, *then*
>>>   "Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS"
>>>
>>> This one to get the CrashFree BIOS 3 going
>>>
>>>
>>> @ 2:26
>>>   "the system will auto reboot"
>>>
>>> at which time you again 'Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS
>>>
>>> This one to advisedly revert BIOS to 'defaults'
>>>
>>>
>>> So..
>>>
>>> - I disconnected everything down to a near naked box
>>>
>>> - 8gb non-ecc memory only and in slot 2 [A2]
>>>
>>> - cleared CMOS
>>>
>>> - plugged in an old cheap keyboard that even my old
>>>    crosshair-IV can detect (as opposed to DURGOD-320
>>>    which in 15 years it detected maybe 20 times)
>>>
>>> - inserted the 14gb fat32 usb labeled ESD-USB with
>>>    only one file on it
>>>    A5560.CAP size = 33,558,528 (32.0 mb)
>>>
>>> - powered ON
>>>
>>> - held the 'Del' key for over 3 minutes
>>>
>>> - repeated with a freshly downloaded/unpacked/renamed file
>>>
>>> All I got was the yellow (DRAM) LED.
>>>
>>> So much for the *ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3* that works after a BIOS hose.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.zip
>>
>>     ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.CAP  33,558,528
>>     BIOSRenamer.exe                          128,088
>>
>>    [Picture]  I would try A5560.CAP, as I see it inside the BIOS file as a string
>>
>>     https://i.postimg.cc/WzLNPHGR/Pro-Art-X870-E-Creator-Wifi-Asus-1504-filename.gif
>>
>> Is the memory stick in A2 ?
>>
>> Since the flash is CPU mediated, it's going to need working DRAM.
>>
>> The DMI should update each time the BIOS sees that the
>> DRAM has been moved.
>>
>> Power off at the back, wait 60 seconds, move the DRAM to another
>> position, try to get that DRAM LED to go off.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> You can try the FlashBack button, section 2.7 of the manual.
>> Maybe that starts earlier than the CrashFree "I see a USB stick in my port" stage :-)
>>
>>      [Picture]
>>
>>       https://i.postimg.cc/LXSjv2Xw/X870-E-CREATOR-Flash-Back-Button.gif
>>
>> Since that seems to operate, with just the PSU going from OFF to ON at the
>> back (making only +5VSB available and NO FANS SPIN),
>> followed by pressing the button, that implies it's not going to
>> need working DRAM. That could be the same kind of microcontroller my
>> 4930K system has.
>>
>> Who knows, maybe that also "goes backwards", but let's not be greedy :-)
>>
>> First we want to prove we are the boss, right :-)
>> PLEASE PLEASE LET ME BE THE BOSS. ITS MY TURN TO BE BOSS.
>>
>> It's why I work on computers, for the humor they bring
>> to an otherwise dull day.
>>
>>     Paul
> 
> I tried everything, the only NEW fit it's showing is that pressing and holding the power button does NOT shut the board down anymore, this was especially so when the 8gb card was in slot 1B or 2B. Looks like it's going in for one last RMA, then I'll decide if I keep it.

You're using the power button on the front, because you
think the flash is programmed now ?

As I understand it, the FlashBack is not supposed to need pressing
the power button on the front. Pushing the FlashBack button, while
the system has +5VSB only (switched on at the back), should be enough
for the microcontroller to try to flash in the USB stick content,
together with the flashing of some LED indicating it is actively
programming the thing.

Starting the board, while it's not ready to be started, I couldn't
tell you what to expect for behaviors.

*******

To analyze the ability to control the power supply, we look at
what is working in the sequence.

When you turn on at the back, the fans don't spin. The +5VSB is running
at that point. That's the supervisor voltage.

When you push the button on the front (momentary contact), the
onboard logic latches that and makes a "steady ON" out of it. At that point,
the front button does not matter, in terms of keeping the fans spinning
and the system running.

Let's say an OS boots. In the process of handoff, the BIOS says "we need
to engage the four second filter now, on the front panel button, to
prevent inadvertent brushing against the switch". If you press the
front button, the button must be held down for the four second interval
(because the OS or something, set the hardware to start using the logic filter).

In an OS, you can "bind" the front button input to a response. You can
make the system "Sleep" by pushing the front button, or "Hibernate". But
most people just leave the ACPI interface set to "When I press the button,
shut off". So after the four seconds, the hardware logic shuts off.
That should be the default as far as I know.

