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Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in"

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  Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Big Bad Bob <BigBadBob-at-mrp3-dot-com@testing.local> - 2016-01-18 08:11 -0800
    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-18 10:34 -0600
      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-18 20:21 -0800
        Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-19 00:42 -0600
          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-18 23:04 -0800
            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-19 01:13 -0600
              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-19 19:49 -0800
    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-18 17:42 +0100
      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Big Bad Bob <BigBadBob-at-mrp3-dot-com@testing.local> - 2016-01-18 16:45 -0800
        Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:03 -0500
          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-18 22:35 -0800
            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-18 22:36 -0800
          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" mechanic <mechanic@example.net> - 2016-01-19 12:08 +0000
            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-19 08:46 -0600
              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-19 20:05 -0800
                Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-20 07:40 -0600
                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-20 08:43 -0800
                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> - 2016-01-20 11:57 -0500
    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "E. Robinson" <E.Robinson@merck.com> - 2016-01-20 10:57 +0000
      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 10:47 -0500
        Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "E. Robinson" <E.Robinson@merck.com> - 2016-01-20 19:49 +0000
          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-20 14:31 -0600
            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "E. Robinson" <E.Robinson@merck.com> - 2016-01-21 02:58 +0000
          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 16:07 -0500
            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "E. Robinson" <E.Robinson@merck.com> - 2016-01-21 03:00 +0000
              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2016-01-21 16:28 +0100
            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "E. Robinson" <E.Robinson@merck.com> - 2016-01-21 03:01 +0000
              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 23:45 -0500
                Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-01-20 21:10 -0800
                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 00:52 -0500
                    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-20 23:07 -0800
                      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 09:05 -0500
                      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-01-21 06:16 -0800
                    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-01-21 06:08 -0800
                      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-21 09:15 -0600
                        Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 10:48 -0500
                          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-21 08:01 -0800
                            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 12:56 -0500
                              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-21 12:35 -0600
                            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-21 12:27 -0600
                              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-21 12:38 -0600
                                Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-22 00:16 -0800
                                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-22 14:40 -0600
                              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> - 2016-01-21 23:03 -0500
                                Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2016-01-22 00:38 -0800
                                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> - 2016-01-22 09:18 -0500
                                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> - 2016-01-22 09:19 -0500
                                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> - 2016-01-22 09:21 -0500
                                    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-22 19:57 +0100
                              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-22 00:11 -0800
                                Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-25 10:52 -0600
                                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-25 17:05 -0600
                                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-27 21:42 -0800
                                    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-28 08:24 -0600
                                      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> - 2016-01-28 10:24 -0500
                                        Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-28 11:07 -0600
                                      Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-28 20:13 -0800
                                        Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-28 23:17 -0600
                                          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-29 10:46 -0500
                                            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-29 10:24 -0600
                          Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-01-21 08:28 -0800
                            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-21 18:36 +0100
                              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-01-21 10:48 -0800
                            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2016-01-21 12:32 -0600
                            Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-22 00:33 -0800
                              Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-01-22 02:16 -0800
                                Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" stepore <linshine@here.now> - 2016-01-22 23:25 -0800
                Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "E. Robinson" <E.Robinson@merck.com> - 2016-01-21 07:21 +0000
                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2016-01-21 08:32 +0100
                    Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" Harold Stevens <wookie@cindy.localdomain> - 2016-01-21 06:02 -0600
                  Re: Ubu makes 'adware' search thing "opt in" "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 09:08 -0500

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#186411

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:43 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

> "fail" for some, "different" for others.

Understood.
Thank God for KDE, which I never would have tried had Unity not been
so very much not to my liking.

> Yes. And the reason is CONTINUITY. When the window is maximized the 
> controls on the right would interfere with the indicators. To have to 
> controls bounce from right to left and left to right is bad 
> design...bouncing controls hither and yon smacks of another OS's 
> experiment with UI change.

Wait a minute! I don't think we're talking the same thing.

In KDE, you can set the window controls in a corner, and, obviously, the 
natural corner is top right because many of us dual boot to Windows and
you don't normally change windows window controls.

So, top-right is natural, and it's extremely un-natural anywhere else, 
especially, as I said, for dual booters. 

In Unity at that time, you could (ostensibly) set the window controls 
to the top right, and that worked for all windows except a fully sized
window. For a fully-sized window, the controls bounced to the top left.

WTF? 
Window controls bounce from right to left depending only on the size 
of the window?

Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

KDE has no problem with ALL the windows having the controls where they
belong; neither does any other desktop environment. Just Unity.

It pretty much proves that nobody in the Unity development team tested
it or cared to run the absolute simplest of tests of a window environment.

>> Does the new Unity still fail to distinguish between a Firefox icon
>> and a (very different) Tor Browser Bundle Firefox icon?
> 
> Might. But that more has to to do with the packaging of Tor. But of 
> course you could always make a custom shortcut, .desktop file.

If you mistake Firefox for Tor, your privacy can be lost in an instant.
It's really serious to make that mistake for some people (whistleblowers
and the like).

Now, I realize both are a "firefox" variant, but they're totally different
installations and binary executables. 

There's no reason that they should EVER be using the same starting icon
in the window manager by default!

It's a dumb thing for ANY desktop environment to do to confuse two
different things - and - well - again - it shows either careless or
uncaring programming - or - no testing whatsoever.

Pick one.

> Yes, because it is contrary to the design. It is like saying does that 
> boat still lack wheels? Both UI paradigms get you from point A to point 
> B but just with a different approach to get there. If you MUST have 
> menus then Unity is not your desktop. Luckily you are not stuck with it, 
> you have a choice.

I could live without cascaded menus, but the other annoyances are too
great to live with, considering KDE works just fine.

There were PLENTY of other problems with Unity; those are just the ones
I remember.

>> Does the user still need to constantly click numerous times on the
>> icons just to find the "right" opened window when multiple windows
>> of the same application are open at the same time?
> 
> Numerous times? No. You click ONCE and the multiple windows EXPOSÉ 
> layout. Pick the one you want.

Bah. Humbug. For a desktop environment to make it obtuse what windows
you are bringing up is a really (really) bad way of doing business.

It should be *obvious* BEFORE I click, what window I'm bringing up.
Sheeesh. Basic Window Management 101.

I do UNDERSTAND what you were telling me though, which is that Unity 
works fine for others. I was just wondering if *those* annoyances
were fixed. 

Thanks for your patience!

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#186412

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 19:49:37 -0000 (UTC)
"E. Robinson" <E.Robinson@merck.com> wrote:

> In KDE, you can set the window controls in a corner, and, obviously,
> the natural corner is top right because many of us dual boot to
> Windows and you don't normally change windows window controls.
> 
> So, top-right is natural, and it's extremely un-natural anywhere
> else, especially, as I said, for dual booters. 

That's a very parochial viewpoint.  Mac users are used to the left hand
side and many of them dual boot with Linux.  Don't take you own
experiences to be the only ones.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
Registered GNU/Linux user # 126326
Registered Ubuntu User (deprecated) # 2136

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#186417

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:31:59 -0600, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

> That's a very parochial viewpoint.  Mac users are used to the left hand
> side and many of them dual boot with Linux.  Don't take you own
> experiences to be the only ones.

I agree with you on that correction.

Mac users might naturally want the window controls at top left, which
Unity didn't seem to have a problem with.

Windows users might naturally want the window controls at top right, which
Unity wasn't able to do for all windows.

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#186413

E. Robinson wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:43 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>
>> "fail" for some, "different" for others.
>
> Understood.
> Thank God for KDE, which I never would have tried had Unity not been
> so very much not to my liking.
>
>> Yes. And the reason is CONTINUITY. When the window is maximized the
>> controls on the right would interfere with the indicators. To have to
>> controls bounce from right to left and left to right is bad
>> design...bouncing controls hither and yon smacks of another OS's
>> experiment with UI change.
>
> Wait a minute! I don't think we're talking the same thing.

Yes we are.

>
> In KDE, you can set the window controls in a corner, and, obviously, the
> natural corner is top right because many of us dual boot to Windows and
> you don't normally change windows window controls.