If the pad driver that asserts "PS_ON#" on the 24 pin was able
to switch the system ON, it should be able to switch the system OFF
by "letting go" of the pin. The 8mA open collector signal, stops
pulling down on PS_ON# and the pullup resistor on the PSU end,
pulls the signal to the deasserted state (the five volt level)
and the fans go off.

The +5VSB is still running at shutdown, but the main rails are
off and the fans should have stopped (because the fans depend on
the main rail +12V for power).

Off for your RMA I guess. I can't see how it would fail that way. It
would have needed a logic clock to run the state machine (something
it can use to time a 4 second event in hardware). The RTC (Real Time Clock)
has a 1PPS output (pulse per second) and counting four of those ticks
should suffice as a logic conditioner for the momentary power button
in the front of the PC.

   Paul

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#81711

On 7/16/25 4:44 AM, Paul wrote:
> On Tue, 7/15/2025 7:26 PM, bad sector wrote:
>> On 7/14/25 1:36 AM, Paul wrote:
>>> On Sun, 7/13/2025 7:20 PM, bad sector wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/25 5:35 AM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>>>>> On 13/07/2025 07.58, Paul wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On some systems, switching off the power three times, when the machine
>>>>>> is in trouble, initiates "load setup defaults" so you (in theory) can
>>>>>> get back in control of the machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> This been true on my earlier Asus boards, my current one is an ASRock, which is a bit different compared with Asus branded. Both have the common on newer cards that you should be able to flash from usb with a clean board, described on page 57 in the manual for the ProArt x870e Creator (copy can be downloaded from asus homepage).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's one of three sections I was looking at but it's unclear, I'll also include a link to a youtube video for the benefit of anyone googling for info.
>>>>
>>>> 3.3 ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3
>>>> =========================
>>>>
>>>> ..
>>>> 2. Rename the file using one of the following methods:
>>>>
>>>>     - Launch the BIOSRenamer.exe application to
>>>>       automatically rename the file.
>>>>
>>>>     - Manually rename the file to the BIOS CAP filename
>>>>       specified in the Specifications summary section.
>>>>
>>>>       (A5560.CAP in my manual)
>>>>
>>>>     - Manually rename the file to ASUS.CAP.
>>>>
>>>> so is it A5560.CAP or ASUS.CAP?
>>>> The download page says to use A5560.CAP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3. Copy the renamed file to your USB storage device.
>>>>
>>>> 4. Turn on the system.
>>>>
>>>> 5. Insert the USB flash drive containing the BIOS file
>>>>      to a USB port.
>>>>
>>>> 6. The utility automatically checks the devices for the
>>>>      BIOS file. When found, the utility reads the BIOS
>>>>      file and enters ASUS EZ Flash 3 automatically.
>>>>
>>>> ... WHICH 'utility'?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 7. The system requires you to enter BIOS Setup to recover
>>>>      the BIOS setting. To ensure system compatibility and
>>>>      stability, we recommend that you press the <F5> hotkey
>>>>      to load default BIOS values.
>>>>
>>>> ... Presumably the BIOS is loaded (with some data) enough to be 'enterable' to be then reset to defaults. What is the data loaded if it is not 'defaults'?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6FbJwVg8Y
>>>>
>>>> includes a step missing in the manual which possibly explains that the 'utility' is in fact the UEFI BIOS setup:
>>>>
>>>> @ 1:34
>>>>     it shows a winblows BIOSRenamer doing the renaming
>>>>     but I can't make out what it ranames to
>>>>
>>>> @ 2:01
>>>>    - insert usb
>>>>    - power ON, *then*
>>>>    "Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS"
>>>>
>>>> This one to get the CrashFree BIOS 3 going
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @ 2:26
>>>>    "the system will auto reboot"
>>>>
>>>> at which time you again 'Press the Del or F2 key to enter UEFI BIOS
>>>>
>>>> This one to advisedly revert BIOS to 'defaults'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So..
>>>>
>>>> - I disconnected everything down to a near naked box
>>>>
>>>> - 8gb non-ecc memory only and in slot 2 [A2]
>>>>
>>>> - cleared CMOS
>>>>
>>>> - plugged in an old cheap keyboard that even my old
>>>>     crosshair-IV can detect (as opposed to DURGOD-320
>>>>     which in 15 years it detected maybe 20 times)
>>>>
>>>> - inserted the 14gb fat32 usb labeled ESD-USB with
>>>>     only one file on it
>>>>     A5560.CAP size = 33,558,528 (32.0 mb)
>>>>
>>>> - powered ON
>>>>
>>>> - held the 'Del' key for over 3 minutes
>>>>
>>>> - repeated with a freshly downloaded/unpacked/renamed file
>>>>
>>>> All I got was the yellow (DRAM) LED.
>>>>
>>>> So much for the *ASUS CrashFree BIOS 3* that works after a BIOS hose.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.zip
>>>
>>>      ProArt-X870E-CREATOR-WIFI-ASUS-1504.CAP  33,558,528
>>>      BIOSRenamer.exe                          128,088
>>>
>>>     [Picture]  I would try A5560.CAP, as I see it inside the BIOS file as a string
>>>
>>>      https://i.postimg.cc/WzLNPHGR/Pro-Art-X870-E-Creator-Wifi-Asus-1504-filename.gif
>>>
>>> Is the memory stick in A2 ?
>>>
>>> Since the flash is CPU mediated, it's going to need working DRAM.
>>>
>>> The DMI should update each time the BIOS sees that the
>>> DRAM has been moved.
>>>
>>> Power off at the back, wait 60 seconds, move the DRAM to another
>>> position, try to get that DRAM LED to go off.
>>>
>>> *******
>>>
>>> You can try the FlashBack button, section 2.7 of the manual.
>>> Maybe that starts earlier than the CrashFree "I see a USB stick in my port" stage :-)
>>>
>>>       [Picture]
>>>
>>>        https://i.postimg.cc/LXSjv2Xw/X870-E-CREATOR-Flash-Back-Button.gif
>>>
>>> Since that seems to operate, with just the PSU going from OFF to ON at the
>>> back (making only +5VSB available and NO FANS SPIN),
>>> followed by pressing the button, that implies it's not going to
>>> need working DRAM. That could be the same kind of microcontroller my
>>> 4930K system has.
>>>
>>> Who knows, maybe that also "goes backwards", but let's not be greedy :-)
>>>
>>> First we want to prove we are the boss, right :-)
>>> PLEASE PLEASE LET ME BE THE BOSS. ITS MY TURN TO BE BOSS.
>>>
>>> It's why I work on computers, for the humor they bring
>>> to an otherwise dull day.
>>>
>>>      Paul
>>
>> I tried everything, the only NEW fit it's showing is that pressing and holding the power button does NOT shut the board down anymore, this was especially so when the 8gb card was in slot 1B or 2B. Looks like it's going in for one last RMA, then I'll decide if I keep it.
> 
> You're using the power button on the front, because you
> think the flash is programmed now ?