No. I told you why. Right-hand controls on a maximized window would 
interfere with the indicators. Remember the goal of Unity is a unified 
UI from desktop monitor to laptop to tablet to smartphone.

>
> So, top-right is natural, and it's extremely un-natural anywhere else,
> especially, as I said, for dual booters.

Tell that to a Mac-head.

>
> In Unity at that time, you could (ostensibly) set the window controls
> to the top right, and that worked for all windows except a fully sized
> window. For a fully-sized window, the controls bounced to the top left.
>
> WTF?
> Window controls bounce from right to left depending only on the size
> of the window?

Obviously you have not used 8.

>
> Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Only if you ignore what I said.

>
> KDE has no problem with ALL the windows having the controls where they
> belong; neither does any other desktop environment. Just Unity.

Well there is your answer, use KDE! Nobody is putting a gun to your head.

-- 
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

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#186418

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:07:54 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

> No. I told you why. Right-hand controls on a maximized window would 
> interfere with the indicators. Remember the goal of Unity is a unified 
> UI from desktop monitor to laptop to tablet to smartphone.

Fair enough ... 

But ... then the argument that the "indicators" are badly placed is
apropos, if the "indicator" placement was already previously taken 
by the most common position on the planet for the window controls!

That's just bad design. Period.

What you're saying makes sense, but it's *still* a bad design. 

It's not like top-right window controls are an extreme oddity that
nobody ever thought might have existed.

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#186444

Am 2016-01-21 um 04:00 schrieb E. Robinson:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:07:54 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> 
>> No. I told you why. Right-hand controls on a maximized window would 
>> interfere with the indicators. Remember the goal of Unity is a unified 
>> UI from desktop monitor to laptop to tablet to smartphone.
> 
> Fair enough ... 
> 
> But ... then the argument that the "indicators" are badly placed is
> apropos, if the "indicator" placement was already previously taken 
> by the most common position on the planet for the window controls!
> 
> That's just bad design. Period.
> 
> What you're saying makes sense, but it's *still* a bad design. 
> 
> It's not like top-right window controls are an extreme oddity that
> nobody ever thought might have existed.


Same goes for controls on the top-left.

Amiga's Workbench, Windows 3.x, Atari's GEM, NextStep, Risc OS had
controls in both corners.

Nowadays mainstream DEs have them top-left (OSX) or top-right (Windows).

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#186419

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:07:54 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

>> Window controls bounce from right to left depending only on the size
>> of the window?
> 
> Obviously you have not used 8.

I had that Windows 8 abomination on my kid's non-touch-screen laptop 
when I bought it for her for her college freshman year. 

It was horrid.

Last summer, as you can imagine, we switched it to Windows 10.
It was *still* horrid - just less so.

Me? 

I'm happy with Ubuntu & KDE (I'm sure Gnome would have done as well).

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#186428

E. Robinson wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:07:54 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>
>>> Window controls bounce from right to left depending only on the size
>>> of the window?
>>
>> Obviously you have not used 8.
>
> I had that Windows 8 abomination on my kid's non-touch-screen laptop
> when I bought it for her for her college freshman year.
>
> It was horrid.

The ultimate Mystery-Meat Navigation UI.

>
> Last summer, as you can imagine, we switched it to Windows 10.
> It was *still* horrid - just less so.
>
> Me?
>
> I'm happy with Ubuntu & KDE (I'm sure Gnome would have done as well).
>

That is my point. You have options. You can even get it reconfigured 
with Kubuntu. For me, especially on a laptop I have found that I really 
like Unity. Cannot wait until Unity 8 and a way to replace Android with 
Ubuntu on my phone.

-- 
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

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#186430

On 2016-01-21, Jonathan N. Little <lws4art@gmail.com> wrote:
> That is my point. You have options. You can even get it reconfigured 
> with Kubuntu. For me, especially on a laptop I have found that I really 
> like Unity. Cannot wait until Unity 8 and a way to replace Android with 
> Ubuntu on my phone.

I've had an Ubuntu phone for a good while now. Before you jump in, maybe
get a second phone and connect it via TING, assuming you are in the
United States. Try using it as a side project for a while and see how
you feel. 

I love the idea of an Ubuntu phone, but the whole thing feels like it is
in early alpha. It needs to become much much faster. And at this time so
many things are just applets.

I really wish Canonical would pour more resources into this. It is so
compelling but at the same time it just isn't ready to compete
effectively with Android or iOS. 

If they'd just get it working with 3G, or better yet LTE and get the
text messaging working well, I'd almost want to switch for those. But
the mail is also so poor and unreliable that it just can't be your
primary device. 

With both Android and iOS, if I were stuck with either of those for a
few days or even a week, I could get by. Not with this. And I'm sorry to
say it, but Canonical is moving so slowly on this. I've had it for many
months now and I can barely detect progress. I think Mark really needs a
big dose of reality. At this pace, this phone will never be ready for
prime time. They need to stop what they're doing and decide right now if
this is going to be a product or not. And if it is to be a product, they
need to step up and get it done yesterday, not 10 years from now. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

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#186432

Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-01-21, Jonathan N. Little <lws4art@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That is my point. You have options. You can even get it reconfigured

s/reconfigured/preconfigured/

>> with Kubuntu. For me, especially on a laptop I have found that I really
>> like Unity. Cannot wait until Unity 8 and a way to replace Android with
>> Ubuntu on my phone.
>
> I've had an Ubuntu phone for a good while now. Before you jump in, maybe
> get a second phone and connect it via TING, assuming you are in the
> United States. Try using it as a side project for a while and see how
> you feel.
>
> I love the idea of an Ubuntu phone, but the whole thing feels like it is
> in early alpha. It needs to become much much faster. And at this time so
> many things are just applets.

Because it still is alpha. Unity8 isn't really released yet. They still 
have to work out the DM situation.

>
> I really wish Canonical would pour more resources into this. It is so
> compelling but at the same time it just isn't ready to compete
> effectively with Android or iOS.

It is a tall order, Android and iOS have BIG head start, look at MS's 
"success" even with Big Bill's deep pockets. I think it will be a slow 
gradual process, but yes I wish it were faster getting there.

>
> If they'd just get it working with 3G, or better yet LTE and get the
> text messaging working well, I'd almost want to switch for those. But
> the mail is also so poor and unreliable that it just can't be your
> primary device.
>
> With both Android and iOS, if I were stuck with either of those for a
> few days or even a week, I could get by. Not with this. And I'm sorry to
> say it, but Canonical is moving so slowly on this. I've had it for many
> months now and I can barely detect progress. I think Mark really needs a
> big dose of reality. At this pace, this phone will never be ready for
> prime time. They need to stop what they're doing and decide right now if
> this is going to be a product or not. And if it is to be a product, they
> need to step up and get it done yesterday, not 10 years from now.
>

Maybe so. But if they could do it, it could be really cool.

-- 
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

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#186433

On 01/20/2016 09:52 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> Maybe so. But if they could do it

They can't.

> it could be really cool.

It won't be.
It'll be perpetual alpha.

They missed the boat. It's going by way of vapourware.

It's horrid. As Marek said, most things are just applets or shortcuts to 
web-based apps. They blew it by not following through fully with the 
Edge phone after it failed crowdfunding.

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#186439

stepore wrote:
>
> It's horrid. As Marek said, most things are just applets or shortcuts to
> web-based apps. They blew it by not following through fully with the
> Edge phone after it failed crowdfunding.

That is probably an actuate assessment. Too bad.

-- 
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

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#186442

On 2016-01-21, stepore <linshine@here.now> wrote:
> On 01/20/2016 09:52 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>> Maybe so. But if they could do it
>
> They can't.
>
>> it could be really cool.
>
> It won't be.
> It'll be perpetual alpha.
>
> They missed the boat. It's going by way of vapourware.

Sorry to say it, but at this point I have to agree. Maybe that will
change in the future... who knows. But for now and the entire time I
have owned the phone, it has barely moved forward. And in terms of email
and other basic features, it feels like it hasn't moved at all. 

> It's horrid. As Marek said, most things are just applets or shortcuts to 
> web-based apps. They blew it by not following through fully with the 
> Edge phone after it failed crowdfunding.