Not because I think it's programmed but because Ive alwayused the front 
power button exlusively considering it to be THE power button. I'd need 
to read "press the motherboard power-buton" to do otherwise.

> As I understand it, the FlashBack is not supposed to need pressing
> the power button on the front. Pushing the FlashBack button, while
> the system has +5VSB only (switched on at the back), should be enough
> for the microcontroller to try to flash in the USB stick content,
> together with the flashing of some LED indicating it is actively
> programming the thing.
> 
> Starting the board, while it's not ready to be started, I couldn't
> tell you what to expect for behaviors.
> 
> *******
> 
> To analyze the ability to control the power supply, we look at
> what is working in the sequence.
> 
> When you turn on at the back, the fans don't spin. The +5VSB is running
> at that point. That's the supervisor voltage.
> 
> When you push the button on the front (momentary contact), the
> onboard logic latches that and makes a "steady ON" out of it. At that point,
> the front button does not matter, in terms of keeping the fans spinning
> and the system running.
> 
> Let's say an OS boots. In the process of handoff, the BIOS says "we need
> to engage the four second filter now, on the front panel button, to
> prevent inadvertent brushing against the switch". If you press the
> front button, the button must be held down for the four second interval
> (because the OS or something, set the hardware to start using the logic filter).
> 
> In an OS, you can "bind" the front button input to a response. You can
> make the system "Sleep" by pushing the front button, or "Hibernate". But
> most people just leave the ACPI interface set to "When I press the button,
> shut off". So after the four seconds, the hardware logic shuts off.
> That should be the default as far as I know.
> 
> If the pad driver that asserts "PS_ON#" on the 24 pin was able
> to switch the system ON, it should be able to switch the system OFF
> by "letting go" of the pin. The 8mA open collector signal, stops
> pulling down on PS_ON# and the pullup resistor on the PSU end,
> pulls the signal to the deasserted state (the five volt level)
> and the fans go off.
> 
> The +5VSB is still running at shutdown, but the main rails are
> off and the fans should have stopped (because the fans depend on
> the main rail +12V for power).
> 
> Off for your RMA I guess. I can't see how it would fail that way. It
> would have needed a logic clock to run the state machine (something
> it can use to time a 4 second event in hardware). The RTC (Real Time Clock)
> has a 1PPS output (pulse per second) and counting four of those ticks
> should suffice as a logic conditioner for the momentary power button
> in the front of the PC.