I truly recommend buying one of these phones for yourselves. The best
way to see this is to experience it for yourselves. Would love to be
wrong on this. And believe me, the second I see real progress, I'll be
the guy in the bell tower spreading the good word. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

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#186441

On 2016-01-21, Jonathan N. Little <lws4art@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-01-21, Jonathan N. Little <lws4art@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That is my point. You have options. You can even get it reconfigured
>
> s/reconfigured/preconfigured/
>
>>> with Kubuntu. For me, especially on a laptop I have found that I really
>>> like Unity. Cannot wait until Unity 8 and a way to replace Android with
>>> Ubuntu on my phone.
>>
>> I've had an Ubuntu phone for a good while now. Before you jump in, maybe
>> get a second phone and connect it via TING, assuming you are in the
>> United States. Try using it as a side project for a while and see how
>> you feel.
>>
>> I love the idea of an Ubuntu phone, but the whole thing feels like it is
>> in early alpha. It needs to become much much faster. And at this time so
>> many things are just applets.
>
> Because it still is alpha. Unity8 isn't really released yet. They still 
> have to work out the DM situation.
>
>>
>> I really wish Canonical would pour more resources into this. It is so
>> compelling but at the same time it just isn't ready to compete
>> effectively with Android or iOS.
>
> It is a tall order, Android and iOS have BIG head start, look at MS's 
> "success" even with Big Bill's deep pockets. I think it will be a slow 
> gradual process, but yes I wish it were faster getting there.

I used the Windows phone up until I switched to Linux almost 2.5 years
ago. I used an AT&T Lumia 950 and then later a Verizon Lumia, I forget
the number of the phone, but I still have them both in a drawer. They
are not activated anymore but I still have them. 

When I left the Lumia I think it had finally got group SMS or something
like that. I don't honestly remember. Aside from that the phone itself
was fine. And the camera Nokia used in my humble opinion was simply
second to none. Better than the iPhone or Android at the time. When I
switched off it the camera was the sole feature I missed. The concept of
lenses and the camera itself should have got more good press for
Microsoft / Nokia because they got that so right on. 

The tiles everyone hates in Windows 8 and 10 if you could tablet mode,
actually work quite well in the phone interface. Microsoft also had a
good method of letting you see all things related to a contact, which
for business people I also think is a feature that blows away anything
on the iPhone or Android. So basically, Microsoft / Nokia had a couple
good features that are ahead of the competition. As for apps, they
didn't have support from say Pandora at the time I used the phone, but a
3rd party made a compatible app which was pretty good so I didn't mind
not having true Pandora. Later they got true Pandora. 

But as you say, even Microsoft with their billions couldn't make a dent.
Personally I don't understand that. Microsoft with every update had
nothing to show for it. It would take 6 months to get an update and once
you got it, you could hardly tell what was updated. You'd have to have
someone point out what was changed. Perhaps it was mostly the plumbing
and not the things that we see and use as consumers. Either way,
development feels so slow and boring that eventually what little support
they had from third party left.

They had to buy Nokia, rent the IP and go it alone which costs them
another 6.x billion dollars, which they recently took a write down on.
Basically, it is a big loss on paper. And they still have almost nothing
to sway users to switch to their platform. 

Now, the reason I wrote all that is to agree with a point you made, but
to also make a point. I agree, even with their billions they are having
a tough time. And the point I want to make is that even with their
billions they are having a tough time of it, BUT at least the phone is
polished and works well. They simply lack third party support. But the
phone itself is quite nice. As I said above, it even has a few features
that are far better than Android or iOS. Now that being said, I still
want an Ubuntu phone. 

I want one so bad I bought one and activated and use it. I have been
using it for more than 6 months now. I forget the date I bought it but
I've had it a good while now. The phone itself has been update a good
many times. And the apps have been all updated several times. But as I
said, don't take my word for it. By all means, buy one and use it as a
second phone for a while and see for yourself. 

It's so far from ready it blows my mind. It's Alpha and has been alpha
the whole time I have owned it. And Mark basically turned it over to the
community too early in my humble opinion. He should have done more of
the foundation work around it. 