You're never wrong so 'ideally' I should put the board together again 
and try the motherboard power-button but all the CPU installation and 
removal risks bending the pins so I won't. The board is back in its box 
and goes RMA as soon as I get the shipping label. I asked them to foot 
the shipping both ways but they'll probably decline, that means that by 
the time it leaves here it will already have cost me retail price + $150 
or so + many months of my life and I STILL haven't seen the NEW and 
faultless product that I had *PAID* for.

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#81713

On Wed, 7/16/2025 9:34 AM, bad sector wrote:
> On 7/16/25 4:44 AM, Paul wrote:

>> Off for your RMA I guess.
> 
> You're never wrong so 'ideally' I should put the board together again and try the motherboard power-button but all the CPU installation and removal risks bending the pins so I won't. The board is back in its box and goes RMA as soon as I get the shipping label. I asked them to foot the shipping both ways but they'll probably decline, that means that by the time it leaves here it will already have cost me retail price + $150 or so + many months of my life and I STILL haven't seen the NEW and faultless product that I had *PAID* for.
> 

My experience here wasn't flawless either.

My Zen3 build "started in blackness and watching little LEDs",
so I've been through the rough parts of this exercise. And making
mistakes, on "what that LED actually means".

Then, months after the build is finished, I was getting
the weird OS shutdowns (not seen on Linux), which cost me
a small fortune to fault-isolate. The knee jerk reaction,
would have been to send my 5000 series processor for an RMA,
but experience tells me it's not the processor as
they're very reliable as parts go.

So I ended up getting an extra motherboard, testing, finding
the CPU was fine. And then I started fuzzing the config
(shut off RealTek NIC, shut off iGPU, install Nvidia card,
install Intel NIC, finally it settled down). That does not mean
it is "fixed", either. it means I'm allowed to use it.

I think the experience is intended to "build character",
if you know what I mean.

   Paul

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#81725

On 7/16/25 11:11 AM, Paul wrote:
> On Wed, 7/16/2025 9:34 AM, bad sector wrote:
>> On 7/16/25 4:44 AM, Paul wrote:
> 
>>> Off for your RMA I guess.
>>
>> You're never wrong so 'ideally' I should put the board together again and try the motherboard power-button but all the CPU installation and removal risks bending the pins so I won't. The board is back in its box and goes RMA as soon as I get the shipping label. I asked them to foot the shipping both ways but they'll probably decline, that means that by the time it leaves here it will already have cost me retail price + $150 or so + many months of my life and I STILL haven't seen the NEW and faultless product that I had *PAID* for.
>>
> 
> My experience here wasn't flawless either.
> 
> My Zen3 build "started in blackness and watching little LEDs",
> so I've been through the rough parts of this exercise. And making
> mistakes, on "what that LED actually means".
> 
> Then, months after the build is finished, I was getting
> the weird OS shutdowns (not seen on Linux), which cost me
> a small fortune to fault-isolate. The knee jerk reaction,
> would have been to send my 5000 series processor for an RMA,
> but experience tells me it's not the processor as
> they're very reliable as parts go.
> 
> So I ended up getting an extra motherboard, testing, finding
> the CPU was fine. And then I started fuzzing the config
> (shut off RealTek NIC, shut off iGPU, install Nvidia card,
> install Intel NIC, finally it settled down). That does not mean
> it is "fixed", either. it means I'm allowed to use it.
> 
> I think the experience is intended to "build character",
> if you know what I mean.
> 
>     Paul

You're a jewel Paul, but I'll postulate that the character building 
effort should target a supply chain that increasingly is dumping 
untested more bleeding than edge products on the DIY market trying to 
get its members to do their testing and saving them millions before they 
start volume sales at deep discounts to a different market, one that 
forgives nothing and goes to court on every opportunity. Take the 
example if BIOS, there should hardly ever be a need for upgrades but 
instead of this we're getting one almost monthly. Mea-Kurva dammit, 
natural selection is doing its thing.