Still, I'd love to see this work. I'd love a phone we can trust and that
is truly Linux at the core. A phone with a real terminal. A phone I can
dock and actually use like a lower powered computer. I like the ideas
but they need to move more quickly. At the pace they're going this is
never going to make it. 

Now, I'd agree that perhaps this phone is just for us Linux geeks. But
even as a Linux geek, I have to know that if I need to call 911 that the
phone will work. I have to trust it. I have to trust it will get every
email message sent to me. And right now, I kid you not, I can't trust it
even for that. It simply doesn't even work in the most fundamental way.
Which is why I call it alpha. How long is it going to be in alpha? 6
months? I already did 6 months? A year? I'm already approaching a year
with it. Two years? okay, maybe two years maybe more.

Are we going to celebrate 2017 and still be in alpha? What about 2018?
That's my point. It's insanely slow. For all know the smart phone fad
will die before Mark has a phone. 

Now don't get me wrong. I wrote rather nice things about it. I mean,
hell he has a phone. It is small device, and it makes calls, although
slowly and unreliable. But it is a phone. It is an accomplishment. I'm
just beside myself because I can't believe how slow they are to improve
upon it. I've completely updated it several times and wonder what the
heck got updated. Likely all the plumbing, but almost nothing I can
actually lay my hands on. And since the day I bought it, something as
fundamental as email is still no go. What's a phone without even the
most basic of apps? 

I think Canonical needs to decide what it wants. And then they need
leadership roles in the right places with an agenda to focus full time
on getting this done. Not this extremely slow pace at which is little
happens here and there over a year. Surely he sees his approach is too
slow and not going to work. Everyone at some point needs to be honest
with  themselves and take ownership of the situation. When they do that,
maybe we'll get a phone out of it. Until then I don't see this ever
happening not even in 5 years. That's how slow they are moving. 

>> If they'd just get it working with 3G, or better yet LTE and get the
>> text messaging working well, I'd almost want to switch for those. But
>> the mail is also so poor and unreliable that it just can't be your
>> primary device.
>>
>> With both Android and iOS, if I were stuck with either of those for a
>> few days or even a week, I could get by. Not with this. And I'm sorry to
>> say it, but Canonical is moving so slowly on this. I've had it for many
>> months now and I can barely detect progress. I think Mark really needs a
>> big dose of reality. At this pace, this phone will never be ready for
>> prime time. They need to stop what they're doing and decide right now if
>> this is going to be a product or not. And if it is to be a product, they
>> need to step up and get it done yesterday, not 10 years from now.
>>
>
> Maybe so. But if they could do it, it could be really cool.

I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see this happen. I wish it were
happening. I was totally excited to buy one and with every update I hope
to see real progress. But so far, all I've seen is the slow slow pace at
which they are working. And it just doesn't take a rocket scientist to
realize that at this rate, Canonical is never going to get there. They
may as well focus on JuJu and the cloud where they are actually doing
excellent work and getting things done. The phone almost feels as if it
were left for dead. He decided much too early that it is too big for
Canonical alone and gave it all to the community in the hopes that it
would progress quickly, but in all honesty, I think he did so too soon.
The resources needed and the pace needed are simply not there. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

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#186443

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 06:08:48 -0800
Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> I think Canonical needs to decide what it wants.

I'm pretty sure that bird has flown; they want business business, not
user business.  There's no money in simple users of /anything/ and lots
of it in business.  Mark wants more money, not less, and has yet to
figure out a good way to monetize Linux for the users.

Ubuntu ain't doing it whether on phones or computers.

Besides, if he focuses on users he gets users such as me who call him
out on the bullsnit he spews.  He really doesn't like that.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
Registered GNU/Linux user # 126326
Registered Ubuntu User (deprecated) # 2136

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#186445

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 06:08:48 -0800
> Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:
>
>> I think Canonical needs to decide what it wants.
>
> I'm pretty sure that bird has flown; they want business business, not
> user business.  There's no money in simple users of /anything/ and lots
> of it in business.  Mark wants more money, not less, and has yet to
> figure out a good way to monetize Linux for the users.
>

So. A lot of products and services that consumers enjoy are byproducts 
of things developed for businesses with main profits derived from 
businesses. Quite evident from the 2-tiered pricing.