My previous Crosshair-IV board 15 years ago worked all-around out of the 
box with a total of maybe 5 BIOS revisions. The only snag was that it 
never detected my Durgod keyboard. Had I known the hell facing me with 
this proart flash-in-the-pan (with my son's sudden death in the middle 
of the episode) I would never have touched it, not even for free!

Latest is: it 'might' be replaced by a new one.

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#81831 — new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief

On 7/16/25 5:19 PM, bad sector wrote:
> On 7/16/25 11:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On Wed, 7/16/2025 9:34 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 7/16/25 4:44 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>>> Off for your RMA I guess.
>>>
>>> You're never wrong so 'ideally' I should put the board together again 
>>> and try the motherboard power-button but all the CPU installation and 
>>> removal risks bending the pins so I won't. The board is back in its 
>>> box and goes RMA as soon as I get the shipping label. I asked them to 
>>> foot the shipping both ways but they'll probably decline, that means 
>>> that by the time it leaves here it will already have cost me retail 
>>> price + $150 or so + many months of my life and I STILL haven't seen 
>>> the NEW and faultless product that I had *PAID* for.
>>>
>>
>> My experience here wasn't flawless either.
>>
>> My Zen3 build "started in blackness and watching little LEDs",
>> so I've been through the rough parts of this exercise. And making
>> mistakes, on "what that LED actually means".
>>
>> Then, months after the build is finished, I was getting
>> the weird OS shutdowns (not seen on Linux), which cost me
>> a small fortune to fault-isolate. The knee jerk reaction,
>> would have been to send my 5000 series processor for an RMA,
>> but experience tells me it's not the processor as
>> they're very reliable as parts go.
>>
>> So I ended up getting an extra motherboard, testing, finding
>> the CPU was fine. And then I started fuzzing the config
>> (shut off RealTek NIC, shut off iGPU, install Nvidia card,
>> install Intel NIC, finally it settled down). That does not mean
>> it is "fixed", either. it means I'm allowed to use it.
>>
>> I think the experience is intended to "build character",
>> if you know what I mean.
>>
>>     Paul
> 
> You're a jewel Paul, but I'll postulate that the character building 
> effort should target a supply chain that increasingly is dumping 
> untested more bleeding than edge products on the DIY market trying to 
> get its members to do their testing and saving them millions before they 
> start volume sales at deep discounts to a different market, one that 
> forgives nothing and goes to court on every opportunity. Take the 
> example if BIOS, there should hardly ever be a need for upgrades but 
> instead of this we're getting one almost monthly. Mea-Kurva dammit, 
> natural selection is doing its thing.
> 
> My previous Crosshair-IV board 15 years ago worked all-around out of the 
> box with a total of maybe 5 BIOS revisions. The only snag was that it 
> never detected my Durgod keyboard. Had I known the hell facing me with 
> this proart flash-in-the-pan (with my son's sudden death in the middle 
> of the episode) I would never have touched it, not even for free!
> 
> Latest is: it 'might' be replaced by a new one.

Well it went back on RMA #2 and this time they paid the postage. I 
received the report saying 'board does not post, replaced with new one'. 
Put it together for the Nth time, again it wouldn't go into BIOS. Tried 
the old 'test' ddr5, back and forth for hours absolutely 'fuming'. 
Finally got into it and tried to upgrade but it failed (actually didn't 
even start, and as said many times before the manual and the BIOS 
dialogs are a total disgrace). After another eternity got the 
'Crash-Free' BIOS upgrade procedure started and managed to flash in the 
latest #1605. On the 1st reboot with this BIOS all previous boot issues 
GONE, two 48gb ECC cards booting in a second, no problems at all. WHY 
wasn't this the case when I got my first board in December last year?????

But then only windows booted, still can't get into BIOS no matter how 
much I press Del or F2 and the previuous workaround of having nothing 
bootable (which forced it into BIOS before) is gone too and all I get is 
a notice to plug in something bootable. With the disk 'in' windows boots 
again. Finally I booted the Tumbleweed install DVD and forced a re-grub 
by just changing the timeout. Back in business.

Still can't get into BIOS, just like the old Crosshair-IV board. I'm 
sorry to say these people obviously have their customers do the BIOS 
development after a premature product release and they have microcancer 
so far up their bazooka they can't tell if it's night or daylight.