> Ubuntu ain't doing it whether on phones or computers.

For phone you have a point, not sure about computers.

>
> Besides, if he focuses on users he gets users such as me who call him
> out on the bullsnit he spews.  He really doesn't like that.

Why must all distros conform to your specifications? I thought Linux was 
all about choice? What is wrong with a distro experimenting with a 
different approach?

-- 
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

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#186446

On 01/21/2016 07:48 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> Why must all distros conform to your specifications? I thought Linux was
> all about choice? What is wrong with a distro experimenting with a
> different approach?
>

Big +1 to that.
Not even sure why Cybe is even in this NG anymore?
Don't like Ubuntu, fine; move on!

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#186451

stepore wrote:
> On 01/21/2016 07:48 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>> Why must all distros conform to your specifications? I thought Linux was
>> all about choice? What is wrong with a distro experimenting with a
>> different approach?
>>
>
> Big +1 to that.
> Not even sure why Cybe is even in this NG anymore?
> Don't like Ubuntu, fine; move on!

Yes, I'm a little disappointing in him. Maybe that damn "Intolerance" 
disease that seems to inflict loud Americans is contagious...

-- 
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

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#186454

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:56:19 -0500
"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> wrote:

> stepore wrote:
> > On 01/21/2016 07:48 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:  
> >> Why must all distros conform to your specifications? I thought
> >> Linux was all about choice? What is wrong with a distro
> >> experimenting with a different approach?
> >>  
> >
> > Big +1 to that.
> > Not even sure why Cybe is even in this NG anymore?
> > Don't like Ubuntu, fine; move on!  
> 
> Yes, I'm a little disappointing in him. Maybe that damn "Intolerance"
> disease that seems to inflict loud Americans is contagious...
> 
		;-]

...but, but I have an /AGENDA/!   ...because I saw enough to change my
mind.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that
there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy with the proof."
	J. K. Galbraith

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#186452

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:01:26 -0800
stepore <linshine@here.now> wrote:

> On 01/21/2016 07:48 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> > Why must all distros conform to your specifications? I thought
> > Linux was all about choice? What is wrong with a distro
> > experimenting with a different approach?
> >  
> 
> Big +1 to that.
> Not even sure why Cybe is even in this NG anymore?
> Don't like Ubuntu, fine; move on!

After having to explain this to trolls so often I'm a little surprised
to be doing it again, but, OK:
I see only, "Ubuntu," in the name of the newsgroup, not, "advocacy,"
nor, "niceness," nor, "lovers."  It only says, "ubuntu."  There's the
reason in simple terms.  I'm here for Ubuntu.  To speak against it (or
at least its creator).  Nowhere is there any indication that I
shouldn't do so.

I am (still) here because I wish to discuss Ubuntu and the way it is
antithetical to the ideas of open software and the free part of
software freedom.

Having been with Ubuntu since (very near to) the beginning I think I
have a fairly unique user perspective.  I at least /do/ remember all the
things that Mark or Canonandonical or the Ubu team have done over the
years which were, at the very best, dubious in intent.

The OS they made was wonderful up until I left it and I'm sure it is
still just as good if not better (after all, its parent, Debian, is
lots better each year).  

Let me be even more clear:
I like Ubuntu and respect the work involved.  
I don't like $huttleworth nor his take on open source nor his being a
gender bigot (at least) and taking most of a year to 'get it' and
grudgingly apologize, nor his take on spyware, nor his stance on using
other programmer's work (Banshee) to monetize his own company, nor his, 
"erm, we have root," statement, nor his lack of any real giving back to
the Linux community, nor his characterization of any who disagree with
him as an, "open source, "tea party."

There's really quite a bit more.

I try to avoid knowingly supporting bigots and misogynists and Mark
shows many signs of being both.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
Registered GNU/Linux user # 126326
Registered Ubuntu User (deprecated) # 2136

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