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#81832 — Re: new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief

On Thu, 7/31/2025 10:48 PM, bad sector wrote:
> On 7/16/25 5:19 PM, bad sector wrote:
>> Latest is: it 'might' be replaced by a new one.
> 
> Well it went back on RMA #2 and this time they paid the postage. I received the report saying 'board does not post, replaced with new one'. Put it together for the Nth time, again it wouldn't go into BIOS. Tried the old 'test' ddr5, back and forth for hours absolutely 'fuming'. Finally got into it and tried to upgrade but it failed (actually didn't even start, and as said many times before the manual and the BIOS dialogs are a total disgrace). After another eternity got the 'Crash-Free' BIOS upgrade procedure started and managed to flash in the latest #1605. On the 1st reboot with this BIOS all previous boot issues GONE, two 48gb ECC cards booting in a second, no problems at all. WHY wasn't this the case when I got my first board in December last year?????
> 
> But then only windows booted, still can't get into BIOS no matter how much I press Del or F2 and the previuous workaround of having nothing bootable (which forced it into BIOS before) is gone too and all I get is a notice to plug in something bootable. With the disk 'in' windows boots again. Finally I booted the Tumbleweed install DVD and forced a re-grub by just changing the timeout. Back in business.
> 
> Still can't get into BIOS, just like the old Crosshair-IV board. I'm sorry to say these people obviously have their customers do the BIOS development after a premature product release and they have microcancer so far up their bazooka they can't tell if it's night or daylight.
> 

"Crazy cool, man". You survived.

It sounds like they really know how to write a BIOS, for sure.

My guess is, the BIOS problems is one of keyboards. Take the machine
across the way for example. Two keyboards. You use the keyboard
that works for the occasion :-)

The guy that "owns a Dell", he has a Microsoft keyboard that he
can't get into the BIOS with either. He has a second keyboard
attached, for that reason as well.

So the idea would be:

1) Your primary keyboard should be the one you do all your typing on.
2) The auxiliary keyboard is for things like BIOS-key-pressing. The
   keyboard could be some cheap piece-of-crap, whatever passes for
   a keyboard this week at the computer store.

For testing purposes, I've had two keyboards and three mice on the
Test Machine, and it took the OSes over there, quite a few years
before that test case passed. Around 2015, there was "70% detect rate",
and random ones would work or not work. I was never locked out of
the PC, but it was hit and miss on detection. There was a USB mouse,
a PS/2 mouse, and a serial (RS232) mouse.

I'm pretty well out of spare keyboards. I have a beige plastic USB Apple keyboard
as a "spare" (glare off keycaps is awful). And an ancient ADB bus Apple keyboard
and a USB to ADB adapter (a lucky acquisition for sure), and can run that keyboard
on a PC. I'm all out of spare PC-keyboards. I would "stock up", but the selection
of keyboards at the store is "not so good".

But it does sound like you've learned a lot (about RMAs mainly :-) )
and you might have a working computer now. Might. And with ECC, too.
That's something I never got, in my efforts, was a working ECC.
Victory! The staff at Intel are envious, that they've managed to
get another customer set up with ECC... by having AMD as a competitor.

   Paul

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#81836 — Re: new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief

bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> writes:

> Still can't get into BIOS, just like the old Crosshair-IV board. I'm
> sorry to say these people obviously have their customers do the BIOS
> development after a premature product release and they have
> microcancer so far up their bazooka they can't tell if it's night or
> daylight.

You can usually put an entry for entering BIOS in the Grub menu, these
days. Like this, for example:

menuentry 'UEFI Firmware Settings' $menuentry_id_option 'uefi-firmware' {
        fwsetup
}

Of course, it needs EFI grub, BIOS grub isn't going to know about that.

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#81837 — Re: new board ..Re: Asus x870e: more grief

On 8/2/25 7:59 AM, Anssi Saari wrote:
> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> writes:
> 
>> Still can't get into BIOS, just like the old Crosshair-IV board. I'm
>> sorry to say these people obviously have their customers do the BIOS
>> development after a premature product release and they have
>> microcancer so far up their bazooka they can't tell if it's night or
>> daylight.
> 
> You can usually put an entry for entering BIOS in the Grub menu, these
> days. Like this, for example:
> 
> menuentry 'UEFI Firmware Settings' $menuentry_id_option 'uefi-firmware' {
>          fwsetup
> }
> 
> Of course, it needs EFI grub, BIOS grub isn't going to know about that.


Yes, it's what's saving my butt but I'll put it in my notes anyway for a 
rainy day, Tumbleweed does it by default. If it were not for that I 
would have been up the proverbial creek. The board just kept booting 
windows, until I got fed up with the scam and booted a TW installer into 
upgrade mode. There all you need do is change the timeout (<c> Carlos) 
to get grub code rewritten to disk with no other upset.

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